Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Marduk]

If anything, it was Saudi Arabia that ought to have been put to the sword for its role in 9/11. Their money was mixed up in it, and a good chunk of the hijackers were Saudis as well.

That aside, “nation building” could have worked…if America hadn’t tried to ram liberalism and democracy down the throat of societies that don’t have the first clue about such things.

Unless America was willing to go full China on them and stay for 40 years minimum, no, it couldn't have worked, at least not for long.
Lack of such willingness also makes knocking down SA pointless. Who do you replace the current rather amicable (SA government was not exactly in great relations with Osama at the time of 9/11 to say it lightly, as he was trying to undermine the ruling dynasty earlier) if incompetent monarchy with? Some even more incompetent bunch who are even less capable to get the islamists of the now more chaotic and militant country in line?

If USA was a different country with a different culture and political customs, who absolutely would be willing to just send the army and replace the government with an outright military governor being the highest instance of the new government for decades to come, and arrange the permanent disappearance of every Saudi resident who as much as speaks a single good word about an islamist, it would have been a different discussion, but that's not the case.

 

[Prince Ire]

and if we did that we'd be called the imperialist devils by everyone including the people we were/are, because "something the middle east belongs to us." No thank you not willing to play that game again.

The US was in Afghanistan almost as long as the various League of Nations mandates lasted, and those are all considered French and British colonies (despite technically being something else legally). I could easily see Afghanistan being regarded as a pseudo-colony from 2001-2021 by future historians.

> The reason we made things worse is because we are just so gosh darn nice

so... even if this was true, it still doesn't counter the point that america makes things worse for every country it "liberates"

it just tries to excuse it with "we are the good guys. we are just so incompetent that we produce bad results"

It also ignores that the USSR killed 10% of Afghanistan's population and similarly failed. Though I'm sure there are some here who will declare that was just because they weren't bringing Glorious Liberal Democracy (TM) with them and that the US totally would have succeeded if it had been similarly brutal.

 

[Cherico]

America has had quite a range of "leadership" from 09/11/01. Are you saying that none of them could feasibly have changed the middle east, or are you saying that the failings of governments twenty years ago are somehow the fault of current leadership?

Maybe you mean something else and if so I'd love to hear it. I just can't imagine a reading of what I quoted that's not insulting to you.

I am saying that the entire cadre of political leadership from the baby boom generation is simply not up to the task of creating meaningful cultural change in the middle east. As is the generation Xers, and even my generation. I don't see any one who is really able and capable and even willing to spend the kind of blood, money and effort to affect meaningful change. Who's willing to give the entire fucking planet the finger for the methods that would be needed.

Were talking about a multi generation long project to remake another culture in our image, and the will for that simply did not exist.

 

[King Arts]

You know nothing of what American involvement in the middle east was like.

You know nothing of how directly and visibly people's lives changed when we booted Saddam from Iraq, when the Taliban was ousted from Afghanistan.

I lived in the Middle East in the 2000's. I saw some of the changes that were visible even from a moderate distance.

The worst thing that the American involvement with the middle east did, from the perspective of the people in those two countries, was end. That resulted in Iraq collapsing, and Afghanistan falling back into the hands of the Taliban. The second-worst thing that the US did, was not force its values on both nations harder, to end monstrous local cultural practices like Bacha-Bazi, and the sheer level of corruption that is considered 'normal.'

Americans were so restrained that almost every enemy just assumed we were weak, because we lacked the willingness to just slaughter them willy-nilly.

Was their collateral damage? Yes.

Were wrong calls made sometimes, that got entire groups of people killed who should not have been? Yes.

Was any of this remotely near as bad as what the people there were already doing to each other before we showed up, and started doing again afterwards?

No, not even close.


You know nothing of what happened in those places, except propaganda from anti-western and hardline isolationist sources, and your words spit on the blood sacrifice made by American soldiers who fought to protect the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, even if America ultimately gave up on the project.

I can respect arguments that we never should have gone there in the first place. I can respect arguments that we should have just bombed the Taliban and Al-Qaeda out of existence, then called job done and gone home.

Your claim here though? It's disgusting.

Hell no, because of American actions Christian societies and villages within Iraq are gone those are places that have existed for over 1000 years. Sadaam actually kept order within his nation, Assad kept order within his nation. Christian minorities were able to actually live a life, they may have been 2nd class but that is still life. Yet the second the Americans removed the "dictators" and put in democracy those Christians were either expelled or killed. The only thing you are right on is that in Afghanistan we should have executed any warlord who engaged in bacha bazi.

