Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

[Rocinante]

Honestly, at this point I'm just kind of morbidly curious what put you down this path of self-deception in the first place.

Watching Ukraine continue to lose battles?

 

[Rocinante]

Do you know what Key terrain is?
That is what you are claiming the city to be.
Except it has nothing to be a key city about.

It is not a major economic capital.

It is, or was.

It is not a rail hub.

it is.

The coking plant has basically been destroyed by bombardment from artillery.

so now Ukraine can't use it and Russia might rebuild/repair it one day. Either way, it isn't producing shit for Ukraine right now.

Hell, we can even argue that for Russia it IS a key city

Yes, which they just won.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Do you want Ukraine to lose?

This is an honest question mind you. Because you and those who agree with you appear to have a peculiar emotional investment in not only “debunking” “Western propaganda” whilst taking the Kremlin at face value, but also in leaving Ukraine to its fate.

Do you want a Russian victory?

If so, why?

 

[Rocinante]

Do you want Ukraine to lose?

This is an honest question mind you. Because you and those who agree with you appear to have a peculiar emotional investment in not only “debunking” “Western propaganda” whilst taking the Kremlin at face value, but also in leaving Ukraine to its fate.

Do you want a Russian victory?

If so, why?

So mainstream western media and Ukraine's own media are Russian propaganda now too? Lol

 

[Lord Sovereign]

So mainstream western media and Ukraine's own media are Russian propaganda now too? Lol

You haven’t answered my question.

 

[AmosTrask]

Yes, it's a hub too, hence the Coke plant and all the rails leading in and out of the region.

Russia now owns a territory which is the high ground, which held economic and defensive value, and is the home of a rail hub.

This will now be used by Russia from which to launch further assaults deeper into Ukrainian territory.

Not a hub. It hasn't ever been a hub. It's a spur that used to connect to Mariupol. It was being planned for a rail hub but the Russian Firm that "won" the bid from Yanukovych ran off with the money when the protests started in 2014.

Low ground you numbskull. Look at the terrain map. It's a valley surrounded by open fields rising to hills in the west.

Good luck with that. There is an ever bigger trench and bunker network in the hills to the west. Pinche Russian ass gobbler.

Edit: That insult is a lot less effective in English. It loses the vitriol and connotations that demand immediate physical combat to answer.

 

[mrttao]

So mainstream western media and Ukraine's own media are Russian propaganda now too? Lol

This comedy reminds me of COVID

How repeating what fauci said two weeks ago (before he changed his mind) would get you deplatformed as a "antivaxxer" because you "spread disinformation"

 

[LordsFire]

Watching Ukraine continue to lose battles?

And what of the battles that Russia has lost? Have those just been completely memory-holed?

 

[AnimalNoodles]

And what of the battles that Russia has lost? Have those just been completely memory-holed?

what of them? What matters is who is winning the war

 

[Rocinante]

And what of the battles that Russia has lost? Have those just been completely memory-holed?

what of them? It's war, some battles are won, some are lost.

They lost this one, and it was a big one.

After taking Bahkmut, then the counter offensive being an abysmal failure, and now this, it looks like Russia has the initiative over the last year.

 

[LordsFire]

what of them? What matters is who is winning the war

If you count one side's victories as evidence of them winning, and the other side's victories as irrelevant, you both are clearly extremely biased, and not going to come up with any kind of coherent conclusion about who is winning or losing.

what of them? It's war, some battles are won, some are lost.

They lost this one, and it was a big one.

After taking Bahkmut, then the counter offensive being an abysmal failure, and now this, it looks like Russia has the initiative over the last year.

'A big win' was the Kharkiv offensive, or the Kherson offensive.

On Russia's side, a big win was taking Kherson in the first place, and the fact that they still hold the parts of that Oblast South of the river.

This was incremental territorial gain, and at a high cost. If you're going to call it a 'big win,' then you have zero business calling the Ukrainian Summer offensive a failure, because it involved exactly the same kinds of incremental gains, except they didn't suffer such insanely disproportionate losses to take small slivers of territory.

 

[Marduk]

what of them? It's war, some battles are won, some are lost.

They lost this one, and it was a big one.

After taking Bahkmut, then the counter offensive being an abysmal failure, and now this, it looks like Russia has the initiative over the last year.

