Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

[Marduk]

Listen, I am laughing at YOU. And people like you. You're pathetically brainwashed.

Likewise.

I've never been pro Russia, but I live in the real world, and I'm watching Russia win important territories, and then you guys just spin it to claim how unimportant it really is.

>important territories
5-10 mile pocket that was on the frontline since the hybrid phase of war
Do you even read yourself?

It's hilarious, if a bit sad because a lot of people need to die for this.

Blame Putin, he sent most of those who did.

I've been listening to you brainwashed retards go on about how much ass Ukraine is kicking for years now, and meanwhile i keep seeing counter offensives fail and them losing terrirory.

OMG, they lost a few miles of territory. For... how much losses to the other side? Truly a victory fitting to the WW1 style of warfare there.
Few more victories like that, and Russia will have to stop propagandizing about how they can repeat WW2, and start propagandizing how they can repeat WW1. With the rate they are losing armored vehicles at in a year they may have to.

I told you years ago Ukraine would still be fighting this war in a few years because they aren't winning, And here we are. They just lost a key city that up until this week, everyone agreed was an important city.

I don't remember agreeing to that. It's not fucking Odessa (major port and 1m pop), Mikolayiv or Kherson, you could call those key cities, but a fucking 30k one ruined by war since 2014? Are you serious?

So now you pathetic retards need to spin that around and make it somehow into a win for Ukraine.

The only pathetic retard here is you with your belief into vatnik propaganda.

Just like you'll do next time Russia wins.

And this will continue until a peace deal is signed and Russia probably walks with Donbass at the least.

And also your retard vatnik surrender propositions.

Let's be honest, you are predicting Ukraine will lose since a long time, and scaremongering that it will be worse for Ukraine, yet Russia still didn't take the very minimum it officially claimed to want, administrative borders of Donetsk and Luhansk, and is still far from having even that.
Yet you still scaremonger that they should take that "deal" because it will get worse later, few miles of land are a major victory (well Putin wanted a major propaganda victory for the election, which is why this happened and why the cost was so insane), despite the better knowing people having an idea how Russia treats deals and how that will make things worse and make a future surprise war attempt in a more convenient moment near certain.

 

[Zachowon]

Man, why do people sound like WW1 propagandists about the empires army just took a city they had been fighting a year for!!!!!
Like, cities will be lost and retaken.
Welcome tk the way war works.


And no this is not some major key city.
The city has always been a small town that just happens to have been at the front lines since 2014.
It took the Russians almost ten years to take it.
So good, much win, wow.

 

[Rocinante]

Man, why do people sound like WW1 propagandists about the empires army just took a city they had been fighting a year for!!!!!
Like, cities will be lost and retaken.
Welcome tk the way war works.


And no this is not some major key city.
The city has always been a small town that just happens to have been at the front lines since 2014.
It took the Russians almost ten years to take it.
So good, much win, wow.

"They just took a front line city, it's not that big a deal"

Lol.

You morons keep focusing on the size of the city rather than the strategic value it holds.

 

[Marduk]

"They just took a front line city, it's not that big a deal"

Lol.

You morons keep focusing on the size of the city rather than the strategic value it holds.

You talk a lot about the supposed strategic value and importance but never what it is.
And i mean what it has now (as a piece of thoroughly shelled land), not before the war.
Ukraine could afford to lose few miles of frontline land every year and Russia would not be done in a century. In a decade of winning at this rate they may even be close to finally realizing Putin's minimum goal of taking administrative borders of Donetsk and Luhansk, making WW1 look like a friggin blitzkrieg by comparison.
I won't talk about how much would be left of Russian military by that point, but if you think that's the definition of military victory...

You think you are being cool by trying to "fight" the MSM bullshit by acting the same but in reverse, and you're not realizing that it makes the less blindly contrarian people rightfully throw you into "as bad as the MSM" bag, while the MSM representatives aren't even present here to argue with you. It's sad...

 

[Rocinante]

You talk a lot about the supposed strategic value and importance but never what it is.
And i mean what it has now (as a piece of thoroughly shelled land), not before the war.
Ukraine could afford to lose few miles of frontline land every year and Russia would not be done in a century. In a decade of fighting they may even be close to finally realizing Putin's minimum goal of taking administrative borders of Donetsk and Luhansk, making WW1 look like a friggin blitzkrieg by comparison...
I won't talk about how much would be left of Russian military by that point, but if you think that's the definition of military victory...

You think you are being cool by trying to "fight" the MSM bullshit by acting the same but in reverse, and you're not realizing that it makes the less blindly contrarian people rightfully throw you into "as bad as the MSM" bag, while the MSM representatives aren't even present here to argue with you. It's sad...

It is home of a major coking plant. That's economic damage to Ukraine and more resources for Russia.

