The goals of the US and Ukraine are the same.
Destroy Russian military
Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion
- Thread starter Zachowon
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Destroy Russian military
And how does it affect the point at all? Whether one gets foreign hardware through oil money or diplomacy, it's still nothing even close to said foreign country fighting for them.
And would Ukraine be receiving this aid if Russia hadn’t invaded? I doubt it. Therefore, my point still stands.
They were though.
Not the same amount but plenty.
The Javes were a Trump thing. Training.
Etc
There’s more to NATO then the USA buddy.
By your logic, Soviet Union, France, UK and so on didn't fight in WW2, only USA, because everyone got a lot of US aid just because they were invaded by Nazis.
Morphic Tide
Well-known member
The point still stands that Ukraine's successes are primarily driven by exterior support, because the breakdown of the force is more direct NATO aid than local means of resistance.
No, it would be that the Nazis were de facto fighting the USA long before Pearl Harbor, because their opponents really only held ground due to US aid. The point is not "Ukraine isn't the one fighting Russia", the point is "Russia is fighting more than Ukraine". This is proxy war bullshit 101, in the freshman geopolitics course.
Wrong...
If the "local means of resistance" suck, no amount of resource support can get anything done.
See: Afghanistan.
See: Iraqis abandoning fully functional M1's.
Not even one modern tank or plane,38 HIMARS,about 200 155mm guns....rest - old missiles,IFV and ammo,which NATO would scrapple anyway.
Yes,kgbstan surely is facing entire might of NATO
Considering the gear the USA sold were rated to last only another year maybe three of full service and the USA is charging brand new prices. . . Yeah. The Eastern NATO gear is even more ancient than the American gear. The USA is making a killing in future profits and guaranteed favorable contracts in the rebuilding. While destroying the threat of Russia for generation or more. By which point USA technology will outstrip Russia and China making them irrelevant.Not even one modern tank or plane,38 HIMARS,about 200 155mm guns....rest - old missiles,IFV and ammo,which NATO would scrapple anyway.
Yes,kgbstan surely is facing entire might of NATO
Morphic Tide
Well-known member
Resource support is means. Your counter-examples are MOTIVE.
Without Starlink, they'd have incredibly limited communications by comparison, utterly crippling any kind of large-scale operation. Without the raw materiel, they'd have faced severe crunches in important areas by now. Without the finances, they'd have to juggle paying for hardware, maintenance, rations, and wages, most likely failing somewhere. And with the stuff being foreign aid, it's far less work to defend access because Russia starting shit over it risks Article 5.
The things they are doing could not be done without the piles of NATO support, which have been described as "fighting to the last Ukrainian" in official Biden administration statements. The Ukranian military is being used as a proxy by NATO to fight Russia, plain and simple, nobody up top is even pretending otherwise.
So what?
Material support still doesn't replace the troops, the organization, the institutional culture and its leadership... It's still the latter fighting, we still don't live in Total Annihilation where robot armies fight. It's not that different from Soviets and UK getting US material support in WW2, or Vietnam getting support from USSR and China (and in that case the support was kinda more direct).
History Learner
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Indeed, in 2019 RAND Corporation produced the policy paper titled "Extending Russia":
Yes, the report says directly that about arming Ukraine, which @Zachowon noted started in 2018 under the Trump Administration:
Also of note is this is the table of contents:
This war is the end result of years of the United States provoking the Russians into a direct conflict at every opportunity. Lethal aid to Ukraine? Started in 2018, RAND directly notes it can lead to war. Regime change in Belarus? Attempted in 2020, Lukashenko managed to fight it off. Exploit tensions in the South Caucasus? Done, via American-Israeli support to the Azeris, who defeated the Pro-Russian Armenians in their conflict in late 2020. Russian influence in Central Asia? Riots in Kazakhstan back in January, border battles between the Tajiks and Kyrgyz a few months ago. Also, in case anyone claims the Russians were making up the NATO membership threat up for Ukraine, ask them about NATO making Ukraine an Enhanced Opportunities Partner in June of 2020:
Make no mistake, the U.S. provoked this war and is using other people as cannon fodder to achieve its geopolitical aims.
History Learner
Well-known member
*Comparing a COIN conflict to Force on Force*
*comparing a nation the US left 2 years prior that actually lasted for those 2 years to a failed pullout that invovled pulling all military out in a night and forcing an evacuation in a civilian airport.*
Now, compare how Russia is doing to how the US did in both Iraq in 03 and in Desert Storm
Unencumbered by idiotic politics. The USA won both Vietnamese wars but could not complete the campaign because politics held them back. The same thing happened in Afghanistan. Read what you are replying to before you move on to 4Chan bullshit click bait pictures.
History Learner
Well-known member
Original poster didn't make that distinction either, did they?
U.S. signed the Doha Agreement in 2020, and started the withdrawal in early 2021. Final withdraw was occurring as the Taliban overran the country, notably defying the predictions of the entire U.S. intelligence apparatus which failed to anticipate such an eventuality.
I thought we couldn't compare COIN to force on force? The irony of attacking me for doing exactly what you proceed to do is not lost on me.
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