Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Bacle]

To be fair, he's not wrong; though not entirely for the reasons he thinks. Not that it matters at this point; because regardless of the reasons, the eternal conflict with Russia has resumed, and isn't going to stop any time soon.

See, it could stop, but that would require Russia to not view genocide as a method of war as valid in the modern era, and view anything the USSR ever touched or stole as belonging to Russia eternally (e.i. the Baltics, Ukraine, Georgia, the Kuriles, etc.).

If Russia stopped invading it's neighbors for a few decades, maybe people wouldn't view Russia as a near-eternal foe.

 

[Terthna]

See, it could stop, but that would require Russia to not view genocide as a method of war as valid in the modern era, and view anything the USSR ever touched or stole as belonging to Russia eternally (e.i. the Baltics, Ukraine, Georgia, the Kuriles, etc.).

If Russia stopped invading it's neighbors for a few decades, maybe people wouldn't view Russia as a near-eternal foe.

Maybe; but I doubt it.

 

[posh-goofiness]

You know, that would be more convincing if the media hadn't spent the last 3 years since 2019 gaslighting us about Russian interference in our elections.

Oh wait, it wasn't 3 years. It was 5 years since 2016... ah right, it wasn't 5 years... it was a full decade of propaganda.

Oh riiiight, it wasn't 10 it's actually been a solid CENTURY of Russian demonization.

It's completely unconvincing that media or foreign policy will do away with the anti-Russian sentiment. Ever. It's been the primary goals of first Britain, now the US that Russian be alienated from mainland Europe in general and Germany in specific.

 

[Marduk]

You know, that would be more convincing if the media hadn't spent the last 3 years since 2019 gaslighting us about Russian interference in our elections.

Oh wait, it wasn't 3 years. It was 5 years since 2016... ah right, it wasn't 5 years... it was a full decade of propaganda.

Oh riiiight, it wasn't 10 it's actually been a solid CENTURY of Russian demonization.

It's completely unconvincing that media or foreign policy will do away with the anti-Russian sentiment. Ever. It's been the primary goals of first Britain, now the US that Russian be alienated from mainland Europe in general and Germany in specific.

Remember the reset?
They picked Russia for that smear because it was already a shady hostile state that played funny games (2016 was after 2008 and 2014), not the other way around. Russia even happily obliged by being shady because it sure loves escalating political division in the West in general, and USA in particular.

 

[Terthna]

Remember the reset?
They picked Russia for that smear because it was already a shady hostile state that played funny games (2016 was after 2008 and 2014), not the other way around. Russia even happily obliged by being shady because it sure loves escalating political division in the West in general, and USA in particular.

Still, nobody can't deny that it ended up working in Russia's favor to at least some degree. A lot of people are now more inclined to believe Russia over the United States and Europe, even in the face of what they've been doing in Ukraine.

 

[Marduk]

Still, nobody can't deny that it ended up working in Russia's favor to at least some degree. A lot of people are now more inclined to believe Russia over the United States and Europe, even in the face of what they've been doing in Ukraine.

Which is the beauty of the scheme. A whole bunch of additional cascading confusion and internal factionalism was created - AS INTENDED.

 

[AmosTrask]

Which is the beauty of the scheme. A whole bunch of additional cascading confusion and internal factionalism was created - AS INTENDED.

When has the KGB not sabotaged and disrupted its neighbors and rivals? It just helps them that you Americans are insane and have forgotten that you are all Americans. Both sides are nutjobs. The Republicans will openly fuck you over and not give a shit until it's election time. Then it's lying with promising to help by championing a particular voting group, lies and more lies. The current Democrats don't care. But they do genuinely believe they're the good guys and will try to delay Republican fuckery. However if you've already been screwed over you're SOL. Both parties are ambivalent arse holes but the one side is more openly malevolent.

At least that's how you look to us from outside. The more divided you Yankees are the better for the Commies it is.

Meanwhile in Ukraine Russian Generals are playing Squid Game with their soldiers' live to keep their positions. The dumbasses sending several large armored columns of tanks and vehicles to throughout Donna's. Similar to the start of the invasion last year. Unfortunately for them Ukraine has better artillery and drones now. Those columns got bogged down and slaughtered.

 

[mrttao]

When has the KGB not sabotaged and disrupted its neighbors and rivals?

