Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Floridaman]

If they are not dealing with rebels in their own nation, and said rebels are attacking across the border during a civil war, a punatitive expidition to deal with said rebels, and to show the gov what happens if they do decide to take up Germany's offer, isn't all that outrageous.

However, since I know you are angling to make what Russia is doing in Ukraine seem more acceptable with how you are trying to lead the conversation, remember that the Donbas rebels never attacked Russia, but Pancho did attack the US. And none of that even comes close to excusing Crimea.

Make russia look acceptable? No my point is that neither they nor the US are good actors. Both have decided that imperial ventures are worth blood, and judging by the collapse I see all around me the US is already paying the price with the future of its posterity, while russias fate has been baked in for a long time due to its population collapse.
Edit: and since you seem to want my opinion, no I don't support Russia, but I also don't support the kleptocrats in DC, Kiev, London, Paris or anywhere else for that matter. I am an anarcho-capitalist my opinion of them is every government employee can go burn in hell.

 

[Bacle]

Make russia look acceptable? No my point is that neither they nor the US are good actors. Both have decided that imperial ventures are worth blood, and judging by the collapse I see all around me the US is already paying the price with the future of its posterity, while russias fate has been baked in for a long time due to its population collapse.

I've never heard US servicemen calling home to ask for permission to rape local women; I have heard that from Russian troops.

 

[Floridaman]

I've never heard US servicemen calling home to ask for permission to rape local women; I have heard that from Russian troops.

Why ask for permission, if it never gets brought up. And this was for the "good war".

The GIs who raped France: We know about the mass rape of German women by Stalin's soldiers. Now a new book reveals American troops committed thousands of rapes on French women they were 'liberating'

In What Soldiers Do, Professor Mary Louise Roberts of the University of Wisconsin argues that American GIs committed rape thousands of times during the War. And, more surprisingly still, many of their victims were French.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The Dark Side of Liberation (Published 2013)

“What Soldiers Do: Sex and the American G.I. in World War II France,” a book by the historian Mary Louise Roberts, documents rape and other misconduct among the greatest generation.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Zachowon]

I mean, not on the level of what Russia did. Plus we were actually liked.

 

[Bacle]

Why ask for permission, if it never gets brought up. And this was for the "good war".

The GIs who raped France: We know about the mass rape of German women by Stalin's soldiers. Now a new book reveals American troops committed thousands of rapes on French women they were 'liberating'

In What Soldiers Do, Professor Mary Louise Roberts of the University of Wisconsin argues that American GIs committed rape thousands of times during the War. And, more surprisingly still, many of their victims were French.

www.dailymail.co.uk

The Dark Side of Liberation (Published 2013)

“What Soldiers Do: Sex and the American G.I. in World War II France,” a book by the historian Mary Louise Roberts, documents rape and other misconduct among the greatest generation.

www.nytimes.com

Yes, rape happens in war, that is a known issue.

However, the mindset of actually asking your wife for permission, and of it being a 'sure, but I don't want to hear about it' type issue instead of disgust, shows that this is how dehumanized the Ukrainains have become in Moscow's eyes. Even the LPR/DPR are waking up to the fact that Moscow if a far worse master than Kyiv. Not to mention all the child kidnapping/deportation into Russia taking place in occupied areas.

The US may not be a saint, and frankly be little more than a nuclear armed banana republic.

However that doesn't change that this is a justified war of defense for Ukraine and a glory-seeking/legacy-seeking farce pushed on by Putin's own ill health and desire to have a Lenin/Stalin like legacy in the minds of his people 100 years from now.

This isn't about liking what the US has done, it's about not liking what Putin has decided to do, because Ukraine is a sovereign nation, not a vassal of Moscow or of DC. Though if it's joining the EU I guess it will be Brussel's vassal; not great, but there are worse masters, and they could always leave later like Britain did.

 

[Floridaman]

I mean, not on the level of what Russia did. Plus we were actually liked.

Everyone says they were liked, hell I have read biographies of wehrmacht soldiers where they said they were liked by the locals.

Yes, rape happens in war, that is a known issue.

However, the mindset of actually asking your wife for permission, and of it being a 'sure, but I don't want to hear about it' type issue instead of disgust, shows that this is how dehumanized the Ukrainains have become in Moscow's eyes. Even the LPR/DPR are waking up to the fact that Moscow if a far worse master than Kyiv. Not to mention all the child kidnapping/deportation into Russia taking place in occupied areas.

The US may not be a saint, and frankly be little more than a nuclear armed banana republic.

However that doesn't change that this is a justified war of defense for Ukraine and a glory-seeking/legacy-seeking farce pushed on by Putin's own ill health and desire to have a Lenin/Stalin like legacy in the minds of his people 100 years from now.

