Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Atarlost]

Russia is losing the conventional war until Putin, knowing the personal consequences of failure, uses nukes to win by obliterating Ukrainian forces. NATO does nothing out of realpolitik realization that while not retaliating proves nuclear blackmail works and causes mass proliferation and an increased risk of potential nuclear war in the future, retaliating causes definite nuclear war right now. Russian victory.

I find this one very unlikely. It requires all three Ukraine friendly nuclear powers to fail to recognize the inevitability of their enslavement if they allow nuclear blackmail to work on this scale and for Russia to assume they will do so because if Russia thinks that any one of them might launch its best chance for survival is to first strike all of them and hope they're all sleeping. I don't know how many transportation nexi and oil refineries have to glow in the dark for Russia to starve, but I expect it's substantially less than even the UK's 225. Possibly if they've closed their own western border by nuking Ukraine it might go as low as 25.

 

[Bacle]

I'm really not; the Maidan coup falls far short of an adequate excuse for what Putin/Russia has done in Ukraine. If they had gone in immediately after the coup, kept casualties to an absolute minimum, and avoided targeting the civilian population entirely? Then maybe; but that's not what's happened. That aside though, even back then my intent wasn't to say that the coup was an excuse; rather, it was an explanation (as the tail end of decades of NATO expansion, right up to Russia's border) for why they felt threatened, and did what they did. Much like how your post in another thread about how Japan was screwed in Versailles was an explanation for why they did what they did afterwards, but not an excuse.

Maidan was not Versailles, and it is a mistake to view Russian aggression as just a byproduct of that or pretend that the Russian/rebels had any moral high ground to stand on after the airliner shootdown.

You also completely skip over the whole 'survey's found gas/oil in Ukraine which would allow them to undercut Russia, and any whining about the Maidan by Moscow is cover for trying to gain control over those reserves. You didn't like the US fighting wars for oil in the MidEast, why are you so keen to give Russia more of a chance than you gave the US for similar moves.

And all that doesn't even cover that the Maidan happened because Moscow would not allow Ukrainian people to chart their own path, instead of being forced to act in Moscow's orbit/approval.

Fact of the matter is, the facts on the ground were irrelevant to what I was talking about; and there weren't that many to be had in the early days of the conflict anyways, unless you were willing to trust either the Russian or Ukrainian government's word as to what was happening. Which I did not. By the time what was happening become clearer, I had already long since been cussed out for arguing the nuances of why the conflict was happening, pointing out America's/the West in general's culpability in creating it, and not immediately jumping on the "Putin/Russia is Satan, and everyone/anything who opposes/is done to oppose him/them is automatically justified forever" bandwagon.

The 'facts on the ground' were never irrelevant to what you were saying, you just didn't want to hear them when they showed Ukraine was getting its shit together, that Russia winning wasn't inevitable, and that going 'but Maidan' wasn't going to fly with what was going on.

And that's the thing, you want to be able to go 'but Maidan', and not get called out for what a bullshit justification you keep clinging to. That's the real issue, and why you got cussed out, and why you continue with the 'facts on the ground don't matter, only my feelings of being insulted'; because admitting you fucked up and keep believing Ru propaganda doesn't seem to cross your mind, and you just get angry at people who do try to inform you.

I've tried numerous times to try to pierce that veil of willing disinterest in facts on the ground in Ukraine and willing gobbling up of Ru propaganda, and it doesn't get through no matter how nicely I or anyone else says things. I was willing to admit when I was wrong about Putin not invading, and I didn't cling to my past views out of pride or stubbornness; why can't you own up to being wrong about most things regarding the situation in Ukraine.

You know me Bacle; or at least, you ought to by now. I've always believed that the moment you start attacking someone personally, that's it; you've lost the argument. Because at that point? It's not about the argument anymore; it's about you versus them.

I know you are stubborn, set in your ways/views, and try to act like 'hurt feelings' matter more than 'facts on the ground', and I have repeatedly tried to politely and civilly inform you of why you are wrong and why you are buying Ru propaganda rather uncritically.

You even admitted before that most of this comes down to how jaded you are about the domestic situation, which I said I understood at the time; I also said you were acting foolish then, and are still acting foolish about the Ukraine situation to this day.

This is about you being unwilling to admit when you are wrong, because the people who told you, and showed you, that you were wrong, hurt your feelings because they had less pateince with your foolishness than I do.