It was not the KGB who cried "russian collusion" on trump. it was the liberal world order.
I think you are mixing up some posts there

Both sides are nutjobs. The Republicans will openly fuck you over and not give a shit until it's election time. Then it's lying with promising to help by championing a particular voting group, lies and more lies. The current Democrats don't care. But they do genuinely believe they're the good guys and will try to delay Republican fuckery.

Republicans and democrats work together to fuck us over, yes.
We need a 3rd party to knock both out.

 

[LordsFire]

Worse for innocent people. Like the millions of innocent people who have died in the Middle East since the first Gulf War - in Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, Syria, Iran, and Libya. We’re the bad guys.

I’ll look into the China and BLM stuff.

You know nothing of what American involvement in the middle east was like.

You know nothing of how directly and visibly people's lives changed when we booted Saddam from Iraq, when the Taliban was ousted from Afghanistan.

I lived in the Middle East in the 2000's. I saw some of the changes that were visible even from a moderate distance.

The worst thing that the American involvement with the middle east did, from the perspective of the people in those two countries, was end. That resulted in Iraq collapsing, and Afghanistan falling back into the hands of the Taliban. The second-worst thing that the US did, was not force its values on both nations harder, to end monstrous local cultural practices like Bacha-Bazi, and the sheer level of corruption that is considered 'normal.'

Americans were so restrained that almost every enemy just assumed we were weak, because we lacked the willingness to just slaughter them willy-nilly.

Was their collateral damage? Yes.

Were wrong calls made sometimes, that got entire groups of people killed who should not have been? Yes.

Was any of this remotely near as bad as what the people there were already doing to each other before we showed up, and started doing again afterwards?

No, not even close.


You know nothing of what happened in those places, except propaganda from anti-western and hardline isolationist sources, and your words spit on the blood sacrifice made by American soldiers who fought to protect the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, even if America ultimately gave up on the project.

I can respect arguments that we never should have gone there in the first place. I can respect arguments that we should have just bombed the Taliban and Al-Qaeda out of existence, then called job done and gone home.

Your claim here though? It's disgusting.

 

[AmosTrask]

You know nothing of what American involvement in the middle east was like.

You know nothing of how directly and visibly people's lives changed when we booted Saddam from Iraq, when the Taliban was ousted from Afghanistan.

I lived in the Middle East in the 2000's. I saw some of the changes that were visible even from a moderate distance.

The worst thing that the American involvement with the middle east did, from the perspective of the people in those two countries, was end. That resulted in Iraq collapsing, and Afghanistan falling back into the hands of the Taliban. The second-worst thing that the US did, was not force its values on both nations harder, to end monstrous local cultural practices like Bacha-Bazi, and the sheer level of corruption that is considered 'normal.'

Americans were so restrained that almost every enemy just assumed we were weak, because we lacked the willingness to just slaughter them willy-nilly.

Was their collateral damage? Yes.

Were wrong calls made sometimes, that got entire groups of people killed who should not have been? Yes.

Was any of this remotely near as bad as what the people there were already doing to each other before we showed up, and started doing again afterwards?

No, not even close.


You know nothing of what happened in those places, except propaganda from anti-western and hardline isolationist sources, and your words spit on the blood sacrifice made by American soldiers who fought to protect the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, even if America ultimately gave up on the project.

I can respect arguments that we never should have gone there in the first place. I can respect arguments that we should have just bombed the Taliban and Al-Qaeda out of existence, then called job done and gone home.

Your claim here though? It's disgusting.

Many of us outside the US predicted a bad end when you went in. Because we knew you Americans didn't have the political will to stay and build as you did in Europe after WW2. You were too softhanded with people whose culture centered on amoral familism. If you were willing to use the threat of annihilation against entire bloodlines and took guests to foster (hostages, we'll treated and educated but still hostages) you'd have succeeded. For a while the people had hope for the future. Then you left and broke your oath to all those people you promised to protect and uplift.

Unfortunately when it comes to anything outside Europe and North America westerners are predictably apathetic and tolerant of atrocities. Your enemies, Russia and China, knew this and took full advantage of it. It's a damn shame.

