Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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King Arts

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How do they not owe reparations for all the damage done in Ukraine by their military?
If they want to refuse at any cost and be unwilling to settle the matter for good, complete with paying what they owe, then they need to be treated accordingly - it's basically a North Korea situation in that case.
Because they can see what guilt did to the west.

Cheaper gas that's cheaper only because it's sanctioned - Russia was never a charity and always sold it at best price market would take, unless favors were involved, but then one paid with a piece of sovereignty. Acknowledge it or not, apologize or not, Japan still had to pay reparations, and not just to USA.
Yes it's not a charity but here is the thing the big oil producing nations are a clique they work together to have good profits, and that they won't be forced to bow to the west just because. Do you think Russia is alone, what about Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, etc. The only big oil producing nations that are western that I know of is America and Norway. Here is the thing OPEC is a cartel they work together to ensure that they are secure. They are not going to throw one of their own out just because of shit that they don't care about. They would require serious bribes to even consider weakening each other because if one goes down they know the rest of them are more vulnerable. The west does not want to pay those prices.

As for Japan those were forced by the US. If there was no occupation then Japan would not have paid a cent.
 

Marduk

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Because they can see what guilt did to the west.
I think they would rather pay reparations with guilt than real money if push comes to shove.
Still, Japan paid reparations, yet doesn't have the western problems.
Yes it's not a charity but here is the thing the big oil producing nations are a clique they work together to have good profits, and that they won't be forced to bow to the west just because. Do you think Russia is alone, what about Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, etc.
Yeah, i'm sure Venezuela and Saudi Arabia will love to tell USA to get fucked and bear the consequences to get the favor of war-weary Russia instead. That's gonna work out well for them for sure...

The only big oil producing nations that are western that I know of is America and Norway. Here is the thing OPEC is a cartel they work together to ensure that they are secure. They are not going to throw one of their own out just because of shit that they don't care about. They would require serious bribes to even consider weakening each other because if one goes down they know the rest of them are more vulnerable. The west does not want to pay those prices.
These countries are not in a position to dictate terms to the West unless the West us foolish enough to allow them.
As for Japan those were forced by the US. If there was no occupation then Japan would not have paid a cent.
Well if Russia doesn't ever want its cozy western trade and political relations back, they can take that option, but i'm not as sure as you that they would choose it so easily.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
I think they would rather pay reparations with guilt than real money if push comes to shove.
Still, Japan paid reparations, yet doesn't have the western problems.
Just barely, they paid and now there are still some people saying it's not enough. Look up any thread about comfort women or whatever on spacebattles.
Yeah, i'm sure Venezuela and Saudi Arabia will love to tell USA to get fucked and bear the consequences to get the favor of war-weary Russia instead. That's gonna work out well for them for sure...
Yes, they would. Venezuela for sure they don't like America. As for Saudi well it depends they do rely on the US for security so that is a lever we can use to influence them. But again remember they are about as disloyal as Pakistan AND there is OPEC solidarity to consider. If one of the OPEC nations undercuts the others that risks the wealth of all the others they know this that's what the cartel is based on those nations know that if they work together it's better for them.
These countries are not in a position to dictate terms to the West unless the West us foolish enough to allow them.
Yes they can, they can tell you to fuck off because you need to trade with them they set the prices they are the ones who decide how much to drill. You can't sanction all of them. Unless you are going to invade in which case your moral arguments about Ukraine are bankrupt and that might be enought to give Russia a second wind through trade with India and the rest of the non western world.
Well if Russia doesn't ever want its cozy western trade and political relations back, they can take that option, but i'm not as sure as you that they would choose it so easily.
I mean they might it'd be one of the dumber sanctions the west has put in place. Congrats we are gonna not trade with someone for 20 30 40 100 years because you want them to say sorry and give you free stuff?
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
I mean they might it'd be one of the dumber sanctions the west has put in place. Congrats we are gonna not trade with someone for 20 30 40 100 years because you want them to say sorry and give you free stuff?