 

[Marduk]

Possible outcomes as I see it:

• Russia loses the conventional war. Putin, who tied his reputation to winning looks weak to his compatriots and is assassinated, then posthumously blamed for everything so trade can be restored. Ukrainian victory.

Who takes power, how and then does that?

• Russia is losing the conventional war until Putin, knowing the personal consequences of failure, uses nukes to win by obliterating Ukrainian forces. NATO does nothing out of realpolitik realization that while not retaliating proves nuclear blackmail works and causes mass proliferation and an increased risk of potential nuclear war in the future, retaliating causes definite nuclear war right now. Russian victory.

Not so simple. Due to low force concentrations, it would take a lot of nukes. NATO can't stand to just ignore both the literal and proverbial fallout.

• Russia is losing the conventional war until Putin, knowing the personal consequences of failure, uses nukes to win by obliterating Ukrainian forces. NATO retaliates. Everyone dies. Mutual defeat.

NATO threatened conventional, not nuclear retaliation if he does that.

• Putin is assassinated by one of his underlings, either an oligarch whose personal wealth was being destroyed by the sanctions or a military commander who feared they'd be the next victim of Putin's loyalty purges, who proceeds to declare themselves the new Russian leader, then end the war and posthumously blame everything on their predecessor so trade can be restored. Ukrainian victory.

Don't think any oligarch has the means. Someone with good connection to the security services would have to arrange it.

• NATO's unity is broken as economic collapse from sanctions cause the election of virulently anti-American right-wing populists in Europe on platforms of restoring affordable gas and blaming the yanks for blowing up their pipelines, flooding them with migrants from their wars, demanding they give up their colonial empires after WW2, unwanted missionary efforts to convert them to their new state religion, etc. Europe is no longer assisting Ukrainian forces or allowing America to use them as a staging ground to do so. Russian victory.

Not happening. As far as economic effects of sanctions go, they are very uneven across NATO, the pipeline blown up by unknown preparators was not "theirs" but of one particular country, and even that one particular country (and few others too) are unwilling to lift ideological green levies to make the supposedly breaking energy prices lower - a strange crisis indeed.

 

[Terthna]

Maidan was not Versailles, and it is a mistake to view Russian aggression as just a byproduct of that or pretend that the Russian/rebels had any moral high ground to stand on after the airliner shootdown.

No it wasn't; but it's also equally a mistake to view Japanese aggression as solely a byproduct of how they were treated in the aftermath of World War 1. They had ambitions of becoming an empire, and a fanatical belief in their emperor's divinity.

You also completely skip over the whole 'survey's found gas/oil in Ukraine which would allow them to undercut Russia, and any whining about the Maidan by Moscow is cover for trying to gain control over those reserves. You didn't like the US fighting wars for oil in the MidEast, why are you so keen to give Russia more of a chance than you gave the US for similar moves.

I'm not; that's just one of the reasons Russia wanted to keep Ukraine in their sphere of influence, which the coup government threatened to take them out of.

And all that doesn't even cover that the Maidan happened because Moscow would not allow Ukrainian people to chart their own path, instead of being forced to act in Moscow's orbit/approval.

The sad fact of the matter is that Ukraine was never going to chart their own path; the coup was about wanting to leave Russia's sphere of influence for America's. Which, to be fair, seems to be working out for them; as Russia is proving a lot weaker than anticipated.

The 'facts on the ground' were never irrelevant to what you were saying, you just didn't want to hear them when they showed Ukraine was getting its shit together, that Russia winning wasn't inevitable, and that going 'but Maidan' wasn't going to fly with what was going on.

At the time, Russia not winning seemed like pure fantasy; I won't apologize for disbelieving what appeared to be propaganda on the part of the Ukrainian government. Also, they were irrelevant to what I chose to focus on; what lead up to the conflict.

And that's the thing, you want to be able to go 'but Maidan', and not get called out for what a bullshit justification you keep clinging to. That's the real issue, and why you got cussed out, and why you continue with the 'facts on the ground don't matter, only my feelings of being insulted'; because admitting you fucked up and keep believing Ru propaganda doesn't seem to cross your mind, and you just get angry at people who do try to inform you.

I'm not trying to justify anything; I'm just pointing that you're being a jerk, and fighting strawmen.