It's a rail hub, that's more logistics advantage for russia

It's a defensive position that protects Donetsk. That's another plus for Russia.

It's a high ground. Another plus for Russia.

This was a shitty loss for Ukraine. They've lost a defensive position, logistical hub and economic production.

Ukraine lost this battle. It was expensive for Russia, but it'll now be used to consolidate forces and launch attacks from.

This was pretty bad for Ukraine in that region. Trying to downplay it just shows that you can't accept reality.

Your only point that's valid is that Russia spent a lot to win it.

 

[Zachowon]

"They just took a front line city, it's not that big a deal"

Lol.

You morons keep focusing on the size of the city rather than the strategic value it holds.

What value does it hold now as a arty leveled city?
Tell me oh Master of strategy.

 

[Rocinante]

What value does it hold now as a arty leveled city?
Tell me oh Master of strategy.

Oh I don't know, high ground and railways and coking plants have no value to war efforts these days right? Lol. Losing one or your defensive positions has no negative consequences, right?

 

[Marduk]

It is home of a major coking plant. That's economic damage to Ukraine and more resources for Russia.

Correction: Used to be. 10 years ago. The plant was effectively unusable since fighting began 10 years ago as no one was going to make coke under constant threat of artillery fire, and now its fit only for dismantling considering the amount of artillery fire it took.
If you count rubble as a resource, sure, major Russian victory.

It's a rail hub, that's more logistics advantage for russia

Again, are you absolutely sure it still exists in a form more resembling a rail hub than a pile of scrap and rubble that used to be a rail hub a long time ago?

Long story short, if Russians want a coking plant and railway hub there, they will need to rebuild those first.

It's a defensive position that protects Donetsk. That's another plus for Russia.

They are going to need a lot more positions like that to actually protect it.

It's a high ground. Another plus for Russia.

Not unique in that region, and that's a tactical advantage at most.

This was a shitty loss for Ukraine. They've lost a defensive position, logistical hub and economic production.

They lost 2 of the 3 10 years ago, where have you been then?

Ukraine lost this battle. It was expensive for Russia, but it'll now be used to consolidate forces and launch attacks from.

This was pretty bad for Ukraine in that region. Trying to downplay it just shows that you can't accept reality.

Your only point that's valid is that Russia spent a lot to win it.

Doomdoomdoom.jpg
I still wonder what some people get from stubbornly projecting defeatism onto a country that they loudly proclaim to not care about.

 

[Rocinante]

Correction: Used to be. 10 years ago. The plant was effectively unusable since fighting began 10 years ago as no one was going to make coke under constant threat of artillery fire, and now its fit only for dismantling considering the amount of artillery fire it took.
If you count rubble as a resource, sure, major Russian victory.

Again, are you absolutely sure it still exists in a form more resembling a rail hub than a pile of scrap and rubble that used to be a rail hub a long time ago?

Long story short, if Russians want a coking plant and railway hub there, they will need to rebuild those first.

They are going to need a lot more positions like that to actually protect it.

Not unique in that region, and that's a tactical advantage at most.

They lost 2 of the 3 10 years ago, where have you been then?

Doomdoomdoom.jpg
I still wonder what some people get from stubbornly projecting defeatism onto a country that they loudly proclaim to not care about.

I'm not spaghetti debating you because it's a waste of time

Fate of Avdiivka uncertain as Ukrainian forces defending it struggle with fortifications, resources

Editor's note: The full names of the soldiers introduced in the story are not disclosed due to security concerns amid the ongoing war in Ukraine. DONETSK OBLAST – As artillery began pounding the cold-hardened ground ahead of them, two Ukrainian soldiers listened warily to shell impacts creep...

kyivindependent.com

Even as recent as February 2024 Ukrainian media calls it a fortress and points out that its a crucial logistics hub.

Keep up your retarded revisionist coping.

Ukraine's counter offensive over the summer utterly failed, and now Russia has taken a key area. Ukraine is losing.

 

[Marduk]

I'm not spaghetti debating you because it's a waste of time

Fate of Avdiivka uncertain as Ukrainian forces defending it struggle with fortifications, resources

Editor's note: The full names of the soldiers introduced in the story are not disclosed due to security concerns amid the ongoing war in Ukraine. DONETSK OBLAST – As artillery began pounding the cold-hardened ground ahead of them, two Ukrainian soldiers listened warily to shell impacts creep...

kyivindependent.com

Even as recent as February 2024 Ukrainian media calls it a fortress and points out that its a crucial logistics hub.

Keep up your retarded revisionist coping.

Learn to read retard.
The term "logistical hub" is not even used there.
Have you looked at the map?
What other Ukrainian positions was this even supposed to be a logistical hub for? It would be absolute nonsense...

