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Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

WolfBear

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I've said it before, but I honestly I would respect the position more if they were just honest about it coming from Nationalist grounds and cut out the fake moralizing. Like, I do not get along at all with @Marduk, but I have said before I can respect his position more than I can the others, simply because it's pretty obviously motivated out of Eastern European ethnic grievances. Honestly kinda based, if wrong and fool hardy in my estimation. The Ukrainians I interact with never shy away from this aspect, don't do the fake morality stuff, and it's why I get along well with them; otherwise it's just an insult to my intelligence to pretend Russia invading Ukraine is bad when we invaded Iraq as I was growing up.
Well, TBF, I do think that there is a moral distinction between these two invasions: The US invaded Iraq in part in order to spread freedom and democracy (something that Iraqis themselves apparently wanted when they previously rebelled against Saddam in 1991, at US encouragement) while the Russian invasion of Ukraine was in large part to secure Ukraine's human capital for Russia. The US invasion of Iraq was at least theoretically meant to also benefit Iraqis in a considerably larger way than the Russian invasion of Ukraine was. (Yes, Ukrainians would be better off economically as a part of Russia, but they'd also become less free, and in any case, unlike with the US and Iraq, Russia could have had open borders with Ukraine without any wars.)
 

History Learner

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Well, TBF, I do think that there is a moral distinction between these two invasions: The US invaded Iraq in part in order to spread freedom and democracy (something that Iraqis themselves apparently wanted when they previously rebelled against Saddam in 1991, at US encouragement) while the Russian invasion of Ukraine was in large part to secure Ukraine's human capital for Russia. The US invasion of Iraq was at least theoretically meant to also benefit Iraqis in a considerably larger way than the Russian invasion of Ukraine was. (Yes, Ukrainians would be better off economically as a part of Russia, but they'd also become less free, and in any case, unlike with the US and Iraq, Russia could have had open borders with Ukraine without any wars.)
What's interesting is this rationale was not used to justify the invasion in the lead up to it nor does it appear in the planning documents. Officially, it only occurred because Iraq presented a threat to the national security of the United States by having WMDs...sound familiar, given the Russian position on NATO membership for Ukraine and biolabs schtick from earlier this year?
 

Arch Dornan

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I ain't defending because I am compelled too.
Bad shit has happend in my military. We have dine plenty if bad things.
But we arnt on the level of countries like Russia, China, Syria, South American dictatorships, Middle Eastern dictatorships.

Hell, did you not hear what happend in Myanmar? A concert was air strikes by the Junta.

Sure we may have had a strike on a wedding or killed some innocents.
But countries and governments that follow the same way Russia and China do have committed so many more issues.
BECAUSE they follow them.
Of course they do. They play a similar playbook except they're more free to do it how they like.
I've said it before, but I honestly I would respect the position more if they were just honest about it coming from Nationalist grounds and cut out the fake moralizing. Like, I do not get along at all with @Marduk, but I have said before I can respect his position more than I can the others, simply because it's pretty obviously motivated out of Eastern European ethnic grievances. Honestly kinda based, if wrong and fool hardy in my estimation. The Ukrainians I interact with never shy away from this aspect, don't do the fake morality stuff, and it's why I get along well with them; otherwise it's just an insult to my intelligence to pretend Russia invading Ukraine is bad when we invaded Iraq as I was growing up.
It's fine by me. Just the way it is with differences in opinions.
 

Arch Dornan

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Like I said, I get along fine with actual Ukrainians. My AFU friend was part of the offensive in Kharkov, I know a Ukrainian girl in Zaporozhye effectively living on the frontline, etc. The Western backs just strike me as too dishonest typically.
Who are these western backs you speak of?
 

Arch Dornan

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Typo, meant backers. I just meant Pro-Ukraine people in the West tend to try to strike this Black and White picture when the reality doesn't reflect that.
That one's real easy. They're not in Ukraine. To be fair I'm not in there either but I wouldn't want to be in a warzone so I can only listen to what the information peddlers have to say and filter out what is real or not with my own common sense.

As for them they can believe what they want. The rest is up to the actual participants to see it in their favor and make their outcome a reality.

But even that reality may prove cynical if their backers have something else in mind rather than what the winning participant wants.
 

History Learner

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That one's real easy. They're not in Ukraine. To be fair I'm not in there either but I wouldn't want to be in a warzone so I can only listen to what the information peddlers have to say and filter out what is real or not with my own common sense.
Exactly that; when you present the conflict as black or white, they stop analyzing the information objective or with common sense. This "Rape Kits with Viagra" was an obvious example, given their claim for months is that Russian soldiers aren't getting ammunition or food, but somehow they're getting penis pills? Like I said, it's just an insult to my and your intelligence.

As for them they can believe what they want. The rest is up to the actual participants to see it in their favor and make their outcome a reality.
Follow small Ukrainian Nationalist accounts on Twitter, the digital warfare between them and the NAFO types is something to see.
 

Arch Dornan

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Follow small Ukrainian Nationalist accounts on Twitter, the digital warfare between them and the NAFO types is something to see.
It's the evolution in propoganda warfare.

Exactly that; when you present the conflict as black or white, they stop analyzing the information objective or with common sense. This "Rape Kits with Viagra" was an obvious example, given their claim for months is that Russian soldiers aren't getting ammunition or food, but somehow they're getting penis pills? Like I said, it's just an insult to my and your intelligence.
Wasn't that same accusation used in Libya?
 