This isn't about liking what the US has done, it's about not liking what Putin has decided to do, because Ukraine is a sovereign nation, not a vassal of Moscow or of DC. Though if it's joining the EU I guess it will be Brussel's vassal; not great, but there are worse masters, and they could always leave later like Britain did.

My point is if I regard both sides as corrupt why on earth should I pick a side other than helping the civillians which I already have done months ago when I donated to the red cross, but I am not going to pretend the various kleptocrats of the world have any legitimacy at all.

 

[Bacle]

Everyone says they were liked, hell I have read biographies of wehrmacht soldiers where they said they were liked by the locals.

My point is if I regard both sides as corrupt why on earth should I pick a side other than helping the civillians which I already have done months ago when I donated to the red cross, but I am not going to pretend the various kleptocrats of the world have any legitimacy at all.

Because as much as Ukraine was and is a corrupt place, this war is purging that corruption from it rather handily, while Russia's corruption has turned their army into a hollow shell; only their nukes make them more than a paper tiger.

Also, you do not see Ukrainians shipping away children to be 'adopted in proper Russian families' or Ukrainians digging trenches in irradiated chunks of Chernobyl.

Russia's recklessness near radio-logical things should scare everyone, because that kind of stuff does not always stay isolated, and a lot of people died to clean up those messes the first time. Like, Chernobyl now has a UXO problem, on top of everything else, and may have spread irradiated sands in sandbags all over the place because they gave conscripts pre-1986 maps that predate the incident, and were never updated with the hazard zones/contaminated areas.

Edit: Like the fact their are possibly now cesium contaminated sands in random sandbags in the Russian military across Ukraine and possibly Belarus should scare everyone.

 

[Bacle]

 

[Vaermina]

Yes, they should. They're not going to win by any stretch of the imagination.

Ukraine has already won.

Because their win condition was making it impossible for Russia to win.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Ukraine has already won.

Because their win condition was making it impossible for Russia to win.

I try not to be too optimistic, but the Russians just don't seem to be getting anywhere at the moment and have suffered some pretty horrific casualties. Putin wanted a quick victory and he hasn't bloody well got one.

 

[Tiamat]

I try not to be too optimistic, but the Russians just don't seem to be getting anywhere at the moment and have suffered some pretty horrific casualties. Putin wanted a quick victory and he hasn't bloody well got one.

To be fair, if, and I stress IF, Putin manages to completely secure the Donetsk and Luhansk regions from the Ukrainians, including denying them the chance to reclaim them at any time in the future (though that's also a very big IF), he "can" call that a victory.

The problem is the Russians seems to keep changing the narrative on what exactly the goals are. Supposedly the Russians as of present are now just aiming to secure the two aforementioned regions at this point, but Putin supposedly still wants all of Ukraine. Whatever the endgame is, the Russians are sacrificing a horrific number of men and materials that aren't so easily replaced and will take a while to rebuild, ditto if the sanctions remain in place, and probably will. However this ends after the dust settles, it's unlikely the EU and NATO are going to want to go back to "business as usual" anytime soon with the Russians, which will continue to impact trade and investment, and Russia was already compounded by a number of issues including corruption at all levels plus a declining population, which won't be helped by this conflict either. Any chance the Ukrainians would peacefully integrate with the Russians got pissed away.

Putin could theoretically carve a "win" out of this, he has to unless he wants to be on the business end of another palace coup, but it will likely be a very pyrrhic win at that.

 

[Cherico]

Ukraine has already won.

Because their win condition was making it impossible for Russia to win.

They are no where close to that they need to kill at least 15 times more Russians until they stop.

 

[LordsFire]

The immense amount of reporting from Ukrainian officials that their losses have skyrocketed, their logistics have effectively collapsed and desertion is becoming a serious issue? Russia has about 4x the population and a Pre-invasion economy about 10x the size of Ukraine; basic math dictates the end result of such a conflict all on its own.

I was working up a big long response with lots of links and support. Then I saw that you've been posting on the thread in The War College.

If you're going to actively ignore any evidence that doesn't fit your narrative on that thread, there's no point in trying to get you to pay attention to evidence you don't like here.

 

[Zachowon]

I was working up a big long response with lots of links and support. Then I saw that you've been posting on the thread in The War College.

If you're going to actively ignore any evidence that doesn't fit your narrative on that thread, there's no point in trying to get you to pay attention to evidence you don't like here.

He will just repost his dame arguments and put his fingers in his ears and disappear until small good news for the ruskies cones by then cone out in force

 

[LordsFire]

He will just repost his dame arguments and put his fingers in his ears and disappear until small good news for the ruskies cones by then cone out in force

The particularly bewildering thing is, it's not like a fair number of us in here claim victory is impossible for the Russians. They could win, they even have some meaningful odds of doing so.

It's just that it's far from certain, and at this point even if they do win a conventional military victory, the myth of their military might has been completely shattered, and they might utterly choke on insurgency. Combined with Sweden and Finland both going to join NATO, this war is already a strategic loss for Russia.