'Give you free stuff.'

Is that really what you think is being talked about?

One of the most basic tenets of law, civil, criminal, and international, is that if you destroy someone else's property, you must make restitution.

In civil and criminal law, this is damages, a fine, prison time, or a combination of all three. In international law, this means you either get conquered, you get slapped with onerous terms on a peace treaty IE war reparations, or you get sanctioned.

This is something that goes back centuries, if not millennia, in human civilization. It's part of the basic concept of law and order. Do bad things, get smacked for it.

What about this is hard to understand?
 

Cherico

Well-known member
'Give you free stuff.'

Is that really what you think is being talked about?

One of the most basic tenets of law, civil, criminal, and international, is that if you destroy someone else's property, you must make restitution.

In civil and criminal law, this is damages, a fine, prison time, or a combination of all three. In international law, this means you either get conquered, you get slapped with onerous terms on a peace treaty IE war reparations, or you get sanctioned.

This is something that goes back centuries, if not millennia, in human civilization. It's part of the basic concept of law and order. Do bad things, get smacked for it.

What about this is hard to understand?

Russia has nukes, their not paying a damned cent, best Ukraine can do is put Tarrifs on all Russian goods to get their money back.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Just barely, they paid and now there are still some people saying it's not enough. Look up any thread about comfort women or whatever on spacebattles.
>people saying it's not enough
Well it's said about regarding Turkey and Russia too...
Yes, they would. Venezuela for sure they don't like America. As for Saudi well it depends they do rely on the US for security so that is a lever we can use to influence them. But again remember they are about as disloyal as Pakistan AND there is OPEC solidarity to consider. If one of the OPEC nations undercuts the others that risks the wealth of all the others they know this that's what the cartel is based on those nations know that if they work together it's better for them.
Venezuela is a third world shithole that has probably already made behind the scenes deals with USA to back down on regime change ideas, but that could
And yes, Saudis are reliant on US security guarantees. Russia is in no position to replace those even if it wanted to and could be trusted to despite their relationship in Iran. And no amount of OPEC solidarity will cover up the fact that Iran is gunning for them, just like few alternative Sunni factions, so much for OPEC solidarity.
Remember that Iraq and Kuwait were in OPEC too when their unga bunga happened?
Making 10 or 20% more on oil is all good and nice, but whatever solidarity that might inspire definitely cannot overcome the fact that few other members want to string up you and the whole royal family and then probably take over your oil production anyway.
Yes they can, they can tell you to fuck off because you need to trade with them they set the prices they are the ones who decide how much to drill.
Closing down and opening new wells is not something as willy nilly as you imply. It works closer to the meme with banks. If ane of the OPEC countries decide to drill a little less, you have a problem. If they decide to drill a lot less, they have a problem.
You can't sanction all of them. Unless you are going to invade in which case your moral arguments about Ukraine are bankrupt and that might be enought to give Russia a second wind through trade with India and the rest of the non western world.
Imagine thinking India bases its decisions on the credibility of western moral arguments regarding Russia of all things :D.

The problem is that the non-western world does not buy and sell the same things Russia used to get from the West.
Like advanced electronics, aircraft parts or high end oil industry hardware.
I mean they might it'd be one of the dumber sanctions the west has put in place. Congrats we are gonna not trade with someone for 20 30 40 100 years because you want them to say sorry and give you free stuff?
Look at some other anti-western countries like Iran and North Korea, how long are they sanctioned?

How else do you imagine the situation after the war?
"Great, let's forget about all the things said and done, the losses, the military aid, the nuclear threats, the economic threats, the grand plans of conquest and just go back to trading as if nothing happened because line must go up!"

Russia has crossed some lines as far as the western world is concerned, and it cannot be trusted with business as usual, certainly if it refuses to even make amends for what it did (with the silent implication of trying again as soon as they get prepared for war again because why the hell not).
I have no idea how exactly the reparations will work and how big they will be, but some kind of them will definitely be pushed on Russia as a condition of normalization of relations.
 