History Learner

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It's the evolution in propoganda warfare.
It's mostly just funny to me seeing Westerners running up into what actual Ukrainian Nationalists see and think. The NAFO picture of Ukraine is a land fighting for Gay Rights or whatever, and it's true the Maidan Government brought about the first pride parades to Ukraine after 2014. Actual Ukrainian Nationalists, meanwhile, got their Polish Far Right brothers to attack the gays at the Warsaw Pride event this year lol.
 

Arch Dornan

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It's mostly just funny to me seeing Westerners running up into what actual Ukrainian Nationalists see and think. The NAFO picture of Ukraine is a land fighting for Gay Rights or whatever, and it's true the Maidan Government brought about the first pride parades to Ukraine after 2014. Actual Ukrainian Nationalists, meanwhile, got their Polish Far Right brothers to attack the gays at the Warsaw Pride event this year lol.
War makes strange bedfellows. After something's I've seen I can say it semi literally too.
 

History Learner

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War makes strange bedfellows. After something's I've seen I can say it literally too.
Some interesting examples are the head of Wagner complimenting their Ukrainian foes at Bakhmut for being excellent foes, given they are fellow Slavs and thus excellent warriors. Meanwhile one of Zelensky's main advisers did an interview and specifically said if Russia wins 500,000 AFU soldiers will join the 2.5 million strong Russian Army and reconquer the Warsaw Pact. They say these things while they're committing war crimes on each other every day lol.

There's the healthy respect for the enemy they both exhibit there, which I find lacking in the Western Pro-Ukrainian types or the like. Certainly us on the Pro-Russian side, have had to eat our words from earlier in the war, given the unexpected resilience of the AFU.
 
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Arch Dornan

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Some interesting examples are the head of Wagner complimenting their Ukrainian foes at Bakhmut for being excellent foes, given they are fellow Slavs and thus excellent warriors. Meanwhile one of Zelensky's main advisers did an interview and specifically said if Russia wins 500,000 AFU soldiers will join the 2.5 million strong Russian Army and reconquer the Warsaw Pact. They say these things while they're committing war crimes on each other every day lol.

There's the healthy respect for the enemy they both exhibit there, which I find lacking in the Western Pro-Ukrainian types or the like. Certainly us on the Pro-Russian side, have had to eat our words from earlier in the war, given the unexpected resilience of the AFU.
I'm sure we'll see more surprises in store at the conclusion.
 

History Learner

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I'm sure we'll see more surprises in store at the conclusion.
You're not wrong; Russian contacts/friends keep sending me random Confederate flag pictures (Joke playing on the Novorossiya flag), meanwhile Ukrainian propaganda at the trench level has things like "Ukraine to the Urals" floating around. Eastern Europe is a magical place lol.
 

Arch Dornan

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You're not wrong; Russian contacts/friends keep sending me random Confederate flag pictures (Joke playing on the Novorossiya flag), meanwhile Ukrainian propaganda at the trench level has things like "Ukraine to the Urals" floating around. Eastern Europe is a magical place lol.
One of these days I bet I'm going to see a scarred rainbow flag in the textbooks.
 

mrttao

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It's mostly just funny to me seeing Westerners running up into what actual Ukrainian Nationalists see and think. The NAFO picture of Ukraine is a land fighting for Gay Rights or whatever, and it's true the Maidan Government brought about the first pride parades to Ukraine after 2014. Actual Ukrainian Nationalists, meanwhile, got their Polish Far Right brothers to attack the gays at the Warsaw Pride event this year lol.
which is why it is critically important for globohomo agenda that as many of them die as possible in the war.
shifting the demographics from conservative to liberal
not the first time it was done
 

History Learner

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One of these days I bet I'm going to see a scarred rainbow flag in the textbooks.
There are openly Gay Ukrainian volunteer formations and Antifa types on their side, so it's possible. Meanwhile Carpathian Sich guys quietly just kill them when they get the chance lol.
 

History Learner

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which is why it is critically important for globohomo agenda that as many of them die as possible in the war.
shifting the demographics from conservative to liberal
not the first time it was done
Indeed, and this is one of the reasons why I've taken a Pro-Russia stance. I get Pro Ukraine Leftists, because at least that tends to have a cohesive world view, but Western Conservatives/Rightists doing so makes no sense unless they're a Boomer unwilling to move past the Cold War. The litmus test for me was, why are Hillary Clinton, George Soros, etc all backing Ukraine and against Russia? I've never seen a plausible argument against that, and was all I needed to see for bias confirmation in of itself.

If the people who hate me and want my demise are supporting something, and putting a lot of money into it too, then it is only natural to take the opposite side to fuck with them.
 

Arch Dornan

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There are openly Gay Ukrainian volunteer formations and Antifa types on their side, so it's possible. Meanwhile Carpathian Sich guys quietly just kill them when they get the chance lol.
I thought the idea of rainbow flags being used in war as ironically funny but I may just regret it if the monkey paw through the people in power in the west supports it.
 

History Learner

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I thought the idea of rainbow flags being used in war as ironically funny but I may just regret it if the monkey paw through the people in power in the west supports it.
Just be glad the heyday of Syria is over, that one was extremely confusing kek, but I digress.
 
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