I've tried numerous times to try to pierce that veil of willing disinterest in facts on the ground in Ukraine and willing gobbling up of Ru propaganda, and it doesn't get through no matter how nicely I or anyone else says things. I was willing to admit when I was wrong about Putin not invading, and I didn't cling to my past views out of pride or stubbornness; why can't you own up to being wrong about most things regarding the situation in Ukraine.

No, what you've done is try to paint a picture of me as some pro-Russia fanatic who refuses to accept that they're in the wrong, and getting their butts kicked. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is wrong; I'm not disputing that.

I know you are stubborn, set in your ways/views, and try to act like 'hurt feelings' matter more than 'facts on the ground', and I have repeatedly tried to politely and civilly inform you of why you are wrong and why you are buying Ru propaganda rather uncritically.

You even admitted before that most of this comes down to how jaded you are about the domestic situation, which I said I understood at the time; I also said you were acting foolish then, and are still acting foolish about the Ukraine situation to this day.

This is about you being unwilling to admit when you are wrong, because the people who told you, and showed you, that you were wrong, hurt your feelings because they had less pateince with your foolishness than I do.

It's like I'm arguing with an NPC; I legitimately have no idea who the heck you think you're talking to here. This is that tunnel vision I was talking about; you keep arguing with a strawman, and nothing I say matters. So, what do you want from me?

 

[AmosTrask]

Russia is losing the conventional war until Putin, knowing the personal consequences of failure, uses nukes to win by obliterating Ukrainian forces. NATO retaliates. Everyone dies. Mutual defeat.

Wrong.
NATO No Fly Zone interdiction extended over Ukraine and Russia. Russia loses all air assets from interdiction followed by 99% of its land based ICBM fleet and naval ships when the Fins and Norse surge over the border directly for the Kola peninsula. Where the Russian fleet has its single non-icebound Atlantic port. NATO air, water assets will be sinking all Russian ships worldwide. And also where the Soviets for some reason decided to build the majority of their ICBM launch silos.

NATO armies rush into Ukraine and massacre the pathetically ineffective troops Russia has and shows them how to fight a real war. We'd be spearheading to Moscow within a month.

Allied assets worldwide will be blockading all Russian ports.

 

[Vaermina]

At the time, Russia not winning seemed like pure fantasy; I won't apologize for disbelieving what appeared to be propaganda on the part of the Ukrainian government. Also, they were irrelevant to what I chose to focus on; what lead up to the conflict.

Russia lost the ability to win on Day 3 of the invasion...

Even assuming Russia had everything as it was listed on paper, they just straight up didn't have the men to hold Ukraine against an actively resisting population. At best they were looking at Afghanistan 2.0, were their entire military would have to sit on and dump money into Ukraine for decades.

 

[LordsFire]

facepalm. Are you even capable of making an argument that isn't a strawman?
This is getting ridiculous.

The statement was not "all information is propaganda"
The statement was "most sources who are people who work a full time job spreading information are propagandists".

Learn to communicate more clearly rather than claim other people are strawmanning.

I'm sick of reiterating this argument with you.

 

[LordsFire]

No, what you've done is try to paint a picture of me as some pro-Russia fanatic who refuses to accept that they're in the wrong, and getting their butts kicked. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is wrong; I'm not disputing that.

If you don't want people to think you're buying Russian propaganda...

That aside though, even back then my intent wasn't to say that the coup was an excuse; rather, it was an explanation (as the tail end of decades of NATO expansion, right up to Russia's border) for why they felt threatened, and did what they did.

...Then stop dropping lines like this. The only thing that NATO expanding threatened Russia with, was no longer being able to bully their neighbors so easily. The idea it actually threatened them in any meaningful way is purely Russian propaganda.

NATO is a defensive pact, with non-aggression rules. If you go start a war yourself, NATO is not obliged to help, and anyone paying any attention to the culture of its primary members, would know that NATO as a whole has not been interested in invading Russia.

Granted, the Poles and other former victims of the Soviet union might want to get some revenge, but they don't carry the majority weight, and went in knowing they'd be giving up the shot at that in exchange for defensive guarantees.

Russia only complained about 'feeling threatened' for political points, and to try to buy sympathy from gullible people in the West. And it apparently has worked on you.

