Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Bacle]

 

[Bear Ribs]

If the founding fathers owned personal cannons, then we should own personal tanks.

I mean, they owned personal Warships, and nearly every civilian merchant vessel was armed with at least token naval artillery so...

 

[Bacle]

I mean, they owned personal Warships, and nearly every civilian merchant vessel was armed with at least token naval artillery so...

I draw the line at CBRN and AA missiles; if you can afford a tank or howitzer, go for it, but privately owned Patriot batteries or nukes are a different matter.

 

[Bear Ribs]

I draw the line at CBRN and AA missiles; if you can afford a tank or howitzer, go for it, but privately owned Patriot batteries or nukes are a different matter.

You wouldn't trust Qyjibo with the ability to launch nukes at things she doesn't like?

 

[Buba]

You wouldn't trust Qyjibo with the ability to launch nukes at things she doesn't like?

Making trembling SB members whisper to one another in small font PMs - "that's the third nuke today, PMT this month really bad, huh?!?"

 

[Marduk]

You wouldn't trust Qyjibo with the ability to launch nukes at things she doesn't like?

I draw the line at CBRN and AA missiles; if you can afford a tank or howitzer, go for it, but privately owned Patriot batteries or nukes are a different matter.

Frankly the worst case of high terrorism potential to price ratio is with cheap personal or light vehicle explosive weapons and some simpler WMDs. Think stuff third world militias use - RPGs, Grads, mortars, VBIEDs, mines.
Patriot battery? If you can afford that, your name is Bezos, Musk, Trump or something like that.
Also 2 of those 3 own a bunch of conventional ICBMs in all but name already.
Even for a non-obsolete tank you have to be a multimillionaire.

 

[Zachowon]

Frankly the worst case of high terrorism potential to price ratio is with cheap personal or light vehicle explosive weapons and some simpler WMDs. Think stuff third world militias use - RPGs, Grads, mortars, VBIEDs, mines.
Patriot battery? If you can afford that, your name is Bezos, Musk, Trump or something like that.
Also 2 of those 3 own a bunch of conventional ICBMs in all but name already.
Even for a non-obsolete tank you have to be a multimillionaire.

Not true.
Unless you count a T72 as obsolete then nevermind

 

[Marduk]

Not true.
Unless you count a T72 as obsolete then nevermind

The cheap ones are fit for a museum, and the not obsolete ones still go into millions because state of art thermals and the like cost a fortune no matter whether you plan to stick them on a T-72 or a Leopard 2.

The Czech Republic to Update 90 T-72B Tanks For Ukraine Worth 1 Million Dollars Each: the Arrival Dates of Vehles Are Named | Defense Express

The transfer of tanks is a joint program of the USA and the Netherlands, which allocate funds, and the Czech Republic, which will carry out the modernization of T-72 tanks for Ukraine

en.defence-ua.com

Updating not even crappiest T-72 models around to modern tank standards apparently costs $1m per tank.

 

[Blasterbot]

I draw the line at CBRN and AA missiles; if you can afford a tank or howitzer, go for it, but privately owned Patriot batteries or nukes are a different matter.

then we would need to amend the constitution. I agree that I don't like the idea of nuclear, biological and certain chemical armaments for the average joe. 2A is pretty clear that all arms are lawful though. probably would get put on a list if you tried to get them.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Estonia and Latvia apparently downgraded their relations with Russia.





Also Estonia reportedly floating the idea of doing this, extending its zone of maritime control in the Gulf of Finland.

 

[Bacle]

For those who thought Ukraine wasn't doing anything to purge corruption:

Top Ukrainian officials quit in anti-corruption drive

A top aide and deputy defence minister are among those to resign as Kyiv tackles corruption reports.

www.bbc.com

Ongoing purge of state officials caught in bribery and corruption scandals is underway, and is not holding back.

"Officials at all levels have been constantly warned through official and unofficial channels: focus on the war, help the victims, reduce bureaucracy and stop doing dubious business.

"Many of them have actually listened, but some, unfortunately, did not," he said in a Telegram statement.

"If it doesn't work in a civilised way, it will be done according to the laws of wartime. This applies both to recent purchases of generators and to fresh scandals in the ministry of defence."

 

[LordsFire]

For those who thought Ukraine wasn't doing anything to purge corruption:

Top Ukrainian officials quit in anti-corruption drive

A top aide and deputy defence minister are among those to resign as Kyiv tackles corruption reports.

www.bbc.com

Ongoing purge of state officials caught in bribery and corruption scandals is underway, and is not holding back.