 

[ShieldWife]

Hell no, because of American actions Christian societies and villages within Iraq are gone those are places that have existed for over 1000 years. Sadaam actually kept order within his nation, Assad kept order within his nation. Christian minorities were able to actually live a life, they may have been 2nd class but that is still life. Yet the second the Americans removed the "dictators" and put in democracy those Christians were either expelled or killed. The only thing you are right on is that in Afghanistan we should have executed any warlord who engaged in bacha bazi.

The Taliban executed men who engaged in bacha bazi. It was the USA and our puppets we installed after the invasion that brought back the practice.

 

[LordsFire]

The Taliban executed men who engaged in bacha bazi. It was the USA and our puppets we installed after the invasion that brought back the practice.

And the Taliban made use of child brides. Both were terrible.

As I said, if we had forced our values harder, things would have been less bad.

 

[King Arts]

And the Taliban made use of child brides. Both were terrible.

As I said, if we had forced our values harder, things would have been less bad.

One can easily make the argument that homosexual rape is worse than straight rape. What kind of Christian are you? But that's not even the only argument you can make. It's not like the northern alliance only raped boys, while the Taliban only raped girls. No the Northern alliance raped both. The Northern alliance is at minimum worse because the Taliban would logically be responsible for half as much rape as the side you supported. Obviously all rape is bad, but if all things are equal the side with 1/2 the amount of rape is better than the side with twice as much. Why do you keep stanning for every action that America does? Like after 9/11 doing a punitive expedition and burning the Taliban or killing 10 Afghanis for every American that died is reasonable and understandable. But no you are advocating nation building the same Bush stupidity that weakened the right bringing democracy and secularism and freedom. No those ideas are failure that lead to the side that supports that losing domestic elections. Obama and Democrats got big political points by opposing the Republicans at the time, and the Republicans got nothing. Any interventionist in our ranks needs to be kicked out of power, they don't bring good fruits for us.

 

[Marduk]

One can easily make the argument that homosexual rape is worse than straight rape. What kind of Christian are you? But that's not even the only argument you can make. It's not like the northern alliance only raped boys, while the Taliban only raped girls. No the Northern alliance raped both. The Northern alliance is at minimum worse because the Taliban would logically be responsible for half as much rape as the side you supported. Obviously all rape is bad, but if all things are equal the side with 1/2 the amount of rape is better than the side with twice as much.

Number of potential rape targets is in no way necessarily proportional to the raw number of rapes.

Why do you keep stanning for every action that America does? Like after 9/11 doing a punitive expedition and burning the Taliban or killing 10 Afghanis for every American that died is reasonable and understandable. But no you are advocating nation building the same Bush stupidity that weakened the right bringing democracy and secularism and freedom. No those ideas are failure that lead to the side that supports that losing domestic elections. Obama and Democrats got big political points by opposing the Republicans at the time, and the Republicans got nothing. Any interventionist in our ranks needs to be kicked out of power, they don't bring good fruits for us.

Obviously "nation building" as done was pointless because it didn't achieve effect and the people behind it were not willing to do what it would take to achieve effects, hence it was a waste of money and an exercise in wishful thinking combined.
Any effective "nation building" there would be at minimum bordering on the definition of "cultural genocide" IMHO, obviously something hardly any western government would even consider, nevermind the media optics obsessed US establishment of current year. And as long as you don't do that, oh well, a good chunk of the population will meet the definition of violent savages and you can't change that, so good luck building a functional nation out of violent savages with their savage customs.
That's not even interventionism, that's interventionism while being hopelessly bad at it to a point where positive results are not possible.

 

[ShieldWife]

I’m against child brides in Afghanistan. Maybe they should adopt the American way of letting their pubescent kids have sex with each other instead of an adult spouse, and watch hardcore porn too, oh yeah and get castrated when someone decides that they are trans.

Maybe we shouldn’t be so willing to cast stones. In any event, the internal laws of Afghanistan were and are none of our business. The only concern we should have had with Afghanistan was finding those responsible for the 9/11 attacks and an invasion and 20 year occupation wasn’t particularly helpful in that regard nor proportionate.

In fact, the entire the thing was a fiasco. When the USA pulled out, it literally took less than a day for our collaborator puppet regime to collapse and be replaced by the Taliban again. After 20 years of occupation, it gets reversed in a day.

The idea that we would force Afghanis to adopt Western values (which isn’t even necessarily a good thing) would require such extreme brutality that it would turn the stomachs of even some of the murderous warhawks who rule the GAE.