 

[Bacle]

At the time, Russia not winning seemed like pure fantasy; I won't apologize for disbelieving what appeared to be propaganda on the part of the Ukrainian government. Also, they were irrelevant to what I chose to focus on; what lead up to the conflict.

You chose to focus on just the Maidan as a glowie op aspect, and seemed to ignore most other parts of the argument, including the airliner shootdown.

You can say you bought the Ru armies propaganda about it's capabilities (not that the only person in the world who did, including most of the UN), however you continued well past when you should have and kept being dismissive of anything that Ukraine had to say even when evidence kept mounting that Russia was a paper tiger only good at committing war crimes and stealing dishwashers and children.

I think that's the real kicker for me, was the ignoring of the mass kidnappings as the Russian forces advanced; that's why I've said you seemed pro-Russia.

I'm not trying to justify anything; I'm just pointing that you're being a jerk, and fighting strawmen.

No, what you've done is try to paint a picture of me as some pro-Russia fanatic who refuses to accept that they're in the wrong, and getting their butts kicked. What Russia is doing in Ukraine is wrong; I'm not disputing that.

You have come across as someone who still wanted to try to negotiate with the Nazi's after they invaded Poland and were building up forces to make a play for France.

I know you don't mean to, and that is why I have repeatedly tried to civilly and politely inform you about facts on the ground not matching up to the narrative you were buying about Russia's strength/justifications.

This war could end tomorrow if Russia just ceased fire and withdrew their troops back behind 2014 borders. It is not Ukraine that is escalating things or acting as an aggressor, and Putin's lies are falling apart domestically. There is a good chance we can root the commies out of Moscow itself without any NATO forces needing to be on the ground, with how many Russian POWs and expats have now seen that Emperor Putin has no clothes and want what the west has for people back home.

It's like I'm arguing with an NPC; I legitimately have no idea who the heck you think you're talking to here. This is that tunnel vision I was talking about; you keep arguing with a strawman, and nothing I say matters. So, what do you want from me?

I feel like I'm arguing with one of the Leftist master degree candidates at that radical master's program I once tried out. I do not like that feeling from someone who came from the same SB bullshit that formed this site, and I have tried repeatedly to inform you, because I know you are not a monster or someone who seems like a Vatnik, just utterly jaded and stubborn.

What I want from you to to stop fucking going 'but Maidan' at this point; any western glowie involvement does not matter anymore, the corruption has been rooted out by force thanks to Zelensky taking Western advice after the invasion kicked off. That way we can have reasonable conversations again and I won't feel worried about you seeming like you are pro-Russia.

The war is here whether we like it or not, and for once the west is backing the righteous side in the time when it matters most.

 

[ATP]

Possible outcomes as I see it:

• Russia loses the conventional war. Putin, who tied his reputation to winning looks weak to his compatriots and is assassinated, then posthumously blamed for everything so trade can be restored. Ukrainian victory.
• Russia is losing the conventional war until Putin, knowing the personal consequences of failure, uses nukes to win by obliterating Ukrainian forces. NATO does nothing out of realpolitik realization that while not retaliating proves nuclear blackmail works and causes mass proliferation and an increased risk of potential nuclear war in the future, retaliating causes definite nuclear war right now. Russian victory.
• Russia is losing the conventional war until Putin, knowing the personal consequences of failure, uses nukes to win by obliterating Ukrainian forces. NATO retaliates. Everyone dies. Mutual defeat.
• Putin is assassinated by one of his underlings, either an oligarch whose personal wealth was being destroyed by the sanctions or a military commander who feared they'd be the next victim of Putin's loyalty purges, who proceeds to declare themselves the new Russian leader, then end the war and posthumously blame everything on their predecessor so trade can be restored. Ukrainian victory.
• NATO's unity is broken as economic collapse from sanctions cause the election of virulently anti-American right-wing populists in Europe on platforms of restoring affordable gas and blaming the yanks for blowing up their pipelines, flooding them with migrants from their wars, demanding they give up their colonial empires after WW2, unwanted missionary efforts to convert them to their new state religion, etc. Europe is no longer assisting Ukrainian forces or allowing America to use them as a staging ground to do so. Russian victory.

