Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Emperor Tippy]

What did Elon Musk actually do?

He told Ukraine that they have to follow the Starlink ToS and if they keep using it on drones and other war fighting assets then he will shut it down for them.

Although honestly, my sympathy for Ukraine (and those in the US bitching at him) on this point is basically non existent. Musk is basically giving all of Ukraine internet access for free, and governments (including the US government) got offended when he told them he wouldn't do it indefinitely and they could pay the bill.

Ultimately, Starlink is a private entity. Thanks to sanctions it can't legally do business with Russia, but it has zero obligation to do dick all for Ukraine. And in terms of both dollar value and actual efficacy, Musk/Starlink is the single biggest private benefactor of Ukraine.

And yet people bitch that he doesn't do more.

 

[Marduk]

It's worth pointing out that American troops in Vietnam and WWII consistently rode on top of their APCs as well. It's not necessarily a doors-jam thing; it's a logical move when mines are the bigger threat than direct-fire AT weapons.

(Note also that mine resistance is one of the biggest advantages of wheeled vs tracked armored vehicles.)

To me it looks like that's a characteristic of older generation AFVs with simple, plain floor that gives little to no mine protection. Once they get dual floors, V shaped hull or similar fancy protective measures this practice disappears.

He's restricting Ukrainian access to Starlink communications, claiming that this is necessary to prevent Ukraine from escalating the conflict into World War III.

That sounds like he's personally a focus of a influence op of some sort. Either that, or it's a wink wink message that this stuff dragging on is hitting SpaceX finances and if there was a specific deal with US government or something, better arrangements could be made - but otherwise, gifted horse's mouth yadda yadda.

IE, he doesn't want to make his satellites military targets and cause kessler syndrome. Reasonable, cutting humanity off from space would be objectively worse than Ukraine outright losing.

This goes into the same problem as the common nuclear war threat. Making the threats costs Russia absolutely nothing, at least nothing it has left to lose. If there is even a small chance they achieve anything material, the return on investment is infinite... Screw their threats.

 

[Cherico]

4 weeks of Putin's New Year offensive. An all out assault from Crimea in the south to Donetsk in the north. Stalingrad style fighting in the cities and human wave assaults in the open fields.

The result? 5 villages taken in exchange for 5000 casualties a week.


Meanwhile Musk being Musk. Is it legal for him to help, albeit indirectly, the Russians? I think that gremlin needs a CIA bullet through his Vatnik loving skull. I wonder how much the KGB offered him to sabotage Ukrainian army coms on the Frontline.

On the Ukrainian side. Ukrainian soldiers are in love with the new Leopards and Bradleys they've received. They're easy to use and the modern computers and modern sights. Plus an interior that is comfortable and designed to keep the crew as protected as possible. As opposed to Russian IFVs where a single dent or scratch on the doors will jam the, shut trapping the crew to burn to death. It's why you see Russians an Ukrainian troops ride on top of their APCs and IFVs and never inside.

Musk has done more for Ukraine then everyone on this message board combined.

 

[Bacle]

This stuff with Musk is both Musk buying Russian threats of nukes if they do not win in Ukraine, and legit business concerns.

While I absolutely support Ukraine, Starlink shit ain't cheap to harden against war-time EWAR stuff, never mind basic upkeep.

Somebody should be paying for Ukraine's Starlink access, particularly with all the aid money going over.

Donatting the initial batch of terminals was agreat gesture, but expecting free Starlink access indefinitely was odd, and not having someone lined up to help pay for it as part of the aid money seems like an oversight.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

This stuff with Musk is both Musk buying Russian threats of nukes if they do not win in Ukraine, and legit business concerns.

While I absolutely support Ukraine, Starlink shit ain't cheap to harden against war-time EWAR stuff, never mind basic upkeep.

Somebody should be paying for Ukraine's Starlink access, particularly with all the aid money going over.

Donatting the initial batch of terminals was agreat gesture, but expecting free Starlink access indefinitely was odd, and not having someone lined up to help pay for it as part of the aid money seems like an oversight.