 

[KilroywasNOTHere]

Many of us outside the US predicted a bad end when you went in. Because we knew you Americans didn't have the political will to stay and build as you did in Europe after WW2. You were too softhanded with people whose culture centered on amoral familism. If you were willing to use the threat of annihilation against entire bloodlines and took guests to foster (hostages, we'll treated and educated but still hostages) you'd have succeeded.

and if we did that we'd be called the imperialist devils by everyone including the people we were/are, because "something the middle east belongs to us." No thank you not willing to play that game again.

 

[AmosTrask]

and if we did that we'd be called the imperialist devils by everyone including the people we were/are, because "something the middle east belongs to us." No thank you not willing to play that game again.

You were always going to be called that the moment you decided to go in. You may as well have used the blood you spilt to create a lasting change. Now? The enemy will be back within a few years. Especially with the CCP's PLA shifting funding and trainers to make them more effective at fighting you. They'll be used as deniable assets by your state enemies.

 

[Cherico]

You were always going to be called that the moment you decided to go in. You may as well have used the blood you spilt to create a lasting change. Now? The enemy will be back within a few years. Especially with the CCP's PLA shifting funding and trainers to make them more effective at fighting you. They'll be used as deniable assets by your state enemies.

Its not politically possible for us to affect lasting change on anything.

Not with our current leadership.

 

[Megadeath]

Its not politically possible for us to affect lasting change on anything.

Not with our current leadership.

America has had quite a range of "leadership" from 09/11/01. Are you saying that none of them could feasibly have changed the middle east, or are you saying that the failings of governments twenty years ago are somehow the fault of current leadership?

Maybe you mean something else and if so I'd love to hear it. I just can't imagine a reading of what I quoted that's not insulting to you.

 

[Megadeath]

You were always going to be called that the moment you decided to go in. You may as well have used the blood you spilt to create a lasting change. Now? The enemy will be back within a few years. Especially with the CCP's PLA shifting funding and trainers to make them more effective at fighting you. They'll be used as deniable assets by your state enemies.

You imagine too little agency and imagination for the locals. The stupid ones don't really matter, and the smarter ones aren't so dumb they're going to go along with a state even more inimical to them. They've always been perfectly willing to work with anyone to support their cause, and perfectly happy to throw all strategic and tactical considerations out the window to fight their most immediate threats.

 

[mrttao]

> The reason we made things worse is because we are just so gosh darn nice

so... even if this was true, it still doesn't counter the point that america makes things worse for every country it "liberates"

it just tries to excuse it with "we are the good guys. we are just so incompetent that we produce bad results"

 

[Marduk]

> The reason we made things worse is because we are just so gosh darn nice

so... even if this was true, it still doesn't counter the point that america makes things worse for every country it "liberates"

it just tries to excuse it with "we are the good guys. we are just so incompetent that we produce bad results"

Take that with a cold rational view rather than stereotypical west bad leftist one and it's no longer so clear.
Afghanistan? Is the Taliban after USA so much worse than the Taliban before USA? It's the same bloody Taliban.
Iraq? Who is the current government gassing or invading to deserve being called worse than Saddam?

 

[Zachowon]

ORYX: Russia lost 103 vehicles in three days of offensive near Vuhledar and Avdiivka | odessa-journal.com

Among the losses were at least 36 battle tanks. In just three days of the offensive near Vuhledar and Avdiivka, the Russian invaders lost at least 103

odessa-journal.com

 

[Bacle]

America has had quite a range of "leadership" from 09/11/01. Are you saying that none of them could feasibly have changed the middle east, or are you saying that the failings of governments twenty years ago are somehow the fault of current leadership?

Maybe you mean something else and if so I'd love to hear it. I just can't imagine a reading of what I quoted that's not insulting to you.

None of the US presidents since Ike could have made the situation in the ME less fucked after 9/11, but some of them might have been able to waste less blood before they realized 'fixing' the ME is a futile endeavor.

The sands of the ME have been stained with blood for thousands, likely tens of thousands of years, and will for thousands of years more; no American ideals with change that.

We had legit reason to go into A-stan, but should have never moved on Iraq, and the A-stan stuff should have just been a punitive raid/expedition, not this 'nation building' bullshit we got sold.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

If anything, it was Saudi Arabia that ought to have been put to the sword for its role in 9/11. Their money was mixed up in it, and a good chunk of the hijackers were Saudis as well.

That aside, “nation building” could have worked…if America hadn’t tried to ram liberalism and democracy down the throat of societies that don’t have the first clue about such things.