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Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

Zachowon

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Zelenski finally admitting what any sane person has understood for a while.
Because they have shown more then capable of only needing supplies from the west.
But perhaps because util the conflict is over Ukraine can not join NATO with land disputes
 

Bacle

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Because they have shown more then capable of only needing supplies from the west.
But perhaps because util the conflict is over Ukraine can not join NATO with land disputes
The first sentence I can actually agree with; I thought Ukraine would barely last a week, and so far, they are doing a fuck load better than that. And I've said before, I have no problem selling Kiev weapons.

However, I cannot agree with the second sentence, because that sort of attitude is part of why shit kept escalating over their. Zelenski now seems to be willing to publicly say what most understood already; Ukraine will not being joining NATO in the future. Not 'we won't join till after the current conflict is over', not 'we will join when our nation has finished rebuilding', not 'we will join after making some concessions to Russia'; it was 'will not join NATO' without any qualifiers.

 

Zachowon

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The first sentence I can actually agree with; I thought Ukraine would barely last a week, and so far, they are doing a fuck load better than that. And I've said before, I have no problem selling Kiev weapons.

However, I cannot agree with the second sentence, because that sort of attitude is part of why shit kept escalating over their. Zelenski now seems to be willing to publicly say what most understood already; Ukraine will not being joining NATO in the future. Not 'we won't join till after the current conflict is over', not 'we will join when our nation has finished rebuilding', not 'we will join after making some concessions to Russia'; it was 'will not join NATO' without any qualifiers.

You do know why Macedonia only recently became a member of NATO?
Why Moldova who wants to can't?
Because they have had major disputed territory that joining NATO before settling would be an automatic article 5.
So yhey want them to settle things.
 

Bacle

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You do know why Macedonia only recently became a member of NATO?
Why Moldova who wants to can't?
Because they have had major disputed territory that joining NATO before settling would be an automatic article 5.
So yhey want them to settle things.
That is not what Zelenski said or implied, and you know it.

He flat out said it's not happening, without any qualifiers.
 

Zachowon

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That is not what Zelenski said or implied, and you know it.

He flat out said it's not happening, without any qualifiers.
For rightnow.
I am just saying about right now.
 

Bacle

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For rightnow.
I am just saying about right now.
Don't play dumb.

You were implying that Ukraine going for NATO membership is still a possibility in the future, once the 'territorial dispute' is finished, despite Zelenski saying it was not happening, without any qualifiers.
 

Zachowon

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Don't play dumb.

You were implying that Ukraine going for NATO membership is still a possibility in the future, once the 'territorial dispute' is finished, despite Zelenski saying it was not happening, without any qualifiers.
It can still happen.
Especially if Russia starts to win like people are saying on here and if they do win they can have actual help.
But I don't care if they do or dont
 

Bacle

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It can still happen.
Especially if Russia starts to win like people are saying on here and if they do win they can have actual help.
But I don't care if they do or dont
And see, you just once again contradicted Zelenski and put a hypothetical situation where Ukraine joined even before the conflict was over, contradicting yourself and NATO rules you cited with the Macedonia example.

If you didn't care about Ukraine joining, you won't be going to this effort to try to contradict what Zelenski said or toss out hypotheticals that go against NATO rules you yourself cited.
 

Marduk

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Don't play dumb.

You were implying that Ukraine going for NATO membership is still a possibility in the future, once the 'territorial dispute' is finished, despite Zelenski saying it was not happening, without any qualifiers.
Governments change. Strategies change. Never say never. Zelensky is not Ukraine's God-Emperor for the next ten thousand years.
Ukraine was practically unable to join NATO as long as the separatists and Crimea were outstanding issues, and status quo was that they would be for any foreseeable future.
No need for war at all.
Zelensky may well be saying that now to finally put an end to what some delusional people and Russian propaganda always believed- that this is about the question of Ukraine's NATO membership and in turn NATO threatening Russia militarily.
Now watch Russia's reaction to what he said.
Its going to be... underwhelming.
But if the war was about that, there should have been near instant ceasefire followed by peace deal. Right?
 