They already are. It hasn't been talked about very much, but everything after the first few shipments has been under a cost-sharing deal where the U.S. and allied government sponsors are covering all the hardware, SpaceX is donating the service.

 

[Bacle]

They already are. It hasn't been talked about very much, but everything after the first few shipments has been under a cost-sharing deal where the U.S. and allied government sponsors are covering all the hardware, SpaceX is donating the service.

Yeah, the 'donating the service' bit is likely the issue; hardware costs are not what it sounds like the current issue is related to.

Somebody should be handling the subscription bills for Ukraine's military/gov accounts, not just the upfront hardware costs.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

Musk has done more for Ukraine then everyone on this message board combined.

True, but that's not really a fair comparison considering that Musk also has money and resources far in excess of everyone on this message board several times over. Indeed, Musk's inheritance alone is more than all of us put together will likely see in our lives.

 

[LordsFire]

Meanwhile Musk being Musk. Is it legal for him to help, albeit indirectly, the Russians? I think that gremlin needs a CIA bullet through his Vatnik loving skull. I wonder how much the KGB offered him to sabotage Ukrainian army coms on the Frontline.

"You aren't giving enough free stuff to the Ukrainians" is quite an excuse for assassinating someone.

Why not a little gratitude for Musk giving Starlink access for free in the crucial opening days of the war?

I'd personally prefer he kept giving them such support, but giving support to keep civilians on the network, but not enabling military usage, is still support.

 

[Cherico]

True, but that's not really a fair comparison considering that Musk also has money and resources far in excess of everyone on this message board several times over. Indeed, Musk's inheritance alone is more than all of us put together will likely see in our lives.

He didn't have to do anything at all to help them.

 

[mrttao]

He told Ukraine that they have to follow the Starlink ToS and if they keep using it on drones and other war fighting assets then he will shut it down for them.

Although honestly, my sympathy for Ukraine (and those in the US bitching at him) on this point is basically non existent. Musk is basically giving all of Ukraine internet access for free, and governments (including the US government) got offended when he told them he wouldn't do it indefinitely and they could pay the bill.

Ultimately, Starlink is a private entity. Thanks to sanctions it can't legally do business with Russia, but it has zero obligation to do dick all for Ukraine. And in terms of both dollar value and actual efficacy, Musk/Starlink is the single biggest private benefactor of Ukraine.

And yet people bitch that he doesn't do more.

Give a man charity daily, and you will be hated if you ever stop.
Beat a man daily, and you will be loved if you stop.

Ridiculous that some people are literally calling for elon to be assassinated, due to being a "vatnik". because his personal donations to ukraine has limits.

 

[AmosTrask]

He told Ukraine that they have to follow the Starlink ToS and if they keep using it on drones and other war fighting assets then he will shut it down for them.

Although honestly, my sympathy for Ukraine (and those in the US bitching at him) on this point is basically non existent. Musk is basically giving all of Ukraine internet access for free, and governments (including the US government) got offended when he told them he wouldn't do it indefinitely and they could pay the bill.

Ultimately, Starlink is a private entity. Thanks to sanctions it can't legally do business with Russia, but it has zero obligation to do dick all for Ukraine. And in terms of both dollar value and actual efficacy, Musk/Starlink is the single biggest private benefactor of Ukraine.

And yet people bitch that he doesn't do more.

@Cherico Only the first shipment was free. NATO pays for Ukrainian service and gives Musk tax incentives and subsidies he negotiated hard out of Uncle Sam and the Queen. The lying bastard. I guess that wasn't enough money for his greedy ass because his last few months targeting Ukraine has been in the interest of the Kremlin. Fuck Musk.

@LordsFire yes he has credit for that first donation. Then he got NATO to foot the bill and now looks to be courting the Ruble as well. Anything that helps the Commies is treasonous.

 

[Captain X]

I'm sure it didn't help matters that a certain Ukrainian politician felt the need to bite the hand that feeds.

But, yeah, it is pretty ridiculous that neither the US nor Ukrainian governments between them can't actually send a little money to actually help pay for Starlink's use considering all the billions of dollars that are flying around. I have zero doubt that this is do to Biden and co. hating his guts already, and that if it was basically anyone else, there'd be no issue here.