You read about the threatened road leading into the city being an important logistical route...
for the defense of the city, which is no longer that useful if Russians took said city, and then you do a little wishful word fantasy and call it a logistical hub. Really...

Yes, the city was heavily fortified. And? Now it's a ruin, Ukraine has more fortified areas now.
I don't give a fuck about media, MSM and journos, i disliked them before you did, for some of the same reasons, some different, you trying your best to outmatch them in aggressive use of dodgy rhetorical tactics (and i have to admit it's a good try) is not going to convince me of the things you want to convince me of.

 

[Bacle]

UA has had 10 years to fortify the next defensive line, and managed to get most of their troops out of there, though the southern portion was pretty hard hit during the evac, with a few platoons losing most of their people, but the majority of the UA forces are now in positions where a repeat of this is not likely.

Right now Russia is pushing in the south, near Robotyne(?), trying to push UA back from the reclaimed bits taken during that ill-fated attempt to push south last summer.

There is also a large Russian military grouping in the north that may attempt to conquer Kharkiv, but hasn't moved yet. The Kyrnky bridgehead is still there, though the ammo shortage is hitting them too from what I've seen on X/Twitter.

UA is going to be focusing on preserving manpower by switching to mostly drones for frontline combat, with infantry only moving in when it is a low casualty environment thanks to drones taking up many of the most hazardous duties. Thought this will likely be true of Russia as well to a degree, thanks to fucking Iran and the Norks.

Taking a post Soviet military command and turning it into a NATO-type command in what is in military terms 'overnight' was never in the cards, and I personally think the 2023 'counter-offensive' by UA was ill advised, as was hold the interior of Bahkmut for so long, instead of using it as a giant FNV 'Boulder City' type trap and slaughtering RU forces for few personal losses.

Adviika is not a 'key' city, but it was convenient for UA to use to keep pressure on Donetsk City (which it is in sight of, and has been fought over for 10 years now), but with drones in play, UA doesn't need direct ground control of Adviika to harass the RU forces in Donetsk City.

The coke plant and slag heap next to it (the highground in the area) are not really intact, nor is the railway to Mariupol suddenly outside of UA's firing/drone ranges, so Russia is not going to be deriving any economic use from those anytime soon. The first F-16s are slated to arrive in May, fully trained, and UA pilots are already doing solo training missions, so UA will have a stronger air defense set up with a survivable NATO-type fighter.

How the US elections go, and how much ammo is actually delivered to UA in the near to mid-term, can have a large factor on where the lines are when both the Russian and US elections are done, and then we will know how the US is likely to play this going forward.

I personally expect the conflict to be decided by the lack of a heartbeat from Putin, more than any other factor.

 

[Rocinante]

Learn to read retard.
The term "logistical hub" is not even used there.
Have you looked at the map?
What other Ukrainian positions was this even supposed to be a logistical hub for? It would be absolute nonsense...

You read about the threatened road leading into the city being an important logistical route...
for the defense of the city, which is no longer that useful if Russians took said city, and then you do a little wishful word fantasy and call it a logistical hub. Really...

Yes, the city was heavily fortified. And? Now it's a ruin, Ukraine has more fortified areas now.
I don't give a fuck about media, MSM and journos, i disliked them before you did, for some of the same reasons, some different, you trying your best to outmatch them in aggressive use of dodgy rhetorical tactics (and i have to admit it's a good try) is not going to convince me of the things you want to convince me of.

Russians made some gains north of Avdiivka, drawing closer to the giant Avdiivka Coke Plant and the main road leading into the city – a crucial logistic route for Ukraine

From Ukrainian media themselves lol

 

[Marduk]

From Ukrainian media themselves lol

>logistical route
>logistical hub
Those are different fucking things. Are you trying to be a prime example of why people should not be using, and especially arguing about things and terms they do not understand?
Allow me to explain the difference in ASCII art form:

Route: ----------------
Hub:
\|/
=. -------
/|\
Now care to explain to me why a route leading from Ukrainian lines to a city they have withdrawn from is still crucial to them?

 

[Rocinante]

>logistical route
>logistical hub
Those are different fucking things. Are you trying to be a prime example of why people should not be using, and especially arguing about things and terms they do not understand?
Allow me to explain the difference in ASCII art form:

Route: ----------------
Hub:
\|/
=. -------
/|\
Now care to explain to me why a route leading from Ukrainian lines to a city they have withdrawn from is still crucial to them?

Yes, it's a hub too, hence the Coke plant and all the rails leading in and out of the region.

Russia now owns a territory which is the high ground, which held economic and defensive value, and is the home of a rail hub.

This will now be used by Russia from which to launch further assaults deeper into Ukrainian territory.

 

[Marduk]

Yes, it's a hub too, hence the Coke plant and all the rails leading in and out of the region.