Bacle

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Governments change. Strategies change. Never say never. Zelensky is not Ukraine's God-Emperor for the next ten thousand years.
Ukraine was practically unable to join NATO as long as the separatists and Crimea were outstanding issues, and status quo was that they would be for any foreseeable future.
No need for war at all.
Zelensky may well be saying that now to make clear what some delusional people and Russian propaganda always believed- that this is about the question of Ukraine's NATO membership and in turn NATO threatening Russia militarily.
Now watch Russia's reaction to what he said.
Its going to be... underwhelming.
But if the war was about that, there should have been near instant ceasefire followed by peace deal. Right?
Ah yes, you trying to act like we just need to wait for the conflict to end and Zelenski to leave office before we try to get Ukraine to join NATO again.

You fucking warhawk morons cannot accept that Ukraine is not going to be in NATO now or in the future, now matter how much you wish to push NATO further East.

Stop trying to act like more countries get to use the threat of nuclear hellfire hitting the US as an umbrella against Russia; NATO is not the fucking Eurasia Treaty Organization.
 

Marduk

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Too dangerous, nobody wanted to send people to retrieve them, and nobody wanted to go no matter the pay, it’s fair I guess, we seize their boats they seize our planes, the whole situation still annoy me, I hope our subcontractors in Ukraine don’t die…
I find it hard to believe considering the stakes. Could throw in a million or two of USD per plane in salary bonuses and it still would be very worthwhile. Guess the management was very much unwilling to make such radical moves so quickly though, so here we are, too late.
Ah yes, you trying to act like we just need to wait for the conflict to end and Zelenski to leave office before we try to get Ukraine to join NATO again.

You fucking warhawk morons cannot accept that Ukraine is not going to be in NATO now or in the future, now matter how much you wish to push NATO further East.
Because its true. Geopolitics are an ongoing process, there are no eternal guarantees of anything, for anyone, ever. For foreseeable future, it was pretty sure Ukraine isn't going to join. Can't do better than that.
It took Russia 20 years between signing the Budapest Memorandum and shitting over Ukraine's territorial integrity, so a fair compromise would be to likewise put a 20 year limit on that promise.
Stop trying to act like more countries get to use the threat of nuclear hellfire hitting the US as an umbrella against Russia; NATO is not the fucking Eurasia Treaty Organization.
I'll have you know that all of Ukraine's territory is on the continent of Europe.
 
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Bacle

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Because its true. Geopolitics are an ongoing process, there are no eternal guarantees of anything, for anyone, ever. For foreseeable future, it was pretty sure Ukraine isn't going to join. Can't do better than that.
Unless something changes massively with regards to Russia's views on NATO, it will be effectively forever.

The only way Russia tolerates Ukraine joining NATO is if Russia itself decided it wanted to join NATO, which is about as likely as Tupac suddenly showing up alive at the Emmy's.
I'll have you know that all of Ukraine's territory is on the continent of Europe.
Eurasia is one giant continent, Europe as it's own 'continent' is more about politics than geology or geography.

Edit: Some actual news:

Ukraine hit Kherson's airport to hinder the Russian's using it.
 

Marduk

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Unless something changes massively with regards to Russia's views on NATO, it will be effectively forever.
Who even knows if Russia will even exist forever? Likewise, who knows how long NATO will exist, and if and what successor organizations will it have?
The Russian Federation may well fall apart in the next 10 years for all we know now.
The only way Russia tolerates Ukraine joining NATO is if Russia itself decided it wanted to join NATO, which is about as likely as Tupac suddenly showing up alive at the Emmy's.
Eurasia is one giant continent, Europe as it's own 'continent' is more about politics than geology or geography.
Its all a matter of what kind of government ends up in charge of Russia and whether it has any more important things to be concerned about than playing this kind of imperial games.
 

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Ah yes, you trying to act like we just need to wait for the conflict to end and Zelenski to leave office before we try to get Ukraine to join NATO again.

You fucking warhawk morons cannot accept that Ukraine is not going to be in NATO now or in the future, now matter how much you wish to push NATO further East.