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Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
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Russia has nukes, their not paying a damned cent, best Ukraine can do is put Tarrifs on all Russian goods to get their money back.
Oh, Russia can be made to pay if it ever wants to trade with the West again, once Putin is removed.

Slapping tarriffs on Russia goods, and sanctioning anyone in Russia who avoid the reparations tarriffs, would be a rather easy way to get Ukraine's reparations.

In other news, Putin just dismissed the Latvian and Estonian Ambassadors.
 

King Arts

Well-known member
'Give you free stuff.'

Is that really what you think is being talked about?

One of the most basic tenets of law, civil, criminal, and international, is that if you destroy someone else's property, you must make restitution.

In civil and criminal law, this is damages, a fine, prison time, or a combination of all three. In international law, this means you either get conquered, you get slapped with onerous terms on a peace treaty IE war reparations, or you get sanctioned.

This is something that goes back centuries, if not millennia, in human civilization. It's part of the basic concept of law and order. Do bad things, get smacked for it.

What about this is hard to understand?
Yes it is giving free stuff. Unless you are all in support of France giving reparations to Haitii for how they were mistreated, or that America should give reparations to Iraq for the invasion and damage it did?

Also your examples are shit because you don't seem to understand civil and criminal law exist because the government has authority over you, international law is a meme. Because there is no one above Russia legally the UN is not an actual thing, for international law to be real the UN would have to be a one world government and above the nations just like how the federal government is above the states. It would need an advanced army that is loyal to it instead of the nations, technology intelligence, etc. The only way you have someone above another nation is if you conquer them and impose your own laws, but as long as Russia has nukes that's not happening.

>people saying it's not enough
Well it's said about regarding Turkey and Russia too...
Again people say thats not enough. Russia has no reason to pay, in that case. In the 1800's when reparations were a more minor thing if you lose a war and it was not seen as such a bad thing as today it would be diffrent. But now it's a moral thing and the government of Russia will flat out refuse.

Venezuela is a third world shithole that has probably already made behind the scenes deals with USA to back down on regime change ideas, but that could
And yes, Saudis are reliant on US security guarantees. Russia is in no position to replace those even if it wanted to and could be trusted to despite their relationship in Iran. And no amount of OPEC solidarity will cover up the fact that Iran is gunning for them, just like few alternative Sunni factions, so much for OPEC solidarity.
Remember that Iraq and Kuwait were in OPEC too when their unga bunga happened?
Making 10 or 20% more on oil is all good and nice, but whatever solidarity that might inspire definitely cannot overcome the fact that few other members want to string up you and the whole royal family and then probably take over your oil production anyway.
Yes OPEC does not always get along, thats why I said you might be able to isolate ONE of the powers. But if they see you try to weaken OPEC itself then the other powers will wise up, and find some form of protection from the west maybe nukes maybe something else.

Closing down and opening new wells is not something as willy nilly as you imply. It works closer to the meme with banks. If ane of the OPEC countries decide to drill a little less, you have a problem. If they decide to drill a lot less, they have a problem.
Yes they can't shut down everything because they won't get paid then. But they can affect production heavily and they do to make prices artificially high.

The problem is that the non-western world does not buy and sell the same things Russia used to get from the West.
Like advanced electronics, aircraft parts or high end oil industry hardware.
I'm pretty sure there are places that are advanced that aren't western like China for those advanced electronics.

Look at some other anti-western countries like Iran and North Korea, how long are they sanctioned?

How else do you imagine the situation after the war?
"Great, let's forget about all the things said and done, the losses, the military aid, the nuclear threats, the economic threats, the grand plans of conquest and just go back to trading as if nothing happened because line must go up!"