Russia now owns a territory which is the high ground, which held economic and defensive value, and is the home of a rail hub.

If Russians have time travel based building and infrastructure restoration technology, sure.
Otherwise they have to remove the rubble and build this stuff themselves first, and then push the frontline further 30km or so at minimum to have any hope of getting economic value out of it.

This will now be used by Russia from which to launch further assaults deeper into Ukrainian territory.

Not deeper. It was in fact a pocket since a long time.

 

[LordsFire]

It is home of a major coking plant. That's economic damage to Ukraine and more resources for Russia.

It's a rail hub, that's more logistics advantage for russia

It's a defensive position that protects Donetsk. That's another plus for Russia.

It's a high ground. Another plus for Russia.

This was a shitty loss for Ukraine. They've lost a defensive position, logistical hub and economic production.

Ukraine lost this battle. It was expensive for Russia, but it'll now be used to consolidate forces and launch attacks from.

This was pretty bad for Ukraine in that region. Trying to downplay it just shows that you can't accept reality.

Your only point that's valid is that Russia spent a lot to win it.

This post demonstrates that you don't actually have a clue what you are talking about.

And, in point of fact, it is you making a fool of yourself.

It's one thing, people who say 'Russia won a battle! That means they're doing better than the Ukrainians!'

Yes, the Russians did win a battle. They gained territory. These things are true. If someone is only looking at things at that low level of a resolution, it at least makes some sense why they'd think this is an outright triumph, rather than a pyrrhic victory.


That you cite things that are not true, and have not been true for years as reasons why this is a big deal?

That makes it clear that what matters to you is not 'what is the actual value of this victory?' but 'does this support support my bias?'

It's one thing, people who are gullible to Russian propaganda about casualty ratios. It's foolish to believe Russian MoD and MoD-backed sources numbers, but from a perspective that does, I can at least understand why they think Russia is winning a war of attrition.

But this goes beyond just being gullible. This is actively choosing to come up with your own lies to believe in to support what you wish was true.

All that insisting on absurd 'points' like the coking plant and rail hub being 'big wins' does is display how utterly irrational you are about this topic, and makes your judgement on any and everything else that you believe in suspect.

And frankly, that you'd become so irrational about something as far away from you personally as the war between Russia and Ukraine?

It's pitiful.

 

[Rocinante]

This post demonstrates that you don't actually have a clue what you are talking about.

And, in point of fact, it is you making a fool of yourself.

It's one thing, people who say 'Russia won a battle! That means they're doing better than the Ukrainians!'

Yes, the Russians did win a battle. They gained territory. These things are true. If someone is only looking at things at that low level of a resolution, it at least makes some sense why they'd think this is an outright triumph, rather than a pyrrhic victory.


That you cite things that are not true, and have not been true for years as reasons why this is a big deal?

That makes it clear that what matters to you is not 'what is the actual value of this victory?' but 'does this support support my bias?'

It's one thing, people who are gullible to Russian propaganda about casualty ratios. It's foolish to believe Russian MoD and MoD-backed sources numbers, but from a perspective that does, I can at least understand why they think Russia is winning a war of attrition.

But this goes beyond just being gullible. This is actively choosing to come up with your own lies to believe in to support what you wish was true.

All that insisting on absurd 'points' like the coking plant and rail hub being 'big wins' does is display how utterly irrational you are about this topic, and makes your judgement on any and everything else that you believe in suspect.

And frankly, that you'd become so irrational about something as far away from you personally as the war between Russia and Ukraine?

It's pitiful.

Cope. Harder.

Even Ukraine and western media admits this was a key city.

 

[Marduk]

Cope. Harder.

Even Ukraine and western media admits this was a key city.

I'll be the first to admit that major media and journos tend to be not very smart about those things and love to overhype things because of clicks. Some are worse about this than others, and stubbornly trying to convince us that the worst of them are right in this specific case is... Well i don't know what your point in doing that is.

 

[LordsFire]

Cope. Harder.

Honestly, at this point I'm just kind of morbidly curious what put you down this path of self-deception in the first place.

 

[Zachowon]

Oh I don't know, high ground and railways and coking plants have no value to war efforts these days right? Lol. Losing one or your defensive positions has no negative consequences, right?

Cope. Harder.

Even Ukraine and western media admits this was a key city.

Do you know what Key terrain is?
That is what you are claiming the city to be.
Except it has nothing to be a key city about.
It is not a major economic capital. It is not a rail hub.
The coking plant has basically been destroyed by bombardment from artillery.

Hell, we can even argue that for Russia it IS a key city, but fir Ukraine it was a city used to wear out the Russians in a disruption of thier combat force. By forcing them to have a large force number focused there then anywhere else at the time.

I would recommend everyone here read the US Army FM 3-0 and the Red Book we have.
Because yall need to learn fuckijg doctrine