Stop trying to act like more countries get to use the threat of nuclear hellfire hitting the US as an umbrella against Russia; NATO is not the fucking Eurasia Treaty Organization.
Marduk was just stating the obvious. A country can’t join NATO with a current ongoing territorial dispute. or corruption issues in its government that NATO might find questionable, or no outstanding referendum from its citizens, etc. The conditions for joining NATO are actually pretty stringent.

Also, might help to refrain from insults and calling people “fucking Warhawk morons” and whatnot?
 

TheRejectionist

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Zelenski finally admitting what any sane person has understood for a while.
So good news.

Ah yes, you trying to act like we just need to wait for the conflict to end and Zelenski to leave office before we try to get Ukraine to join NATO again.

You fucking warhawk morons cannot accept that Ukraine is not going to be in NATO now or in the future, now matter how much you wish to push NATO further East.

Stop trying to act like more countries get to use the threat of nuclear hellfire hitting the US as an umbrella against Russia; NATO is not the fucking Eurasia Treaty Organization.
Considering his response to me is we are Putin's cucks I am not surprised.
 

Bacle

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Marduk was just stating the obvious. A country can’t join NATO with a current ongoing territorial dispute. or corruption issues in its government that NATO might find questionable, or no outstanding referendum from its citizens, etc. The conditions for joining NATO are actually pretty stringent.

Also, might help to refrain from insults and calling people “fucking Warhawk morons” and whatnot?
I'm fucking tired to of both Marduk's barely disguised desire to use US/NATO power to push Russia further from Poland's border via being OK with Ukraine coming in, and I'm really sick of Zach's 'playing dumb' routine when he damn well know better most of the time.

I do not want to die in nuclear hellfire, or increase the risk of it by pushing NATO further east, for more ungrateful Euro's who want to use the US populace as a hostage to keep Russia at bay, which is what NATO essentially is. Europe has no problem fighting to the last American, so I'm getting real tired of Euro's acting like we owe them that situation in perpetuity or owe admission to NATO to anyone who wants in.
 

Zachowon

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I'm fucking tired to of both Marduk's barely disguised desire to use US/NATO power to push Russia further from Poland's border via being OK with Ukraine coming in, and I'm really sick of Zach's 'playing dumb' routine when he damn well know better most of the time.

I do not want to die in nuclear hellfire, or increase the risk of it by pushing NATO further east, for more ungrateful Euro's who want to use the US populace as a hostage to keep Russia at bay, which is what NATO essentially is. Europe has no problem fighting to the last American, so I'm getting real tired of Euro's acting like we owe them that situation in perpetuity or owe admission to NATO to anyone who wants in.
In order for countries to join NATO they must seek to join themselves as well as vote on it.
That's right.
Vote, as well as have no conflicted territory ir major corruption
 

Bacle

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In order for countries to join NATO they must seek to join themselves as well as vote on it.
That's right.
Vote, as well as have no conflicted territory ir major corruption
And yet you said if Russia was winning against Ukraine, we could let them into NATO.
It can still happen.
Especially if Russia starts to win like people are saying on here and if they do win they can have actual help.
But I don't care if they do or dont
Your own words.
 

Zachowon

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And yet you said if Russia was winning against Ukraine, we could let them into NATO.

Your own words.
Nit what I am saying.
Just me being horrible at making my point.
I am saying that should Russia take most of the country. UKRAINE can claim the part left as thiers and join NATO if they give up on Eastern Ukraine.
 

ATP

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Ah yes, you trying to act like we just need to wait for the conflict to end and Zelenski to leave office before we try to get Ukraine to join NATO again.

You fucking warhawk morons cannot accept that Ukraine is not going to be in NATO now or in the future, now matter how much you wish to push NATO further East.

Stop trying to act like more countries get to use the threat of nuclear hellfire hitting the US as an umbrella against Russia; NATO is not the fucking Eurasia Treaty Organization.
What NATO ? i do not like Macron,but he was right when he said it is dead.What matter is alliance with USA,for now at least.
If Kamala become president,it would not matter,too.

Becouse if you think that germans or french would help fighting Putin,then you are naive - both are KGB trojan horses.

So,it not matter if Ukraine join NATO or not,only if USA survive and ally with them,or not.
 
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