Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[LordsFire]

People are always at their most dangerous when they're cornered; you drive them there at your peril.

NATO has never carried out an invasion of Russian soil.

Never.

Not once.

At all.

Ever.


NATO was not posturing about attacking. It was not threatening to attack. It was not even saying 'If you do X, we will attack you,' such as 'We will attack if you invade Ukraine.'

Russia was in no way, shape, or form, backed into a corner. They are purely the aggressor in this war.

 

[Zachowon]

Russia backed into a corner is an excuse for how it is the aggressor

 

[Tiamat]

People are always at their most dangerous when they're cornered; you drive them there at your peril.


Except there was no war. Unless you count the "war against terrorism" as a war; in which case you're essentially arguing that there is never a time when such actions are immoral.


I'm pretty sure you'd be much better at it than I would. "Join the military; no one will ever hold you accountable for your actions ever again, or even acknowledge them, because you kill people for the government".


Again; there was no war going on.


And that is partly why the West gets away with it; because people like you, people with their own agendas and enemies they'd like to point them at, keep making excuses for them.

Seriously, after all this time I’ve concluded that you just have a manic self-hatred over yourself and the West because, what, Trump lost the 2020 election? Is that what this is all about? Is that why you eagerly eat up the Russian BS propaganda because hey, they’re anti West and the enemy of my enemy is my friend??

 

[Arch Dornan]

And that is partly why the West gets away with it; because people like you, people with their own agendas and enemies they'd like to point them at, keep making excuses for them.

People on an internet forum like this with opinions have barely an effect.

It's the people in power and behind the scenes supporting key policies that do get away with it.

 

[Bacle]

I think it's less @Terthna is 'friendly' to Russia, as he simply sees the current situation as the natural evolution of the Maidan coup which frankly NATO isn't innocent in, and the 2020 election showed the US no longer even has the 'functional, fair, and honest' elections, which was something we could always hold over Russia and their ilk before.

However, @Terthna forgets the innocent airliner the rebels downed, the fact Russia used artillery inside Russia to support the Donbass rebels and held up the investigation into that airline shoot down for years. The Russian's have been at war in the Donbass for 8 years or so, in the eyes of the Ukrainian public, not just since earlier this year, as he mistakenly believes.

More than one thing can be true at once, which is where the conflict lies here between people who usually share the same nominal side. All the flaws @Terthna has seen can be in evidence, even if he is mistake about some of the finer details on the ground and feel that the US/NATO are partially/mostly responsible for this war because of the Maidan and lead-up to it, along with the stolen 2020 election.

@Tiamat can also be correct that Russia is mostly responsible for this, because Putin is the one who ordered tanks through Chernobyl and has been stealing grain and his army has stolen damn near everything, including several generations of children who have been kidnapped and sent away to 'proper Russian families'.

The seeds of the conflicts here go back before even WW2 and can be mostly laid at the feet of Lenin, Woodrow Wilson, and the assassin who whacked Franz Ferdinand.

However @Tiamat, you need to understand that in the eyes of many, stuff like Epstein/his connections to possible intel ops/political games, the way the Wu Flu was handled, the stolen election of 2020...it's not just one thing, it's an avalanche of lost trust and misdeeds in the government as a whole which has rendered the Constitution you swore loyalty to null and void.

So you need to understand people like @Terthna and many others have no reason to see your bosses in DC, and people who willing serve and illegit regime, as any more moral, legitimate, or righteous as they claim Putin or Xi are, and willing to give the other side's public level PR shit to be taken seriously.

Personally the only reason I hate Putin and Xi more than Biden is because the first two are competent evil, while Biden is a puppet with Obama's hand up his ass and Jill dosing him to the gills to keep him functional.

 

[Arch Dornan]

I think it's less @Terthna is 'friendly' to Russia, as he simply sees the current situation as the natural evolution of the Maidan coup which frankly NATO isn't innocent in, and the 2020 election showed the US no longer even has the 'functional, fair, and honest' elections, which was something we could always hold over Russia and their ilk before.

