Fallout The Eagle And The Bear [Fallout AU]

SuperHeavy

Well-known member
But what's up with all those thin lines inside of Germany? Are those administrative sub-units or counties are something? And why are some white while other ones are red?
Perhaps the orange are the core territories the modern German state developed from and the white is post Great War expansion.
 

ForeverShogo

Well-known member
Kind of surprised there's any kind of Switzerland left, all things considered. The Swiss are pretty German, all things considered. As are the Dutch, but the Netherlands is like super fucked if I remember right.

Anyways . . . I think that chunk of France and Belgium is meant to be Burgundy.

Kind of hoping Germany will be able to annex their puppets, the Swiss, and whatever is left of the Dutch. Just to have really strong European allies for America.

Though what I'm really curious about . . . Is that Greater Bulgaria or Greater Greece?
 

Crow gotta eat

That peckish, patriotic, Protestant passerine.
Kind of surprised there's any kind of Switzerland left, all things considered. The Swiss are pretty German, all things considered. As are the Dutch, but the Netherlands is like super fucked if I remember right.
Well, despite everything, Swiss neutrality is still probably be expected and allowed by Europe, plus the fact that they are a heavily mountainous region which provides some definite problems in conquering/occupying.

Also because no one probably has any (recent) historical casus belli against Swizterland and seeks to burn any potential political clout in attacking a country that has probably just either left everyone else alone after rebuilding itself or maybe even done some trading with them. That is not even mentioning their before-war status of constant neutrality. Heck the most outside militaristic action they probably do is keep sending the Pope his new Swiss Guard as needed.
Though what I'm really curious about . . . Is that Greater Bulgaria or Greater Greece?
The Greater Republic of Formerly Just North Macedonia, obviously. 😛

But more seriously, if I had to guess, it would be Greece or some neo-Byzantine state (that is really just still Greece). If not some new personal union like the Austira-Hungary or the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth except it is with Greece and Bulgaria.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Perhaps the orange are the core territories the modern German state developed from and the white is post Great War expansion.

The orange are first-level German internal divisions, the grey are second-level.

Those lines look like legacy leftovers from a map that had the HRE more then anything else.

That's because the internal borders of the German Empire have largely been restored.

Kind of surprised there's any kind of Switzerland left, all things considered. The Swiss are pretty German, all things considered. As are the Dutch, but the Netherlands is like super fucked if I remember right.

I tried to sink parts of the Low Countries but couldn't get it to look right.

Anyways . . . I think that chunk of France and Belgium is meant to be Burgundy.

Correct.

But more seriously, if I had to guess, it would be Greece or some neo-Byzantine state (that is really just still Greece).

Also correct.
 

liberty90

Evil Neoliberal Cat
Poland without any western territories would probably want to expand east more than only up to pre-war border, if there are only barbarians around. Of course maybe they barely control their own core, that would explain current border. Still, Lviv (Lwów) is pretty deeply buried in Polish national myths.
 

Kioras

Active member
Too much technology has been lost and with liquid and probably gas petro largely gone most of Europe is probably experiencing a nasty mix of steam and coal technology and those states that know how to build or maintain fission reactors can probably keep a higher technology.

Germany is an ally of EUSA probably god some tech transferred. Much of many wars in Europe probably are an unholy mix of WWI era equipment and some later era equipment.

I wonder if Germany still looks east or are they mostly concentrated on climbing out of the hole still.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Chapter 18 sneak peek:

==*==

GENERAL ORDER 12823

TO:
All officers and NCOs involved in Operation Kodiak (Full List Appended)
FROM: General (5-star) Lance Edmund Martin Robertson
DATE: 12-18-31, Two-Hundred Hours


Enclave artillery have countered our own with exceptional ease and in general fired with uncanny accuracy in the field. Veterans of First and Second Houston, as well as Dallas, have repeatedly reported anomalous behaviour by local birds before these barrages. In response, I am giving a standing order that all birds that move within three hundred meters of NCR troops or otherwise behave strangely in the vicinity of combat operations are to be shot immediately by small arms. This order is to be adhered to until the final defeat of the Enclave.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Too much technology has been lost and with liquid and probably gas petro largely gone most of Europe is probably experiencing a nasty mix of steam and coal technology and those states that know how to build or maintain fission reactors can probably keep a higher technology.

Britain has large supplies of oil in the south-east, as were recently discovered IRL, and is Germany's main source of oil in addition to itself. Germany for its own sake wants to become a fission-based society but E-USA won't give it the technical know-how.

Germany is an ally of EUSA probably god some tech transferred.

We'll see their tech (and the British) relatively soon.

Much of many wars in Europe probably are an unholy mix of WWI era equipment and some later era equipment.

Indeed. There was a reason the French got so utterly rolled fifteen years ago.