Russia has crossed some lines as far as the western world is concerned, and it cannot be trusted with business as usual, certainly if it refuses to even make amends for what it did (with the silent implication of trying again as soon as they get prepared for war again because why the hell not).
I have no idea how exactly the reparations will work and how big they will be, but some kind of them will definitely be pushed on Russia as a condition of normalization of relations.
What if they stubbornly refuse to admitt guilt no matter what? Do you honestly think a democracy is able to keep sanctions going and diplomatic isolation for hundreds of years? Those nations Iran and North Korea are sanctioned because they are ongoing threats Iran is a threat to Israel and Saudi Arabia, North Korea to South Korea. If those nations achieved their goals of taking over South korea for example and the US was soundly beaten and couldn't push them back eventually there would be no point as they can't go farther. A better example for you would be Cuba which has been sanctioned for 30 years for no reason it can't be used as a base for the Soviets anymore. For Russia it depends. If Russia is pushed back and Ukraine stays out of NATO then the threat remains so yes, if Russia is pushed back and Ukraine then joins NATO then while there might be a threat it is also less likely because Russia would not want to die to NATO. If Russia wins and conquers Ukraine then while there might be sanctions because we are salty we lost, again the threat would be minimized because they can't expand anymore without hitting NATO which would lead to nuclear war and everyone dies.
Oh, Russia can be made to pay if it ever wants to trade with the West again, once Putin is removed.

Slapping tarriffs on Russia goods, and sanctioning anyone in Russia who avoid the reparations tarriffs, would be a rather easy way to get Ukraine's reparations.

In other news, Putin just dismissed the Latvian and Estonian Ambassadors.

Tarriffs aren't what one normally considers "reparations" though. Yes you could take assets from Russia to try and recoup losses like material they leave behind, or assets in the west. But reparations mean you say you are sorry, admit you were wrong, say you will try not to do it again, and then give extra money.

I wonder if this mean Putin is going after their countries next?
No those are NATO, that would lead to nuclear war.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Yes it is giving free stuff. Unless you are all in support of France giving reparations to Haitii for how they were mistreated, or that America should give reparations to Iraq for the invasion and damage it did?

Also your examples are shit because you don't seem to understand civil and criminal law exist because the government has authority over you, international law is a meme. Because there is no one above Russia legally the UN is not an actual thing, for international law to be real the UN would have to be a one world government and above the nations just like how the federal government is above the states. It would need an advanced army that is loyal to it instead of the nations, technology intelligence, etc. The only way you have someone above another nation is if you conquer them and impose your own laws, but as long as Russia has nukes that's not happening.


Again people say thats not enough. Russia has no reason to pay, in that case. In the 1800's when reparations were a more minor thing if you lose a war and it was not seen as such a bad thing as today it would be diffrent. But now it's a moral thing and the government of Russia will flat out refuse.


Yes OPEC does not always get along, thats why I said you might be able to isolate ONE of the powers. But if they see you try to weaken OPEC itself then the other powers will wise up, and find some form of protection from the west maybe nukes maybe something else.


Yes they can't shut down everything because they won't get paid then. But they can affect production heavily and they do to make prices artificially high.


I'm pretty sure there are places that are advanced that aren't western like China for those advanced electronics.


What if they stubbornly refuse to admitt guilt no matter what? Do you honestly think a democracy is able to keep sanctions going and diplomatic isolation for hundreds of years? Those nations Iran and North Korea are sanctioned because they are ongoing threats Iran is a threat to Israel and Saudi Arabia, North Korea to South Korea. If those nations achieved their goals of taking over South korea for example and the US was soundly beaten and couldn't push them back eventually there would be no point as they can't go farther. A better example for you would be Cuba which has been sanctioned for 30 years for no reason it can't be used as a base for the Soviets anymore. For Russia it depends. If Russia is pushed back and Ukraine stays out of NATO then the threat remains so yes, if Russia is pushed back and Ukraine then joins NATO then while there might be a threat it is also less likely because Russia would not want to die to NATO. If Russia wins and conquers Ukraine then while there might be sanctions because we are salty we lost, again the threat would be minimized because they can't expand anymore without hitting NATO which would lead to nuclear war and everyone dies.

