Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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ShadowArxxy said:
Donald Rumsfeld single-handedly blocked the decision and forced the Army to select Chrysler's design
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Yup. Bribery highway that one. Turbine was a shit decision and is a common complaint among the Motor Pool technicians and engineers from the local NATO base. It's also the main reason Abrams can't be given to Ukraine. Doing so would require US Army techs and engineers to be in Ukraine and the US to build a logistical infrastructure to support the damn hangar queens. They're almost as bad as an F-35 in that every hour of operation requires eight hours of maintenance and entire warehouses of parts.

The Leopard in comparison is a simpler tank from a manufacturing, logistics and maintenance standpoint. Especially in regards to Ukraine. There are factories for parts just over the border in Poland and here in Romania.
 
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The One Char said:
So how big do you think the Bribe was?
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It wasn't purely bribery, to be fair; while the Army evaluators felt the GM design was overall superior, there was considerable concern over the fact that the Army had pretty much had to beg GM to submit an entry for XM1. The company's land systems division was very small compared to their civilian auto business, whereas Chrysler was much more hungry for the tank contract as the previous M60 had been a much more significant chunk of their total business.

The concern was thus that while the GM tank might be better head-to-head, it didn't have as much future upgrade potential, especially when combined with GM's relative disinterest in the entire tank business.

AmosTrask said:
Yup. Bribery highway that one. Turbine was a shit decision and is a common complaint among the Motor Pool technicians and engineers from the local NATO base.
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True, but if they'd gone with the diesel, it would have its own list of maintenance headaches, most notably the fact the engine and transmission aren't a tidy modular power pack like the Chrysler design and can't be easily removed from the tank for maintenance. And when they shifted to JP-8 fuel, the diesel engines would have issues with excessive fuel pump wear and severe knocking due to delayed ignition in cold fuel.

Then there's the problem with ammunition production for its main gun. With all the production cutbacks since the Cold War ended. The the US Military is having trouble replacing all the millions of 105mm ammunition expiring.
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WTF are you talking about with this one, the Abrams uses the same 120mm as Leopard. The 105 has been out of service for decades.
 
ShadowArxxy said:
WTF are you talking about with this one, the Abrams uses the same 120mm as Leopard. The 105 has been out of service for decades.
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Sorry the 105 mm was meant to be a reply for a discussion on another forum on the independent report on the US Military's new Mobile Protected Firepower Platform program. Which pointed out the problems with ammunition Procurement for the 105 mm.

I had both windows and chat threads open and did not notice I posted it here. That's what I get for thinking I can multi-task two conversations simultaneously.

On topic. That Vatnik propaganda woman getting shot live on a Russian State TV broadcast from Soledar. Surviving because they gave her one of the few Ratnik armor that wasn't sold to the Black Market by the local commander. Then whining, cursing and having a crying meltdown was comedy gold. If that Ukrainian sniper had aimed an inch higher there'd be one less Russian propaganda stooge alive.
 
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The only way for Ukraine to operate Abrams anytime soon is with a lot of spare powerpacks being conveniently added to the shipment, and then arrangement of some sort of quickly set up maintenance center for used ones in Poland staffed by US contractors. There's no way they can get people trained to do that within less than half a year at least, probably more, but exchanging a powerpack is far quicker and easier than engine maintenance on even simplest old tanks. The logistical challenge of a "powerpack exchange" and the double normal fuel logistics of Abrams (also questions over if there will be any unusual engine issues from Ukraine most likely not feeding them JP-8) is why everyone would prefer Ukraine to get Leopard 2's instead, but if there is no other way, it is doable.
 
Marduk said:
The only way for Ukraine to operate Abrams anytime soon is with a lot of spare powerpacks being conveniently added to the shipment, and then arrangement of some sort of quickly set up maintenance center for used ones in Poland staffed by US contractors. There's no way they can get people trained to do that within less than half a year at least, probably more, but exchanging a powerpack is far quicker and easier than engine maintenance on even simplest old tanks. The logistical challenge of a "powerpack exchange" and the double normal fuel logistics of Abrams (also questions over if there will be any unusual engine issues from Ukraine most likely not feeding them JP-8) is why everyone would prefer Ukraine to get Leopard 2's instead, but if there is no other way, it is doable.
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That is exactly what both the Ukrainians and the UK liason stated in their communications to NATO. The Ukrainians don't have the fuel, trained manpower or logistics to handle an Abrams even should the USA send the latest sep build
 
Biden just announced transferring 31 Abrams alongside support engineering and armored recovery vehicles to Ukraine. Yikes. How will Ukraine keep it maintained?
 