I wonder if Germany still looks east or are they mostly concentrated on climbing out of the hole still.

If they go conquering in the east beyond their current borders, E-USA would cease to view them favourably. They know what this would do to their economy.
 

Kioras

Active member
Britain has large supplies of oil in the south-east, as were recently discovered IRL, and is Germany's main source of oil in addition to itself. Germany for its own sake wants to become a fission-based society but E-USA won't give it the technical know-how.

So we are not using the mid 90s assumption of total oil being discovered and consumed by the 2070s.

I assume you mean a fusion-based society as it avoids many of the other long-lasting negative byproducts of fission. Fission is also possible to do with the mid 1950s or 1960s technology so Germany should have the know-how to repair or rebuild those plants.

Even if they have to dig up old nukes for the fuel at first.

The EUSA does not want to let that technology out as it is the legacy technology the old world that they will hold over everyone else. I wonder if the NCR spread out fusion technology in the China trade or if they hoarded it.

If they go conquering in the east beyond their current borders, E-USA would cease to view them favourably. They know what this would do to their economy.

EUSA is probably one of the few actual fully recovered states in the world. Germany can probably get along just as well using puppets or settlers if they go East anyways.

In the long run, the technology to get to space should be there in a Fallout technology level and once they get into space many of the resource issues existing will slowly fade over time.

Heavy research into space should be done in some of the major nations, however, due to tech loss, I doubt any other nation is even close to getting into orbit again.

Then again for EUSA, they had to concentrate on local warfare and handling the NCR first for the simple fact that the NCR will not leave them alone and both are expansionistic powers.

I do wonder how China managed to be a threat since they do state the leading ideology of China is Maoism which should have left them becoming a larger North Korea.
 

SuperHeavy

Well-known member
I do wonder how China managed to be a threat since they do state the leading ideology of China is Maoism which should have left them becoming a larger North Korea.
They seemed to have a fully functional society and strong industrial base so Fallout China must have not followed the same principles as our Mao.
 

Kioras

Active member
They seemed to have a fully functional society and strong industrial base so Fallout China must have not followed the same principles as our Mao.

They could have moved to Maoism after the resource crunch, away from the policies of Deng Xiaoping when they started to push very aggressively to take over SE Asia and loot everything they could elsewhere in the world.

Then again, like a lot of entertainment don’t think too hard on politics because the writers often have no clue on economic and social realities the policies would create.
 

ForeverShogo

Well-known member
Well, 400 million barrels worth of oil and gas were discovered in 2008. Eleven years after Fallout 1 was released.

You could maybe posit that, for whatever reason, that oil was just never discovered in the Fallout timeline until after the nukes started flying. Especially when, as far as anyone knew, Alaska was supposed to have had the last of the oil.

So you've got the British and Germans drawing on that, and maybe Germany doing what Germany does and going fucking nuts on synthetic fuels.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
So we are not using the mid 90s assumption of total oil being discovered and consumed by the 2070s.

Yes, because it's unworkable given the oil discoveries since then. And at any rate, the majority of Middle Eastern oil being nuked by Israel in the 2050s as part of a reaction to the Palestinian nuclear attack on Tel Aviv, then getting destroyed during the European Commonwealth's invasion of the ME to grab what was left, is more than enough to bring about the great energy crisis that led to WW3.

Even if they have to dig up old nukes for the fuel at first.

Why do you think they took over Bohemia?

The EUSA does not want to let that technology out as it is the legacy technology the old world that they will hold over everyone else. I wonder if the NCR spread out fusion technology in the China trade or if they hoarded it.

China has fusion from other sources.
 

Ptolemy

New member
Some thoughts:

Although Walt Irving is amusing in terms of just how badly mistaken he is, I feel like he's almost a caricature, rather than an actual person. In particular, the way he cites his own books as evidence for why he's right, rather than any actual physical evidence, is ludicrous. If this is intended as a jab at modern academia, it's also pretty drastically wide of the mark.

While I still really like this idea (and I was a fan of the original Autumn Morning on SB), I feel like there are some missed opportunities. In particular, by seeking to reconstruct the US as it was pre-war, the story seems to disregard all the ways in which the pre-war US was fundamentally corrupt and deeply flawed; indeed, Fallout as a whole is a brutal satire on capitalism, consumerism, and Western imperialism.

I think it would have been more interesting to consider what actual changes could have been made to prevent the same problems from arising. With regards to the political system, there could be increased government transparency outside of matters of national security, and increased protections against gerrymandering and voter suppression. For voting, FPTP could have been ditched in favour of AV, STV, or any number of fairer and more proportional alternatives, killing the two party system outright.