Yet he has a religious conviction that Russia is going to win. I just don't get why he can't face that things have gone poorly for the Russians.

Of course, he doesn't seem to be able to handle facing reality about a lot of things.

 

[Zachowon]

The particularly bewildering thing is, it's not like a fair number of us in here claim victory is impossible for the Russians. They could win, they even have some meaningful odds of doing so.

It's just that it's far from certain, and at this point even if they do win a conventional military victory, the myth of their military might has been completely shattered, and they might utterly choke on insurgency. Combined with Sweden and Finland both going to join NATO, this war is already a strategic loss for Russia.

Yet he has a religious conviction that Russia is going to win. I just don't get why he can't face that things have gone poorly for the Russians.

Of course, he doesn't seem to be able to handle facing reality about a lot of things.

He probably thinks because of how woke the western countries has become and Ukraine is one of them that the Russians winning is the better thing.

Or he is just doing what he always does and being a Russian Chinese Palestinian shill.

But Russia can win basically a tactical victory and then suffer heavy losses and be no longer number 2 army.
It just is not likely they will or confirmed.

 

[Terthna]

The particularly bewildering thing is, it's not like a fair number of us in here claim victory is impossible for the Russians. They could win, they even have some meaningful odds of doing so.

It's just that it's far from certain, and at this point even if they do win a conventional military victory, the myth of their military might has been completely shattered, and they might utterly choke on insurgency. Combined with Sweden and Finland both going to join NATO, this war is already a strategic loss for Russia.

Yet he has a religious conviction that Russia is going to win. I just don't get why he can't face that things have gone poorly for the Russians.

Of course, he doesn't seem to be able to handle facing reality about a lot of things.

Personally, I think they will win in the end; but it'll be a pyrrhic victory that won't last.

 

[Cherico]

The particularly bewildering thing is, it's not like a fair number of us in here claim victory is impossible for the Russians. They could win, they even have some meaningful odds of doing so.

It's just that it's far from certain, and at this point even if they do win a conventional military victory, the myth of their military might has been completely shattered, and they might utterly choke on insurgency. Combined with Sweden and Finland both going to join NATO, this war is already a strategic loss for Russia.

Yet he has a religious conviction that Russia is going to win. I just don't get why he can't face that things have gone poorly for the Russians.

Of course, he doesn't seem to be able to handle facing reality about a lot of things.

I think Russia will most likely win this war, the Ukraine is wide open flat land, its now a war of attrition and russia out numbers the Ukranians by a fair clip and the Russians willingness to use shear brutality means that I think their just going to strait out genocide the Ukraianians, I mean they have genocided them before after all.

Thing is even after winning this war and commiting genocide on a level not seen since ww2 Russia still has shit demographics. It is still a pariah state, their leadership is still limited to post soviet KGB bros who are aging into death. In the long run Russia collapses.

That said maybe the Sanctions, and massive support can turn the tide but the Ukrainains need to kill a lot of Russians at least half a million probally more. They need to fight russia until the Russians can fight any more and that is a tall order.

 

[Marduk]

I think Russia will most likely win this war, the Ukraine is wide open flat land, its now a war of attrition and russia out numbers the Ukranians by a fair clip and the Russians willingness to use shear brutality means that I think their just going to strait out genocide the Ukraianians, I mean they have genocided them before after all.

Thing is even after winning this war and commiting genocide on a level not seen since ww2 Russia still has shit demographics. It is still a pariah state, their leadership is still limited to post soviet KGB bros who are aging into death. In the long run Russia collapses.

That said maybe the Sanctions, and massive support can turn the tide but the Ukrainains need to kill a lot of Russians at least half a million probally more. They need to fight russia until the Russians can fight any more and that is a tall order.

If Russians were competent and/or followed their hardliners, declared outright full mobilization and attacked conventionally with a near million strong army from day one you would be right.
Now, however, with the failed special operation turned into slow, limited scale invasion with peacetime military, they are at severe risk of defeat in detail.
Their are bleeding the hell out of their quality specialist units, closest they have to professionals, due to lack of numbers and support forces, especially in infantry, while Ukraine gets strengthened by the slowly incoming western hardware. If this keeps up long enough their army will be in shambles for a decade, even mobilization will no longer be surefire victory.

 

[WolfBear]

Strelkov was literally claiming Russia would collapse if it didn't fully mobilize to support Assad in 2015.

I have a lot of respect for Strelkov given he literally formed the DPR out of his drinking buddies in 2014 before then effectively fighting the Ukrainian Army to a standstill with said rag tag force. Since then, however, he was forced out because of politics and he's been something of a known Doomer in Russian circles for years. Given the background as to why he doesn't have an official position, taking that into consideration with his analysis needs to be said.

Do you believe that, without him, there would have been no Donbass War at all?