The only thing that made Bakhmut and Avdiivka such big battles is, oh the irony, the huge amount of time, troops and materiel Russia had to spend on taking them.
A good modern army would have blazed over them without much fuss about it.
Even friggin Nazis, with mostly horse based logistics, no drones, and crappy WW2 era vehicles went through half of modern day Ukraine in just few months, and despite such mad successes at the time they didn't win the war in the end.
Ukraine has quite a bunch of 30k to 60k towns/cities to lose before it's pushed out of the Donetsk oblast alone, and it's an open question whether Russia will be able to do that if this is the kind of time and cost they have to pay for such "victories".
And that's without getting into what would be Ukraine's last stand in the Donetsk oblast, the old Sloviansk-Kramatorsk line of the 2014 conflict fame, which Ukraine lost, retaken and fortified then, both of those being 100k+ cities. If Avdiivka and Bakhmut were hard to take, those will be harder.

 

[Zachowon]

It is, or was.

It had the Coke plant, which was running a third of its capacity from a Soviet bunker.
That is before the recent fighting which uh...destroyed it.
Russia could always build one IN Russia, but I doubt they would be able to get it running in a reasonable timeframe

it is.

I have zero evidence saying it was a rail hub.
All stuff about logistics invovled roads. Not rail.
Said roads were the supply for Ukrainian forces.

so now Ukraine can't use it and Russia might rebuild/repair it one day. Either way, it isn't producing shit for Ukraine right now.

One day years from now.
That is how bad it is.
It isnt peoducing shit for ejther side.

Yes, which they just won.

And for Russia that may be a huge deal.
For Ukraine, it hurts to lose a city but at the same time, you made the enemy bleed the same amount of people who once lived in that town if not more

 

[Vyor]

It is home of a major coking plant. That's economic damage to Ukraine and more resources for Russia.

It was the home of a major coke plant.

It's a rail hub, that's more logistics advantage for russia

It was a rail hub.

It's a defensive position that protects Donetsk. That's another plus for Russia.

if russia takes the time to clear out the mines, the traps, and then re-fortify it after having destroyed all of the fortifications.

It's a high ground. Another plus for Russia.

That is... only a plus when trying to protect the city itself. It doesn't have any impact on the war as a whole.

 

[Rocinante]

It was the home of a major coke plant.



It was a rail hub.



if russia takes the time to clear out the mines, the traps, and then re-fortify it after having destroyed all of the fortifications.



That is... only a plus when trying to protect the city itself. It doesn't have any impact on the war as a whole.

So Russia destroying all that stuff and holding on to it: bad for Ukraine.

 

[Vyor]

So Russia destroying all that stuff and holding on to it: bad for Ukraine.

Well it was destroyed quite some time ago so... I mean, if russia wants to fight over useless land I guess more power to them?

 

[Bacle]

 

[Carrot of Truth]

Do you want Ukraine to lose?

This is an honest question mind you. Because you and those who agree with you appear to have a peculiar emotional investment in not only “debunking” “Western propaganda” whilst taking the Kremlin at face value, but also in leaving Ukraine to its fate.

Do you want a Russian victory?

If so, why?

Just because some people don't wanna continue cutting Ukraine a blank check to please the Fulda fucktards doesn't mean they support Russia

 

[AnimalNoodles]

The only thing that made Bakhmut and Avdiivka such big battles is, oh the irony, the huge amount of time, troops and materiel Russia had to spend on taking them.
A good modern army would have blazed over them without much fuss about it.
Even friggin Nazis, with mostly horse based logistics, no drones, and crappy WW2 era vehicles went through half of modern day Ukraine in just few months, and despite such mad successes at the time they didn't win the war in the end.
Ukraine has quite a bunch of 30k to 60k towns/cities to lose before it's pushed out of the Donetsk oblast alone, and it's an open question whether Russia will be able to do that if this is the kind of time and cost they have to pay for such "victories".
And that's without getting into what would be Ukraine's last stand in the Donetsk oblast, the old Sloviansk-Kramatorsk line of the 2014 conflict fame, which Ukraine lost, retaken and fortified then, both of those being 100k+ cities. If Avdiivka and Bakhmut were hard to take, those will be harder.

How would your good modern army deal with omnipresent satellite surveillance? How about drones? How would they deal with the precision guided artillery and rockets striking assembly areas and rapidly scatterable mines dropping in front of any advances and behind any retreats? Then how will they deal with precision guided munitions blowing up the demining equipment?

How would they launch assaults when any concentration of forces is spotted by drones and satellites and then pounded by artillery and rockets?

Especially how would they deal it when enemy AWACS, satellites and drones are controlled by a third power they cannot touch?

Ill tell you what they would do...focus on grinding down the enemy with attrition because until the enemy forces are ground down, vast sweeping maneuver operations would be very hard to do with acceptable losses.

 

[Captain X]

Watching Ukraine continue to lose battles?

You know, for someone who has said they aren't a Russian simp, you sure manage to come off as one.