However, @Terthna forgets the innocent airliner the rebels downed, the fact Russia used artillery inside Russia to support the Donbass rebels and held up the investigation into that airline shoot down for years. The Russian's have been at war in the Donbass for 8 years or so, in the eyes of the Ukrainian public, not just since earlier this year, as he mistakenly believes.

More than one thing can be true at once, which is where the conflict lies here between people who usually share the same nominal side. All the flaws @Terthna has seen can be in evidence, even if he is mistake about some of the finer details on the ground and feel that the US/NATO are partially/mostly responsible for this war because of the Maidan and lead-up to it, along with the stolen 2020 election.

@Tiamat can also be correct that Russia is mostly responsible for this, because Putin is the one who ordered tanks through Chernobyl and has been stealing grain and his army has stolen damn near everything, including several generations of children who have been kidnapped and sent away to 'proper Russian families'.

The seeds of the conflicts here go back before even WW2 and can be mostly laid at the feet of Lenin, Woodrow Wilson, and the assassin who whacked Franz Ferdinand.

However @Tiamat, you need to understand that in the eyes of many, stuff like Epstein/his connections to possible intel ops/political games, the way the Wu Flu was handled, the stolen election of 2020...it's not just one thing, it's an avalanche of lost trust and misdeeds in the government as a whole which has rendered the Constitution you swore loyalty to null and void.

So you need to understand people like @Terthna and many others have no reason to see your bosses in DC, and people who willing serve and illegit regime, as any more moral, legitimate, or righteous as they claim Putin or Xi are, and willing to give the other side's public level PR shit to be taken seriously.

Personally the only reason I hate Putin and Xi more than Biden is because the first two are competent evil, while Biden is a puppet with Obama's hand up his ass and Jill dosing him to the gills to keep him functional.

It's whatever people see and believe especially if they have a "conscience".

Personally the only reason I hate Putin and Xi more than Biden is because the first two are competent evil, while Biden is a puppet with Obama's hand up his ass and Jill dosing him to the gills to keep him functional.

I have absolutely no confidence in them or their colleagues in their administration.

 

[Terthna]

People who own the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet and the largest country on the planet are never cornered.
Compare to norks who own barely few possibly functional nukes, but aren't neighbored by quick victory grabs, just countries who are both willing and able to kick their ass if they push too far.

A self serving bit of rationalization if I've ever heard one.

Chad yes.

Yes, that's the only option in reality as long as fog of war exists, doubly so with terrorists.
No military can function on the principle of "fight with limited intel, if it turns out the intel missed some civilians some of you go to prison, no ifs and buts."
Seriously, the best use of such a doctrine of implied inaction is to somehow get your enemies to adopt it.

Well, at least you admit that you're a warmonger with absolutely no moral integrity; I'll give you that much credit.

Except the mentioned war on terror, and the civil war in Yemen, where this strike happened.

The former having become just an excuse for military adventurism long before Obama's presidency, while the latter is something that the United State had no business getting involved with.

Ah, so you would prefer if the West didn't get away with it, but everyone else did like they do anyway? Why do you hate the West so much?

You know why; you just don't want to acknowledge it in this context because you're too busy pushing your country's agenda. Not that I necessarily blame you; but you can't expect to be able to shame me into going along with it. The regressive left have given me a lot of practice in no-selling that sort of malarkey.

NATO has never carried out an invasion of Russian soil.

Never.

Not once.

At all.

Ever.


NATO was not posturing about attacking. It was not threatening to attack. It was not even saying 'If you do X, we will attack you,' such as 'We will attack if you invade Ukraine.'

Russia was in no way, shape, or form, backed into a corner. They are purely the aggressor in this war.

The Soviet Union never invaded America either, and yet our government felt that them putting missiles in Cuba (which was in response to us putting missiles in Italy and Turkey) was an existential threat great enough to justify an invasion, until cooler heads prevailed.

Seriously, after all this time I’ve concluded that you just have a manic self-hatred over yourself and the West because, what, Trump lost the 2020 election? Is that what this is all about? Is that why you eagerly eat up the Russian BS propaganda because hey, they’re anti West and the enemy of my enemy is my friend??