 

[Marduk]

@Cherico Only the first shipment was free. NATO pays for Ukrainian service and gives Musk tax incentives and subsidies he negotiated hard out of Uncle Sam and the Queen. The lying bastard. I guess that wasn't enough money for his greedy ass because his last few months targeting Ukraine has been in the interest of the Kremlin. Fuck Musk.

@LordsFire yes he has credit for that first donation. Then he got NATO to foot the bill and now looks to be courting the Rubble as well. Anything that helps the Commies is treasonous.

Details, where are them...
Do they pay for it on a special contract basis including combat use, or as a plain commercial deal?

 

[Bacle]

Blinken: Crimea a ‘red line’ for Putin as Ukraine weighs plans to retake it

The secretary of state, in a private call with experts, expressed his hesitation about a possible Ukrainian offensive for the peninsula.

www.politico.com

So retaking Crimea would be a 'red line' for Putin that would 'lead to a wider Russian response', and DC is not trying to push Ukraine to retake Crimea.

Either DC is afraid of Putin, or they want to wait till Ukraine cuts the land bridge to Crimea before the support any movement on Crimea.

I hope it's the latter, not the former.

 

[Zachowon]

We said that we consider Crimea Ukraine.
Most likely the latter

 

[Captain X]

Let's see them do anything about it.

 

[AmosTrask]

Remember when Russia massed troops in Belarus last year under the cover of a "Joint Military Training Exercise" just before their invasion? They were doing it again. Except the Ukrainians just responded a few hours ago by detonating demolition charges in standing bridges. Beforehand they'd contented themselves with simply destroying the center span and mining both ends. They just took out all the pillars and foundations and used artillery to damage the Belarusian ends.

The Russians are on Meth and Krokodil if they expected that trick to work twice! I'd have wished to see Putin's face when the news reached Moscow. Hahahaha!

 

[Batrix2070]

Remember when Russia massed troops in Belarus last year under 5he cover of a "Joint Military Training Exercise" just before their invasion? They were doing it again. Except the Ukrainians just responded a few hours ago by detonating demolition charges in standing bridges. Beforehand they'd contented themselves with simply destroying the center span and mining both ends. They just took out all the pillars and foundations and used artillery to damage the Belarusian ends.

The Russians are on Meth and Krokodil if they expected that trick to work twice! I'd have wished to see Putin's face when the news reached Moscow. Hahahaha!

I don't want to spoil your fun, but exactly Russia doesn't need bridges to cross rivers like America does*. Russians can build themselves a new one in a few hours. This will only slow down their attack.

*How do I know? Well the memories of a Polish soldier from recent military maneuvers with the Americans. We were strongly surprised that the US Army can't do it, we can build a new one in a few hours, the Ukrainians can, the Russians can too. And the most powerful army in the world can't do such a simple thing?

 

[AmosTrask]

I don't want to spoil your fun, but exactly Russia doesn't need bridges to cross rivers like America does*. Russians can build themselves a new one in a few hours. This will only slow down their attack.

*How do I know? Well the memories of a Polish soldier from recent military maneuvers with the Americans. We were strongly surprised that the US Army can't do it, we can build a new one in a few hours, the Ukrainians can, the Russians can too. And the most powerful army in the world can't do such a simple thing?

Going by Russia's record in Ukraine crossing rivers I'm not worried. As to Americans not being able to cross rivers, the engineers must have broken down. I've seen them bridge the Ialomita on TVR1. They were training Romanian Army engineers on the American Army engineering vehicles Romania had purchased. Those machines assembled a bridge in twenty-five minutes.

 

[Batrix2070]

Going by Russia's record in Ukraine crossing rivers I'm not worried.

And I would be worried.

As to Americans not being able to cross rivers, the engineers must have broken down.

They know how to put it more accurately, but for much longer than we do.

Those machines assembled a bridge in twenty-five minutes.

Only with machines, without machines it takes them a very long time