The House of Representatives (and the Electoral College), could have been altered so that district sizes were the same across the different states, so that seats were actually proportional to population, as they were intended to be. The Bill of Rights could have been updated with far more explicit defences of human rights and civil liberties, and the judiciary could have been made more independent.

To prevent big corporations from amassing too much power, and avoid repeating the corruption embodied by Poseidon Energy and others, there could be greater restrictions on campaign finance and lobbying (e.g. no more super PACs). Equally, to prevent them from exploiting consumers, there could be stronger antitrust laws, restrictions against price gouging (e.g. massive cost inflation of pharmaceuticals), increased workers' rights, and more. The incestuous Military Industrial Complex could have been dismantled, and prevented from influencing army officers and politicians.

Massive IRL issues, like healthcare (with some 20 million still without coverage, and another 60-80 million underinsured) could have been solved with a single-payer system, or even by creating some kind of NHS. IRL the US is the only advanced country without Universal Healthcare, despite spending twice as much as a share of GDP as most countries do (including public and private healthcare, by the way), and also has worse metrics for pretty much everything, from life expectancy to maternal and child mortality.

It seems strange that someone like Autumn both wouldn't have recognised those problems, and wouldn't have tried to fix them, particularly when he and other senior Enclave members were well aware of just what Richardson and co had attempted to do prior to the destruction of Enclave Station One and Navarro. They had an opportunity to fix the United States, and despite knowing everything they did, they chose to restore it just as it was, warts and all.

Again, I don't think it makes Autumn Morning and the Eagle and the Bear somehow "bad", but I just think it could have added a level of depth, and served as a commentary on Fallout and what the setting is all about.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Some thoughts:

Although Walt Irving is amusing in terms of just how badly mistaken he is, I feel like he's almost a caricature, rather than an actual person. In particular, the way he cites his own books as evidence for why he's right, rather than any actual physical evidence, is ludicrous. If this is intended as a jab at modern academia, it's also pretty drastically wide of the mark.

I mean, from his (and the NCR's perspective) the E-USA is saying they've reformed and are being all democratic and all while:

A. Denying what Richardson did.
B. Continuing to build statues of and naming capital ships after him.
C. Having his descendants still play a major role in politics.
D. Making belligerent noises toward the NCR and allies.
E. Intelligence from within and reports from those fleeing recently-annexed regions still give evidence of brutally totalitarian behaviour.
F. Making ludicrous propaganda claims along the lines of what comes out of North Korea IRL.

So why shouldn't Irving be skeptical? Remember, the NCR has even less inside knowledge of E-USA than we had of the USSR during the Cold War (at least we had embassies in Moscow):

During the Cold War, lack of reliable information about the country forced Western analysts to "read between the lines" and to use the tiniest tidbits, such as the removal of portraits, the rearranging of chairs, positions at the reviewing stand for parades in Red Square, the choice of capital or small initial letters in phrases such as "First Secretary", the arrangement of articles on the pages of the party newspaper Pravda and other indirect signs to try to understand what was happening in internal Soviet politics.

To study the relations between Communist fraternal states, Kremlinologists compared the statements issued by the respective national Communist parties, looking for omissions and discrepancies in the ordering of objectives. The description of state visits in the Communist press were also scrutinized, as well as the degree of hospitality lent to dignitaries. Kremlinology also emphasized ritual, in that it noticed and ascribed meaning to the unusual absence of a policy statement on a certain anniversary or holiday.[5]

In the German language, such attempts acquired the somewhat derisive name "Kreml-Astrologie" (Kremlin Astrology), hinting at the fact that its results were often vague and inconclusive, if not outright wrong.

Any analysis is inevitably going to involve large amounts of guesswork and extrapolation from limited data, especially when large amounts of the data are treated as dubious.

n particular, by seeking to reconstruct the US as it was pre-war, the story seems to disregard all the ways in which the pre-war US was fundamentally corrupt and deeply flawed

Was it corrupt and flawed? Certainly. Fundamentally so? Not, at least insofar as all countries will inevitably be corrupt.

Indeed, Fallout as a whole is a brutal satire on capitalism, consumerism, and Western imperialism.

I mean, it also accepts them as facts of life, as I do.

I think it would have been more interesting to consider what actual changes could have been made to prevent the same problems from arising. With regards to the political system, there could be increased government transparency outside of matters of national security, and increased protections against gerrymandering and voter suppression.

I mean, you would see less gerrymandering in E-USA's districts, generally because politics is far less partisan.

For voting, FPTP could have been ditched in favour of AV, STV, or any number of fairer and more proportional alternatives, killing the two party system outright.

FPTP has its benefits, and there are good arguments in favour of a two-party system.

The House of Representatives (and the Electoral College), could have been altered so that district sizes were the same across the different states, so that seats were actually proportional to population, as they were intended to be.