1.Nope,next kgb leader would invade Ukraine 10-20 year later.Ukraine still lost.
2.Then Moscov still lost its army and part of nukes.Ukraine is destroyed,but Moscov still lost.
3.Nope.Moscov could have no more then 500 working missiles.Ukraine,Poland,England would burn - but USA would survive without Washington and NY.and Moscov state woud be gone.
I would name it as Poland defeat,but USA victory.
4.Nope.That oligarch would act as "liberal" ,made army strong,and after 10-20 years invade again ,this time winning.Ukraine still lost,only 10-20 year later.
5.Poland would still deliver weapons to Ukraine,unless german agents take over/Tusk etc/
In that case,you are partially right - but,becouse Moscov would lost its entire army by that time,i would not name it as victory.

 

[ShadowsOfParadox]

The statement was not "all information is propaganda"

...So because they get paid, regardless of who pays them or why or how, it's propaganda.

Yes. Exactly.

Give me an example of information that does not trace directly to someone getting paid.

 

[AmosTrask]

@Terthna just going by what you've said in the previous 4 pages you come off as a Putin Apologist and a rabid war crimes supporting Vatnik. If you don't want the label Commie Loving Putz then change what you are saying.

 

[Terthna]

You chose to focus on just the Maidan as a glowie op aspect, and seemed to ignore most other parts of the argument, including the airliner shootdown.

You can say you bought the Ru armies propaganda about it's capabilities (not that the only person in the world who did, including most of the UN), however you continued well past when you should have and kept being dismissive of anything that Ukraine had to say even when evidence kept mounting that Russia was a paper tiger only good at committing war crimes and stealing dishwashers and children.

I think that's the real kicker for me, was the ignoring of the mass kidnappings as the Russian forces advanced; that's why I've said you seemed pro-Russia.

Keep in mind, I left the thread really early in the conflict; the mass kidnappings (which I acknowledge has happened, for the record) hadn't happened yet. The last thing I remember people talking about was those Ukrainians on that island telling the Russians to "go fuck themselves", and the civilian building that may have been housing Ukrainian troops and their supplies getting bombed.

You have come across as someone who still wanted to try to negotiate with the Nazi's after they invaded Poland and were building up forces to make a play for France.

I know you don't mean to, and that is why I have repeatedly tried to civilly and politely inform you about facts on the ground not matching up to the narrative you were buying about Russia's strength/justifications.

This war could end tomorrow if Russia just ceased fire and withdrew their troops back behind 2014 borders. It is not Ukraine that is escalating things or acting as an aggressor, and Putin's lies are falling apart domestically. There is a good chance we can root the commies out of Moscow itself without any NATO forces needing to be on the ground, with how many Russian POWs and expats have now seen that Emperor Putin has no clothes and want what the west has for people back home.

I'll grant you that I've been dancing around what to do about what we should do about the conflict; I just can't see any way around the fact that Russia has nukes, regardless of their now glaring conventional weaknesses. And I can't see Russia backing down either, even if by some miracle Putin himself decides to. Plus, there's the fact that our economy is creeping closer and closer to total collapse, making it so that we cannot afford to be giving things to Ukraine; selling things to them is a different matter though, and if we could just keep to doing that while Ukraine manages to push Russia out on their own otherwise, I think we might be able to keep the conflict from escalating into global nuclear war.

I feel like I'm arguing with one of the Leftist master degree candidates at that radical master's program I once tried out. I do not like that feeling from someone who came from the same SB bullshit that formed this site, and I have tried repeatedly to inform you, because I know you are not a monster or someone who seems like a Vatnik, just utterly jaded and stubborn.

What I want from you to to stop fucking going 'but Maidan' at this point; any western glowie involvement does not matter anymore, the corruption has been rooted out by force thanks to Zelensky taking Western advice after the invasion kicked off. That way we can have reasonable conversations again and I won't feel worried about you seeming like you are pro-Russia.

The war is here whether we like it or not, and for once the west is backing the righteous side in the time when it matters most.

That's the thing; I did stop. Seriously; when was the last time I brought it up? This whole tangent started with me using how I was treated in that thread as an example of what happens when you hurl insults at someone who disagrees with you; they stop listening. Regardless of whether or not you think what I was going on about was bullshit or not, the way I was treated there did nothing to convince me I was in any way wrong; if anything, it made me want to spite those who treated me poorly at every turn.