Tarriffs aren't what one normally considers "reparations" though. Yes you could take assets from Russia to try and recoup losses like material they leave behind, or assets in the west. But reparations mean you say you are sorry, admit you were wrong, say you will try not to do it again, and then give extra money.


No those are NATO, that would lead to nuclear war.
Going to war with NATO foes not guarantee Nuclear War
 

LordsFire

Internet Wizard
Yes it is giving free stuff. Unless you are all in support of France giving reparations to Haitii for how they were mistreated, or that America should give reparations to Iraq for the invasion and damage it did?

Also your examples are shit because you don't seem to understand civil and criminal law exist because the government has authority over you, international law is a meme. Because there is no one above Russia legally the UN is not an actual thing, for international law to be real the UN would have to be a one world government and above the nations just like how the federal government is above the states. It would need an advanced army that is loyal to it instead of the nations, technology intelligence, etc. The only way you have someone above another nation is if you conquer them and impose your own laws, but as long as Russia has nukes that's not happening.

A serious question: Are you trolling? Are you deliberately being obtuse to provoke a reaction?
 

King Arts

Well-known member
Going to war with NATO foes not guarantee Nuclear War
It’s pretty damn likely. If a nuclear power is losing and its territory or its ally is going to be taken nukes will fly. Let’s give an example pretend Russia gets stronger and they invade the Baltics, they are able to go into Poland but are pushed back. When we go to get the Baltics back the Russians push us back. The war becomes a stalemate. I know in reality the Russian forces aren’t that strong but this is a hypothetical. Are we just going to let the Russians hold the Baltics? I’d think nukes would be appropriate wouldn’t you?
A serious question: Are you trolling? Are you deliberately being obtuse to provoke a reaction?
No I’m not. International law is a meme it only applies to the loser that’s why no American will ever stand trial at The Hague.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
Yes it is giving free stuff. Unless you are all in support of France giving reparations to Haitii for how they were mistreated,
It's a legal thing, it's a matter of time, and they already got a whole bloody island out of the deal, if anything they should be paying because that's a pretty valuable island from what i've heard.
or that America should give reparations to Iraq for the invasion and damage it did?
To who? It would be a total mess, including paying to people who absolutely deserved damage (Saddam's enforcers) while the benefits (like Kurds not being gassed and Shia getting some political freedoms) would not be counted, perhaps the reparations would have to go the other way even.
Also your examples are shit because you don't seem to understand civil and criminal law exist because the government has authority over you, international law is a meme. Because there is no one above Russia legally the UN is not an actual thing, for international law to be real the UN would have to be a one world government and above the nations just like how the federal government is above the states. It would need an advanced army that is loyal to it instead of the nations, technology intelligence, etc. The only way you have someone above another nation is if you conquer them and impose your own laws, but as long as Russia has nukes that's not happening.
By that logic, if Ukraine drives out Russian armies from own territories, all it should do is simply take over some border cities from Russia and loot them down to the bricks, Russian way, and call it reparations. Kidnap some people into forced labor while at it. That's what you get without legal international reparations and international law, just plain eye for an eye.
Again people say thats not enough. Russia has no reason to pay, in that case. In the 1800's when reparations were a more minor thing if you lose a war and it was not seen as such a bad thing as today it would be diffrent. But now it's a moral thing and the government of Russia will flat out refuse.
a) Perhaps it will, but it won't be out of your reasoning stuck in the logic of western internal politics, Russia doesn't give a shit - it would be out of long term decision to remain in conflict with the West, Iran/NK style.
b) The moral thing goes only as far as the morality and ideology attached.
c) War reparations are a legal thing, and were that before they became a moral one.
d) Those certain movements demanding reparations from western countries, well, they never got non-war reparations back when they were relevant yet still demand them now, so not paying reparations in no way guarantees avoiding future demands for reparations. Discarding the particular ideology that demands it does.
Yes OPEC does not always get along, thats why I said you might be able to isolate ONE of the powers. But if they see you try to weaken OPEC itself then the other powers will wise up, and find some form of protection from the west maybe nukes maybe something else.
You are dramatically overestimating unity of OPEC and its competence, while underplaying the importance of western involvement in ME (so cursed by certain people) to the security of many OPEC members.
Yes they can't shut down everything because they won't get paid then. But they can affect production heavily and they do to make prices artificially high.
Also capping wells is not so quick, simple and easy, penalties for set contracts broken and so on.
I'm pretty sure there are places that are advanced that aren't western like China for those advanced electronics.
So why didn't Russia put those in their weapons instead of those from France, Taiwan and USA, knowing that West and company will probably cut them off from spare parts after their moves?
Yeah, China either doesn't have that or won't sell it if it does.