A problem with that is that the HoR now serves as the Commonwealths' contribution to the legislature. As for the EC there is an idea that all the States should follow Maine's example IRL (and in FOverse) but political reform is in general hard to do while also carrying out major military and industrial build-ups and the general consensus is that such should be left up to the States. Political capital isn't an infinite resource.

The Bill of Rights could have been updated with far more explicit defences of human rights and civil liberties

I don't really see a reason why E-USA should want or need to update them. Judging by the Fallout series, pre-War America was already racially integrated, had women in the workforce (and in front-line military roles) and tolerated sexual minorities.

To prevent big corporations from amassing too much power, and avoid repeating the corruption embodied by Poseidon Energy and others, there could be greater restrictions on campaign finance and lobbying (e.g. no more super PACs).

I mean, politicians have to get campaign funding somehow.

Equally, to prevent them from exploiting consumers, there could be stronger antitrust laws, restrictions against price gouging (e.g. massive cost inflation of pharmaceuticals), increased workers' rights, and more.

I mean, there are anti-trust laws, workers' rights protections and such. I just don't focus overly on them.

The incestuous Military Industrial Complex could have been dismantled, and prevented from influencing army officers and politicians.

Dismantle the military-industrial complex? While prepping for a major war? I mean, as I noted, the establishment in E-USA's Legislature would prefer to deal with the NCR later rather than sooner. Partly because of the risks of war, partly because actually incorporating the old States back again would put them at the mercy of actually having constituents (also with no continental threats there'd be no need for a massive land army and lots of military contracts would go bye-bye).

Massive IRL issues, like healthcare (with some 20 million still without coverage, and another 60-80 million underinsured) could have been solved with a single-payer system, or even by creating some kind of NHS. IRL the US is the only advanced country without Universal Healthcare, despite spending twice as much as a share of GDP as most countries do (including public and private healthcare, by the way), and also has worse metrics for pretty much everything, from life expectancy to maternal and child mortality.

There is a National Health Authority, though it's more reminiscent of the more market-based European systems IRL (the NHS and other systems based on the Beveridge Model are far from ideal).

It seems strange that someone like Autumn both wouldn't have recognised those problems, and wouldn't have tried to fix them, particularly when he and other senior Enclave members were well aware of just what Richardson and co had attempted to do prior to the destruction of Enclave Station One and Navarro. They had an opportunity to fix the United States, and despite knowing everything they did, they chose to restore it just as it was, warts and all.

I mean their POV (and mine) was that Richardson's actions were not an inevitable result of pre-War America's flaws but a contingent series of events that had relatively little to do with them, seeing how pre-War America was not a racist country and did not see its war with China as a racial one. I mean, E-USA knows pre-War America was flawed. It also views it as the best that could be achieved.
 
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Argent

Well-known member
Detailed map of Europe, w/ some minor retcons from the world map:

2wsIgMG.png

Germany certainly won after the War.
 

ForeverShogo

Well-known member
Funny thing is, ditching first-past-the-post for one of the proportional voting systems would probably be truer to the vision of the Founding Fathers. Simply because FPTP encourages a two-party system while proportional encourages a multi-party system. (At least according to Duverger's law.)

The Founding Fathers weren't really fans of the concept of political parties, but recognized them as a necessary evil. Mostly because they felt they were to blame for the civil wars the British went through in the 17th century, AND because they thought political parties to be a corrupt remnant of British monarchism that would get in the way of "true democracy".

But they especially hated the idea of a two-party system.

George Washington himself warning against allowing the two-party system to cement itself after seeing just how ugly things got with the Federalist and Democratic-Republicans. A warning which was promptly ignored.

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries which result gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of public liberty. "

I'm honestly surprised we didn't end up using the Jefferson system for proportional voting. Just to further dilute the power of the parties and make them easier to manage - as the Founders intended. (Okay, technically for the House of Representatives we used it until 1842 . . . But we probably should have kept it.)

The Jefferson method might also be known/recognized as the D'Hondt method. Because for some reason, even though Jefferson came up with it almost 100 years before the guy, it's fucking named after some Belgian mathematician.
 
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Paladin Wulfen

Well-known member
[QUOTE = "Navarro, publicación: 100059, miembro: 27"]
Mapa detallado de Europa, con algunos retcons menores del mapa mundial:

2wsIgMG.png

[/CITAR] As a Spaniard I am curious .... how will Spain be after the Great War. Spain, although it seems very united, has many independence movements such as Catalan, Basque, Galician even in Andalusia ... It would be logical to see Catalonia as a mercantile Republic protected by PMCs. Basque Country with Highlanders style troops even the Galicians with their naval tradition ... and drug trafficking as a drug dealer. While Andalusia would be something style the resurgence of an Andalusian Kingdom.
 

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