 

[Marduk]

I'll grant you that I've been dancing around what to do about what we should do about the conflict; I just can't see any way around the fact that Russia has nukes, regardless of their now glaring conventional weaknesses. And I can't see Russia backing down either, even if by some miracle Putin himself decides to.

Some nice history study aid questions required:
What ways around the fact that USA is a nuclear power did China find in 1950?
What ways around the fact that USA is a nuclear power did China and Soviet Union find in the Vietnam War?

Plus, there's the fact that our economy is creeping closer and closer to total collapse, making it so that we cannot afford to be giving things to Ukraine; selling things to them is a different matter though, and if we could just keep to doing that while Ukraine manages to push Russia out on their own otherwise, I think we might be able to keep the conflict from escalating into global nuclear war.

You may want to take a closer look into the numbers involved. The Ukraine stuff and even Russia sanctions are pennies compared to the economic burdens USA imposes on itself for purely ideological reasons, but the attention these things get, for some nefarious reasons, is inversely proportional.

Biden Announces $2 Trillion Climate Plan (Published 2020)

Joe Biden’s plan connects tackling climate change with the economic recovery from the coronavirus crisis, while also addressing racism. The proposal drew praise from his onetime critics.

www.nytimes.com

Total US aid to Ukraine through the war is about 2% of that. Will it reach 5%?
Also there is the financial trick of giving Ukraine stuff that would be scrapped soon anyway due to age\replacement, though in aid figures it's shown at sticker price.
Why is this not getting the lion's share of attention?

 

[Bacle]

Keep in mind, I left the thread really early in the conflict; the mass kidnappings (which I acknowledge has happened, for the record) hadn't happened yet. The last thing I remember people talking about was those Ukrainians on that island telling the Russians to "go fuck themselves", and the civilian building that may have been housing Ukrainian troops and their supplies getting bombed.

So you left the convo about the actual conflict extremely early on, became willing ignorant to the realities on the ground out of stubborn spite, and yet still wanted to have a political say about it here?

Is that a correct read of what actions and mindset you took?

I'll grant you that I've been dancing around what to do about what we should do about the conflict; I just can't see any way around the fact that Russia has nukes, regardless of their now glaring conventional weaknesses. And I can't see Russia backing down either, even if by some miracle Putin himself decides to. Plus, there's the fact that our economy is creeping closer and closer to total collapse, making it so that we cannot afford to be giving things to Ukraine; selling things to them is a different matter though, and if we could just keep to doing that while Ukraine manages to push Russia out on their own otherwise, I think we might be able to keep the conflict from escalating into global nuclear war.

You've been dancing around it because you didn't want to admit you were fooled early on, and became purposely uninformed about the realities on the ground, yet still wanted a political say here.

Russia cannot be allowed to keep illegally occupied lands, just because they hold gunpoint referendums and ethnic cleansing.

That's the thing; I did stop. Seriously; when was the last time I brought it up? This whole tangent started with me using how I was treated in that thread as an example of what happens when you hurl insults at someone who disagrees with you; they stop listening. Regardless of whether or not you think what I was going on about was bullshit or not, the way I was treated there did nothing to convince me I was in any way wrong; if anything, it made me want to spite those who treated me poorly at every turn.

Yes, we know you were spitefully ignorant, yet still wanted to speech on the subject here and spout discredited BS because you didn't want to look in the invasion thread out of pettiness and spite.

Neither you, nor DarthOne who I was originally replying to, seemed to have wanted to look at reality on the ground, and ignored the Invasion thread, while yet still wanting to speak on the political aspects of the conflict here.

I have tried to be polite and civil about the willful ignorance of some people who seem pro-Ru here, however at this point there is no excuse for it anymore, particularly if some does care enough to comment on the political aspects.

If I am using insults, it means I am out of patience with trying to humor willful ignorance when a person still feels the need to engage in the political aspects of it.

 

[StormEagle]

@Terthna just going by what you've said in the previous 4 pages you come off as a Putin Apologist and a rabid war crimes supporting Vatnik. If you don't want the label Commie Loving Putz then change what you are saying.

Would you jackasses kindly fuck off with calling everyone that disagrees with you on any point about this war a vatnik/Putin apologist.

Otherwise we, the people that disagree with you on some points about this war, are going to start calling all of you globohomo supporting tards.

You and Bacle are probably the most annoying chucklefucks in this thread. Right ahead of the turd flingers Marduk and Agent23.