I'm under no illusions that Russia is my friend; we have long since passed the point of no return on that front. I'm just not interested in pretending that all of the things wrong with my country magically disappears the moment an enemy is presented for us to fight, especially when some of those things are part of the reason why they're our enemy in the first place. Nor am I going to buy that Ukraine is our friend; not when they're so closely tied to corruption in my government.

Also, there's the fact that Russia has nukes to consider; which everyone who's acting all gung-ho about us Americans fighting them seems to keep pretending they won't use, while they attack anyone who suggests otherwise.

 

[Marduk]

A self serving bit of rationalization if I've ever heard one.

Doesn't make it any less true. You try to paint Russia as if it was in a geostrategic situation of Israel...
But the maps and numbers just don't fit that narrative.

Well, at least you admit that you're a warmonger with absolutely no moral integrity; I'll give you that much credit.

Clueless aspiring moralizers would be better off staying away from the public debate about wars, it's not a good place for them, and they are not a boon to it either. That would be better for their nerves, better for everyone else's nerves, and better for national interests.

The former having become just an excuse for military adventurism long before Obama's presidency, while the latter is something that the United State had no business getting involved with.

If only there were people like you telling all these assorted ambitious third world assholes what conflicts they have no business being involved in too...

You know why; you just don't want to acknowledge it in this context because you're too busy pushing your country's agenda. Not that I necessarily blame you; but you can't expect to be able to shame me into going along with it. The regressive left have given me a lot of practice in no-selling that sort of malarkey.

The malarkey here is that by your shown focus you are laser focused on dramatically limiting the West's ability to make war, with implications going at least as far as Japan's pacifistic constitution that is slowly being ground against now... while not giving much of a damn about how will that affect what the rest of the world does with that topic.
If you are so experienced with the regressive left, you certainly also know that they are insanely anti-patriotic and want the western countries to take every imaginable handicap in their foreign, military and economic policy while not applying those ridiculous standards to non-western countries at the same time.
This includes adopting precisely the same stance on military matters you are presenting here. Doesn't that make you wonder?

The Soviet Union never invaded America either, and yet our government felt that them putting missiles in Cuba (which was in response to us putting missiles in Italy and Turkey) was an existential threat great enough to justify an invasion, until cooler heads prevailed.

Do you struggle with differentiating between nuclear missiles and conventional weapons?
If you want to act as if western conventional weapons have the same threat level as nuclear ones, can we also start doing the same regarding every single anti-western country's conventional weapons?

 

[LordsFire]

The Soviet Union never invaded America either, and yet our government felt that them putting missiles in Cuba (which was in response to us putting missiles in Italy and Turkey) was an existential threat great enough to justify an invasion, until cooler heads prevailed.

The Soviet Union had invaded and occupied Poland, Ukraine, Beolorussia, Germany (invasion justified at the time), Kazakhstan, Estonia, Lithuania, Checkoslovakia...

Their occupations were brutal. They practiced an explicit policy of state terror, brutally murdered peaceful dissent, and had an open policy of spreading 'socialism' to the rest of the world. They had spread it to China through Mao, North Korea through the Kims, North Vietnam, and were generally turning as many other parts of the world as they could into brutal dictatorships, including Cuba.


Your comparison of Ukraine refusing to be a Russian puppet any longer, to the US treating the USSR as the existential threat it was doesn't just fall hollow, it actively undermines your own position.

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

Russia backed into a corner is an excuse for how it is the aggressor

It is also copium for the people who are backing Russia "to own the libs" or "own the WEF."

Far as I see it, the Russian Elite are just an opposite side of the same coin. And really, given the timing...I am actually wondering if Putin is still in cahoots with the WEF and the war is just a distraction/tool for them to advance their goals.

 

[Arch Dornan]

The Soviet Union had invaded and occupied Poland, Ukraine, Beolorussia, Germany (invasion justified at the time), Kazakhstan, Estonia, Lithuania, Checkoslovakia...

Their occupations were brutal. They practiced an explicit policy of state terror, brutally murdered peaceful dissent, and had an open policy of spreading 'socialism' to the rest of the world. They had spread it to China through Mao, North Korea through the Kims, North Vietnam, and were generally turning as many other parts of the world as they could into brutal dictatorships, including Cuba.