What if they stubbornly refuse to admitt guilt no matter what?
No one gives a shit as long as accounts are settled.
Do you honestly think a democracy is able to keep sanctions going and diplomatic isolation for hundreds of years? Those nations Iran and North Korea are sanctioned because they are ongoing threats Iran is a threat to Israel and Saudi Arabia, North Korea to South Korea. If those nations achieved their goals of taking over South korea for example and the US was soundly beaten and couldn't push them back eventually there would be no point as they can't go farther. A better example for you would be Cuba which has been sanctioned for 30 years for no reason it can't be used as a base for the Soviets anymore. For Russia it depends. If Russia is pushed back and Ukraine stays out of NATO then the threat remains so yes, if Russia is pushed back and Ukraine then joins NATO then while there might be a threat it is also less likely because Russia would not want to die to NATO. If Russia wins and conquers Ukraine then while there might be sanctions because we are salty we lost, again the threat would be minimized because they can't expand anymore without hitting NATO which would lead to nuclear war and everyone dies.
You are arranging fantasies of threats and lack of them according to personal imagination alone.
Where does North Korea expand so that it's a threat? SK is in alliance with USA too, let's not forget.
Likewise, without a major change in government Russia will remain a hostile neighbor to NATO, even if it no longer has low hanging fruit to expand into (also let's not forget how it fucked with countries that it could not expand into anyway, including Czechia, UK and Spain).
Same goes for Cuba, it's still a politically and ideologically hostile to USA shithole and is being treated accordingly.
Iran and NK are still sanctioned, and conveniently keep reminding everyone why.
If Russia acts the same way (and manages to remain stable in that for hundreds of years by a lot of luck), i see no reason why it wouldn't be treated the same way.
Tarriffs aren't what one normally considers "reparations" though. Yes you could take assets from Russia to try and recoup losses like material they leave behind, or assets in the west. But reparations mean you say you are sorry, admit you were wrong, say you will try not to do it again, and then give extra money.
No, war reparations are meant to compensate for damage done. Again, you are applying the logic of western internal ideological debate to international politics outside of the West.
What's the financial mechanism for paying them is a technical detail that's up for negotiation.
No those are NATO, that would lead to nuclear war.
If he uses nukes or gets some truly miraculous degree of success.
 
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Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Maybe not guarantee, but a damned big chance. MAD exists for a reason, once either side loses sufficiently, that big red button looks awfully appealing.
I doubt. Because US is the only one with first strike policy
It’s pretty damn likely. If a nuclear power is losing and its territory or its ally is going to be taken nukes will fly. Let’s give an example pretend Russia gets stronger and they invade the Baltics, they are able to go into Poland but are pushed back. When we go to get the Baltics back the Russians push us back. The war becomes a stalemate. I know in reality the Russian forces aren’t that strong but this is a hypothetical. Are we just going to let the Russians hold the Baltics? I’d think nukes would be appropriate wouldn’t you?

No I’m not. International law is a meme it only applies to the loser that’s why no American will ever stand trial at The Hague.
Russia doesn't have the same strike policy as the US you know
 
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