 

[Bacle]

Would you jackasses kindly fuck off with calling everyone that disagrees with you on any point about this war a vatnik/Putin apologist.

Otherwise we, the people that disagree with you on some points about this war, are going to start calling all of you globohomo supporting tards.

You and Bacle are probably the most annoying chucklefucks in this thread. Right ahead of the turd flingers Marduk and Agent23.

I know after wasted years in the sand box a rather clear cut, righteous war of defense/independence that the West can support seems too good to be true. It is natural to be suspicious of the motives of people in DC after the stolen election, and some people in Ukraine before the corruption purges occurred were rather shady; I haven't forgotten how the Dems used the call to Zelensky to Impeach Trump.

And the economy sucks now, thanks to the impact from the Wu Flu and Biden's purposeful stupidity regarding US energy and resource production.

None of that changes that Ukraine is the good guy here and Russia is the bad guy, and what Russia has done and continues to do requires force and resources to stop, and repel from Ukraine's soil. Worry about the 'bill' once Russia has been pushed back to the 2014 borders, and no longer fires across their border into Ukraine, because cutting support for Ukraine will not fix a single fucking thing domestically, no matter how much fiscal conservatives want believe it could.

And if someone is a member of the 'Russia trad, West globohomo, thus Russia good' crowd, then they are an idiot.

 

[mrttao]

Give me an example of information that does not trace directly to someone getting paid.

1. since you ask so nicely. cell phone videos filmed by bystanders showing an event as it happens are an excellent example of information that does not trace directly to someone getting paid.

Although there should still be caution there too as we have seen the tech cartels deplatforming videos showing what they do not want. and thus only leave videos which are misleading due to the angle missing some critical stuff.
Or outright have companies like CNN edit then repost such videos and then having the tech cartels expunge the original unedited videos. Thus resulting in a fake video that looks authetic.

2. you misinterpret your quotes. "they" in the context of the quote chain you have given was specifically and explicitly referring to people who spend 40+ hours a week (full time job) working on information analysis and publishing. They release curated and filtered information for your entertainment. they are not in any way shape or form a primary source of information.

3. check your premises. By replying to me saying that all paid for sources are suspect, you demand for me to show sources that are not paid for... why would you make such a demand? Other than perhaps the assumption that
A. mythical "true facts" sources exist.
B. that I subscribe to some news channel which I believe to be said mythical "true facts" source.

Why do you assume that there must exist a source of information that is free of bias and agenda?
Why do you assume that I believe such a source exists?

 

[ShadowsOfParadox]

Why do you assume that there must exist a source of information that is free of bias and agenda?
Why do you assume that I believe such a source exists?

Because if you don't then your definition of propaganda includes literally everything.

since you ask so nicely. cell phone videos filmed by bystanders showing an event as it happens are an excellent example of information that does not trace directly to someone getting paid.

Ah yes, because no one is getting paid anywhere in that chain... except you know, all the people getting paid via whatever means they spread the video, and certainly, no one posting cell phone videos is getting paid to do so...

Also of course, you are ignoring that many of the OSINT people are LITERALLY USING CELL PHONE VIDEOS FROM BYSTANDERS.

you misinterpret your quotes. "they" in the context of the quote chain you have given was specifically and explicitly referring to people who spend 40+ hours a week (full time job) working on information analysis and publishing. They release curated and filtered information for your entertainment. they are not in any way shape or form a primary source of information.

Oh yes, every OSINT guy is spending 40+ hours a week doing this and nothing else, absolutely none of them are releasing one video a week while also doing a LP of Terra Invicta, an actual job, and other games on top of that. Certainly none of them explain exactly what sources they use and why and how they are using that data to come to conclusions. Absolutely none of them are giving you links directly to the databases so you can double check them. Certainly none of them have presented reasons Ukraine might lose. Absolutely all of them are just taking whatever the State Department says and regurgitating it. Certainly none of them could possibly be remotely credible.

No one has been claiming they are primary sources of information, just better than whatever the mainstream media is doing. And definitely better than Russian State TV.

 

[LTR]

Participants in this Discussion Need to Take a Step Back and Calm down. Stop with the Personal Attacks and Ad Hominems and Other Aggressive and Unproductive Shit Posting.

Try to Keep the Discussion (Relatively) Civil Henceforth or Threadbans Will Be Issued.