Rhetoric is such a peculiar belief when I consider what went on during the Cold War as they justify themselves on the ends.

 

[Zachowon]

Russia has the highest HIV rate in the world.
No freedom of speech.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Russia has the highest HIV rate in the world.
No freedom of speech.

Other countries have things others don't. It's how it is even as they still try to live. Shithole or no shithole.

 

[Arch Dornan]

Zelenskyy pushes to grant Poles special status in Ukraine

www.euractiv.com

I don't know much to say.

Putin decree gives all Ukrainians path to Russian citizenship

Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a decree on Monday extending a simplified Russian naturalization process to all citizens of Ukraine

nypost.com

But this? What a coincidence.

 

[Captain X]

No they didn't, you have read some well spun news about that one it seems.
This "totally innocent american child" in reality was not targeted, he was just the 16 year old son of an AQ honcho, being groomed to take up the family craft, and so after daddy died from another drone strike he was hanging out with daddy's work buddies, who happened to be targeted by a drone strike at a time, because being an AQ honcho apparently is not a very safe career that definitely shouldn't have a "bring co-worker's kid to work meetings" day and yet it did. Go sue AQ for extreme child endangerment and radicalising a minor while at it.

You can try to frame it however you want, this is actually an area I agree with Terthna - this was an extra-judicial killing. Effectively, these American citizens were executed by the military without any kind of due process. And that was wrong.

 

[Marduk]

You can try to frame it however you want, this is actually an area I agree with Terthna - this was an extra-judicial killing. Effectively, these American citizens were executed by the military without any kind of due process. And that was wrong.

So what you are proposing instead is that legally speaking a US citizen in any mad max land should be considered the ultimate human shield, and also the catch 22 of being a fugitive from justice, no ifs and buts? Have you thought about all the direct and indirect implications a policy like this would have?
If these people cared about getting their due process they would have hanged out in some civilized country, or even walked right into a US embassy. If they are hanging out with AQ honchos in a warzone, oh well, it's not hard to guess what's their thinking.
If anything, this also puts a question on US policy regarding granting citizenship, because the people in question were US citizens in letter of the law only.

It is also copium for the people who are backing Russia "to own the libs" or "own the WEF."

Far as I see it, the Russian Elite are just an opposite side of the same coin. And really, given the timing...I am actually wondering if Putin is still in cahoots with the WEF and the war is just a distraction/tool for them to advance their goals.

Typical case of a brainbug many westerners are prone to - if one side is bastards, then the other side that i don't know much about has to be the good guys, right? Right?

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

So what you are proposing instead is that legally speaking a US citizen in any mad max land should be considered the ultimate human shield, and also the catch 22 of being a fugitive from justice, no ifs and buts? Have you thought about all the direct and indirect implications a policy like this would have?
If these people cared about getting their due process they would have hanged out in some civilized country, or even walked right into a US embassy. If they are hanging out with AQ honchos in a warzone, oh well, it's not hard to guess what's their thinking.
If anything, this also puts a question on US policy regarding granting citizenship, because the people in question were US citizens in letter of the law only.

I disagree, we shouldn't set that precedent. The Government is just going to run with it and weaponize it. Remember the Feds aren't shy about mercing their own citizens, not only the men, but the women and children!

Typical case of a brainbug many westerners are prone to - if one side is bastards, then the other side that i don't know much about has to be the good guys, right? Right?

Which is why I have learned to cast a pox on both their houses...A POX!

 

[Marduk]

I disagree, we shouldn't set that precedent. The Government is just going to run with it and weaponize it. Remember the Feds aren't shy about mercing their own citizens, not only the men, but the women and children!

So what do you propose be done about obviously disloyal and criminal citizens hanging out in a distant warzone, obviously well outside the reach of any kind of law enforcement or diplomatic effort?

 

[Hlaalu Agent]

So what do you propose be done about obviously disloyal and criminal citizens hanging out in a distant warzone, obviously well outside the reach of any kind of law enforcement or diplomatic effort?

Try them in absentia for treason, and then mark them as enemy combatants.

 

[Marduk]

Try them in absentia for treason, and then mark them as enemy combatants.

In USA, legally impossible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_in_absentia#United_States