If Zelensky can actually change the culture of corruption there, that'll cement him as a legend within his nation's history. He's already demonstrated that he's a good war leader, but if he can do more than that, rather than turn into just another 'good for winning the war, but just led back to corrupt 'business as usual' afterwards, it could actually transform the nation for the better as a whole.

 

[Bacle]

If Zelensky can actually change the culture of corruption there, that'll cement him as a legend within his nation's history. He's already demonstrated that he's a good war leader, but if he can do more than that, rather than turn into just another 'good for winning the war, but just led back to corrupt 'business as usual' afterwards, it could actually transform the nation for the better as a whole.

In an address on Sunday, Mr Zelensky promised there would be "no return to what used to be in the past, to the way various people close to state institutions" used to live.

There will be no return to pre-war corruption levels, if Zelensky is able to make this stick culturally.

 

[Marduk]

If Zelensky can actually change the culture of corruption there, that'll cement him as a legend within his nation's history. He's already demonstrated that he's a good war leader, but if he can do more than that, rather than turn into just another 'good for winning the war, but just led back to corrupt 'business as usual' afterwards, it could actually transform the nation for the better as a whole.

There will be no return to pre-war corruption levels, if Zelensky is able to make this stick culturally.

There is no particular reason why would it not be possible for Ukraine to take the same road that the rest of ex-Soviet\ex-WP countries who are now EU and NATO members took after 1991, especially after cutting itself off from Moscow like the others did.

 

[Buba]

Ukraine already in 2022 was a different place than in 2014. The power of klepocrats like Madam Fancy Braids had weakened, Ukraine was taking steps to overcome its close to failed state status.
Also, like I've said before - this war is a national identity forming event. And simply out of sheer spite many Ukrainians will be very "western". Same as previously in Georgia, Putin wasted all pro-Russian sentiments.

 

[ATP]

Ukraine already in 2022 was a different place than in 2014. The power of klepocrats like Madam Fancy Braids had weakened, Ukraine was taking steps to overcome its close to failed state status.
Also, like I've said before - this war is a national identity forming event. And simply out of sheer spite many Ukrainians will be very "western". Same as previously in Georgia, Putin wasted all pro-Russian sentiments.

True.I once joked,that he could be chineese agent send to destroy Moscov - but,it could be true.
P.S Why not CIA? becouse he would accidentally create super Moscov trying to destroy it,then.
But maybe Mossad? they ,unlike CIA,are competent.

 

[prinCZess]

For those who thought Ukraine wasn't doing anything to purge corruption:

Top Ukrainian officials quit in anti-corruption drive

A top aide and deputy defence minister are among those to resign as Kyiv tackles corruption reports.

www.bbc.com

Ongoing purge of state officials caught in bribery and corruption scandals is underway, and is not holding back.

I would caution/be-skeptical of this just because I'm entirely uncertain of how reliably non-corrupt Zelensky himself if.

That said, he probably has more going for him in that respect being a political-outsider former celebrity comedian instead of an institutional politician who came up through the 'usual' political-bribery manner that dominated or a business oligarch himself ala Poroshenko before him. So hope is perhaps as appropriate as skepticism.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

The one issue I have heard for Abrams is that due to it being a turbine, versus diesel like most tanks in Ukraine, fuel and engine maintiance logistics would be mush more demanding. And I have never heard of a diesel-operated Abrams, which might be why Ukraine really wants the Leopard 2A and it's mostly Germany complaining about the US not sending Abrams, not Ukraine itself.

The U.S. Army actually selected the diesel-powered GM design for the XM1 program, as Chrysler's turbine-powered rival was more expensive, less capable, and introduced significant technical risk with the turbine engine. However, then Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld single-handedly blocked the decision and forced the Army to select Chrysler's design, having been convinced by Deputy SecDef Bill CClements and Director of Defense Research and Engineering Malcolm Currie that a turbine engine should be adopted period.

The Abrams *could have* been converted to diesel in the 2000s with the common engine program for the Abrams and Crusader howitzer, however, a new gas turbine was selected instead. No other diesel conversion has been seriously considered since, although the occasional pundit suggests it.

Honestly, turbine engined tanks might make sense for the United States military with its massive budget and lavish logistics, but they're a poor decision for any other military in the world.

 

[Zachowon]

Abrams X has it

 

[The One Char]

The U.S. Army actually selected the diesel-powered GM design for the XM1 program, as Chrysler's turbine-powered rival was more expensive, less capable, and introduced significant technical risk with the turbine engine. However, then Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld single-handedly blocked the decision and forced the Army to select Chrysler's design, having been convinced by Deputy SecDef Bill CClements and Director of Defense Research and Engineering Malcolm Currie that a turbine engine should be adopted period.

So how big do you think the Bribe was?