Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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Bacle said:
I'm fucking tired to of both Marduk's barely disguised desire to use US/NATO power to push Russia further from Poland's border via being OK with Ukraine coming in, and I'm really sick of Zach's 'playing dumb' routine when he damn well know better most of the time.

I do not want to die in nuclear hellfire, or increase the risk of it by pushing NATO further east, for more ungrateful Euro's who want to use the US populace as a hostage to keep Russia at bay, which is what NATO essentially is. Europe has no problem fighting to the last American, so I'm getting real tired of Euro's acting like we owe them that situation in perpetuity or owe admission to NATO to anyone who wants in.
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One of the major reasons US is not willing to effectively dissolve NATO and go "lol not our problem" at this is in hope of slightly increasing the chance that the EU will not go "lol not our problem" when some sort of confrontation around China\NK happens.
You know, that's kinda the point of an alliance.
 
Marduk said:
One of the major reasons US is not willing to effectively dissolve NATO and go "lol not our problem" at this is in hope of slightly increasing the chance that the EU will not go "lol not our problem" when some sort of confrontation around China\NK happens.
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Which is stupid, because frankly NK isn't Europe's problem.

China might be more of Europe's problem, but given how much some of Europe want's closer ties with China, I already expected everyone but the UK to be effectively neutral in that sort of conflict.

Edit: and hyper-focusing on 'alliances' is what got us WW1 and all it's wasteful stupidity.

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Bacle said:
Which is stupid, because frankly NK isn't Europe's problem.

China might be more of Europe's problem, but given how much some of Europe want's closer ties with China, I already expected everyone but the UK to be effectively neutral in that sort of conflict.

Edit: and hyper-focusing on 'alliances' is what got us WW1 and all it's wasteful stupidity.
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NK and China are about as separate issues as Belarus and Russia.
And no, China has its own usual trust\PR issues in Europe that absolutely can be leveraged, but following silly idealistic isolationism you're implying here would bury the chances of that.
It's no longer early XX century, USA is a superpower whether you like it or not, and that comes with certain perks and responsibilities. There's no going back to being just some mid to major power on the sidelines like in 1914, like Brazil is now, unless USA inflicts that on itself, and you sure as hell wouldn't enjoy the side effects.
 
Marduk said:
NK and China are about as separate issues as Belarus and Russia.
And no, China has its own usual trust\PR issues in Europe that absolutely can be leveraged, but following silly idealistic isolationism you're implying here would bury the chances of that.
It's no longer early XX century, USA is a superpower whether you like it or not, and that comes with certain perks and responsibilities. There's no going back to being just some mid to major power on the sidelines like in 1914, like Brazil is now, unless USA inflicts that on itself, and you sure as hell wouldn't enjoy the side effects.
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The US is not an empire, and you Euro's do not get to dictate to the US what we can and cannot do with our nation.

You do not get to use the US populace as hostages for your own national security forever, and you do not get to try to get more people to do so as well.

All the US really needs to do is secure our own borders/waters and maintain our own nuclear triad.

Anything beyond that is done at the whim of the US electorate, and the US electorate is getting real sick of how much time, money, and blood is being wasted on other people's behalf, when we have a lot of shit we need to deal with at home.

This isn't the Cold War anymore, and the younger gens in the US will not be shackled to promises made before we were born. You want our help and protection, fucking stop being ungrateful shits and start fucking handling your own affairs more than asking the US to handle them for you all the time.
 
Bacle said:
The US is not an empire, and you Euro's do not get to dictate to the US what we can and cannot do with our nation.

You do not get to use the US populace as hostages for your own national security forever, and you do not get to try to get more people to do so as well.

All the US really needs to do is secure our own borders/waters and maintain our own nuclear triad.

Anything beyond that is done at the whim of the US electorate, and the US electorate is getting real sick of how much time, money, and blood is being wasted on other people's behalf, when we have a lot of shit we need to deal with at home.

This isn't the Cold War anymore, and the younger gens in the US will not be shackled to promises made before we were born. You want our help and protection, fucking stop being ungrateful shits and start fucking handling your own affairs more than asking the US to handle them for you all the time.
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You can hardly even begin to imagine the benefits USA gets out of maintaining its superpower status. But its a moot point, vast majority of your electorate does not share your silly isolationist paradise fantasies, you may want to research why.
news.gallup.com

Majorities of Americans See the Need for NATO and the UN

Majorities of Americans say NATO should be maintained (77%) and believe that the U.N. plays a necessary role in the world (66%).
news.gallup.com news.gallup.com

Nevermind that the minority opinion is probably to a large degree represented by people like this.
 
Marduk said:
You can hardly even begin to imagine the benefits USA gets out of maintaining its superpower status. But its a moot point, vast majority of your electorate does not share your silly isolationist paradise fantasies, you may want to research why.
news.gallup.com

Majorities of Americans See the Need for NATO and the UN

Majorities of Americans say NATO should be maintained (77%) and believe that the U.N. plays a necessary role in the world (66%).
news.gallup.com news.gallup.com

Nevermind that the minority opinion is probably to a large degree represented by people like this.
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Because a lot of the electorate are fucking ignorant sheeple who have no real knowledge of history and what caused WW1 to become more than an isolated spat in the Balkan's and still buy a lot of Cold War propaganda as the unvarnished truth.

And I do remember how much you Euro's and your allies in DC complained and dragged your feet on actually spending 2% of your GDP's on NATO (Poland at least was actually paying it's share, so kodus for that).

This is also why I'm fine with most European nations getting their own nukes; you won't need to depend on the US nuclear umbrella if you have nukes of your own.
 
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Bacle said:
Because a lot of the electorate are fucking ignorant sheeple who have no real knowledge of history and what caused WW1 to become more than an isolated spat in the Balkan's and still buy a lot of Cold War propaganda as the unvarnished truth.

And I do remember how much you Euro's and your allies in DC complained and dragged your feet on actually spending 2% of your GDP's on NATO (Poland at least was actually paying it's share, so kodus for that).

This is also why I'm fine with most European nations getting their own nukes; you won't need to depend on the US nuclear umbrella if you have nukes of your own.
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Amen to that.Poland need 300 missiles with H bombs,and we would be safe.Pity,that Biden owners never agree to that.
 
I'm taking anything I see or hear with a huge grain of salt. We saw aerial combat footage that turned out to just be a snip from the realistic aircraft sim game, DCS. We saw 60+ dead civilians that turned out to be very alive people struggling to keep their tarps covering themselves up for a newscast. We've heard multiple claims that a nuclear power plant was breached only to turn out to be false.
 
Super sus that the russians did this and the the middle of the smartphone era in the most well recorded war ever we have yet to see any proof other than a claim on the embassy twitter of this warcrime. You would think Ukranian authorities would be all over it and taking precautions to register and investigate so they can use it against Russia.

Face it, this has a 90% chance of being a completely fabrication or massive exaggeration.
 
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