 

[LordsFire]

Maybe we shouldn’t be so willing to cast stones. In any event, the internal laws of Afghanistan were and are none of our business. The only concern we should have had with Afghanistan was finding those responsible for the 9/11 attacks and an invasion and 20 year occupation wasn’t particularly helpful in that regard nor proportionate.

I can respect this view.

 

[Bassoe]

The only concern we should have had with Afghanistan was finding those responsible for the 9/11 attacks

Then we should’ve been invading Saudi Arabia.

 

[AmosTrask]

Pižda the Russians are doubling down in destabilizing Moldova. These FSB bastards need to die. They'll be on our border if the Russians take over. Pinché Puñeta Putin!

 

[Bacle]

 

[AmosTrask]

More escalation and intimidation from the Russian inflatable bear. This summary always breaks the tension for me.

 

[AmosTrask]

4 weeks of Putin's New Year offensive. An all out assault from Crimea in the south to Donetsk in the north. Stalingrad style fighting in the cities and human wave assaults in the open fields.

The result? 5 villages taken in exchange for 5000 casualties a week.


Meanwhile Musk being Musk. Is it legal for him to help, albeit indirectly, the Russians? I think that gremlin needs a CIA bullet through his Vatnik loving skull. I wonder how much the KGB offered him to sabotage Ukrainian army coms on the Frontline.

On the Ukrainian side. Ukrainian soldiers are in love with the new Leopards and Bradleys they've received. They're easy to use and the modern computers and modern sights. Plus an interior that is comfortable and designed to keep the crew as protected as possible. As opposed to Russian IFVs where a single dent or scratch on the doors will jam the, shut trapping the crew to burn to death. It's why you see Russians an Ukrainian troops ride on top of their APCs and IFVs and never inside.

 

[ShadowArxxy]

4 weeks of Putin's New Year offensive. An all out assault from Crimea in the south to Donetsk in the north. Stalingrad style fighting in the cities and human wave assaults in the open fields.

The result? 5 villages taken in exchange for 5000 casualties a week.


Meanwhile Musk being Musk. Is it legal for him to help, albeit indirectly, the Russians? I think that gremlin needs a CIA bullet through his Vatnik loving skull. I wonder how much the KGB offered him to sabotage Ukrainian army coms on the Frontline.

On the Ukrainian side. Ukrainian soldiers are in love with the new Leopards and Bradleys they've received. They're easy to use and the modern computers and modern sights. Plus an interior that is comfortable and designed to keep the crew as protected as possible. As opposed to Russian IFVs where a single dent or scratch on the doors will jam the, shut trapping the crew to burn to death. It's why you see Russians an Ukrainian troops ride on top of their APCs and IFVs and never inside.

It's worth pointing out that American troops in Vietnam and WWII consistently rode on top of their APCs as well. It's not necessarily a doors-jam thing; it's a logical move when mines are the bigger threat than direct-fire AT weapons.

(Note also that mine resistance is one of the biggest advantages of wheeled vs tracked armored vehicles.)

 

[AmosTrask]

It's worth pointing out that American troops in Vietnam and WWII consistently rode on top of their APCs as well. It's not necessarily a doors-jam thing; it's a logical move when mines are the bigger threat than direct-fire AT weapons.

(Note also that mine resistance is one of the biggest advantages of wheeled vs tracked armored vehicles.)

Unfortunately the doors jamming is a common flaw of the BMP and BMD. The finishing on the steel is so rough due to the Russian nonexistent quality control. Although the lack of mine resistance is a factor as well. The bare steel and wire seats in the troop compartment will give you a concussion if your driver hits a pothole at speed.

I love these bunker tours. Especially the Swiss and Finnish systems. Very well built and durable. Finland builds 800 new bunkers every year. 1 bunker for every new building built. Those one million nomadic reindeer herders in the north are SOL though.

 

[mrttao]

Meanwhile Musk being Musk. Is it legal for him to help, albeit indirectly, the Russians? I think that gremlin needs a CIA bullet through his Vatnik loving skull. I wonder how much the KGB offered him to sabotage Ukrainian army coms on the Frontline.

What did Elon Musk actually do?

 

[ShadowArxxy]

What did Elon Musk actually do?

He's restricting Ukrainian access to Starlink communications, claiming that this is necessary to prevent Ukraine from escalating the conflict into World War III.

 

[Bassoe]

IE, he doesn't want to make his satellites military targets and cause kessler syndrome. Reasonable, cutting humanity off from space would be objectively worse than Ukraine outright losing.