AmosTrask said:
Biden just announced transferring 31 Abrams alongside support engineering and armored recovery vehicles to Ukraine. Yikes. How will Ukraine keep it maintained?
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I'm pretty sure it was the 'push' to get Germany to really move on the Leopard 2s. My guess is the Abrams, if they actually get to Ukraine, will just sit somewhere near Kiev.
 
Bacle said:


Russia just struck a Turkish ship in Kherson.
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It's pretty bad, but nowhere near as bad as it sounds - the ship in question is under the flag of Vanuatu, not Turkey, so unless the owner has good connections with Erdogan's party there may not be much happening.
The Whispering Monk said:
I'm pretty sure it was the 'push' to get Germany to really move on the Leopard 2s. My guess is the Abrams, if they actually get to Ukraine, will just sit somewhere near Kiev.
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Contractors in Poland, similar to some other hi tech vehicles.
Alternatively, they will use them for training crews and staff to await something like 200-500 Abrams in second half of the year.
 
The Whispering Monk said:
I'm pretty sure it was the 'push' to get Germany to really move on the Leopard 2s. My guess is the Abrams, if they actually get to Ukraine, will just sit somewhere near Kiev.
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They won't be getting Abram's for a bit through; Ukraine is going to get new-build production Abrams, not stuff out of the storage yards.

This is likely to mean we won't see Abrams in Ukraine till after the summer at earliest, and it is likely the Abram's going to Ukraine will be built specifically so that Russia won't gain much by capturing one. So these are lkely to be the 'monkey-model' Abrams like we gave Iraq, if likely a bit better do to this not being a COIN conflict.
 
Bacle said:
They won't be getting Abram's for a bit through; Ukraine is going to get new-build production Abrams, not stuff out of the storage yards.

This is likely to mean we won't see Abrams in Ukraine till after the summer at earliest, and it is likely the Abram's going to Ukraine will be built specifically so that Russia won't gain much by capturing one. So these are lkely to be the 'monkey-model' Abrams like we gave Iraq, if likely a bit better do to this not being a COIN conflict.
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Where are you getting we are sending new ones?
 
Zachowon said:
I have not seen any rumors of it.
We have 4 k in stocks of these things.
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Eh, I don't know what to say.

Taking from existing stocks and stripping out the classified bits to make them into export models seems like the expected course of action. However, if this article and the rumors are right, Ukraine is getting new builds, possibly better than monkey models but without stuff we do not want the Russians to possibly get their hands on.
 
Bacle said:
They won't be getting Abram's for a bit through; Ukraine is going to get new-build production Abrams, not stuff out of the storage yards.

This is likely to mean we won't see Abrams in Ukraine till after the summer at earliest, and it is likely the Abram's going to Ukraine will be built specifically so that Russia won't gain much by capturing one. So these are lkely to be the 'monkey-model' Abrams like we gave Iraq, if likely a bit better do to this not being a COIN conflict.
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Training how to use the damned things takes time a monkey model will likely be easier to use
 
Bacle said:
They won't be getting Abram's for a bit through; Ukraine is going to get new-build production Abrams, not stuff out of the storage yards.

This is likely to mean we won't see Abrams in Ukraine till after the summer at earliest, and it is likely the Abram's going to Ukraine will be built specifically so that Russia won't gain much by capturing one. So these are lkely to be the 'monkey-model' Abrams like we gave Iraq, if likely a bit better do to this not being a COIN conflict.
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Bacle said:
Eh, I don't know what to say.

Taking from existing stocks and stripping out the classified bits to make them into export models seems like the expected course of action. However, if this article and the rumors are right, Ukraine is getting new builds, possibly better than monkey models but without stuff we do not want the Russians to possibly get their hands on.
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Mothballed ones also need to get through the manufacturer. For things like engine refurbishment, whatever upgrades they can get, possibly replacing armor for export grade, replacing classified NATO comms and the like with whatever Ukraine uses and so on.
Some exports have to go through total rebuilds, down to everything except the hull being replaced, due to age of the tanks.
 
Bacle said:
Eh, I don't know what to say.

Taking from existing stocks and stripping out the classified bits to make them into export models seems like the expected course of action. However, if this article and the rumors are right, Ukraine is getting new builds, possibly better than monkey models but without stuff we do not want the Russians to possibly get their hands on.
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If making new builds, they could be fitted as diesels from the start; one of the big advantages of the modular power pack layout is you can change the engine like that, and diesel options have been considered in the past.
 
ShadowArxxy said:
If making new builds, they could be fitted as diesels from the start; one of the big advantages of the modular power pack layout is you can change the engine like that, and diesel options have been considered in the past.
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That was a thought I had as well; re-engining the tanks for diesel instead of the turbine would simplify a lot of the logistics issues that complicated the idea of sending them to Ukraine.
 
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