Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Zachowon]

This.

The only success stories America has with nation-building are Japan, (West) Germany, and South Korea, and West Germany was a joint-effort between America, the UK, and France.

All their other attempts, not including the utter clusterfucks in South and Central America (for various reasons)? Welp, let's see...

Iraq and Afghanistan are still shitholes no matter how many lives and dollars were thrown at them over the course of twenty plus years, and the latter is now back under the control of the Taliban (which quickly reversed almost everything the Americans tried to impose on Afghani culture, such as feminism and basic rights for women). Womp womp.

Libya and Syria are still being fought over by at least four different factions in each country, and no attempts at nation-building could be attempted because of other countries' interests (such as Russia) in both countries. Womp womp womp.

South Vietnam still fell, no matter how much America propped it up with funding, troops, and training. It's now just Vietnam, which is technically communist. Technically. Womp womp womp womp.

Now, if we look at things militarily? Yeah, not a good track record either -- ever since its founding, the US has outright lost, claimed what are basically pyrrhic victories at best, or came in late to the party while other nations did the initial heavy-lifting (such as in WW1 and WW2, though the Second World War couldn't have been won without American involvement) in various wars.

The only real victories America can claim are their initial War of Independence, the Mexican-American War, (jointly) the Second World War (and even then they only really became involved because Imperial Japan got desperate and thought picking a fight with a sleeping giant was a good idea), the Korean War (which was primarily American troops), and the Cold War (ideological, but honestly with how things are going now, it's looking to be more a pyrrhic victory than an outright victory even there).

Trying to invade and annex British Canada? The Red Coats, outnumbered, sent the American militia mauled and broken back to Washington DC.

The American Civil War? That was basically a complete self-own, as all the casualties, Confederate or Union, were American. You were killing your own people!

Cuba and the Philippines are their own messes/can of worms.

WW1? Came in too late to make any real difference, and the outcome of the War was pretty much set before the first official American troops arrived in Europe.

Vietnam was an outright failure.

Afghanistan and Iraq? Outright failures on par with Vietnam. Hell, Biden's retreat mirrored the Fall of Saigon, right down to Americans and other nationalities scrambling to get onto choppers.

So, yeah. Despite all the troops, the technology, the training, and the manpower? America has an awful track record. Most of their successes came from the early 19th to mid-20th centuries.

....desert storm. Desert shield.
Just cause.
Grenada.
Yugoslavia.
03 invasion.
Outside of 1812, and even then we beat the brits back in New Orleans.
Was a draw.
Outside of 1812, the military has basically been unstoppable in its escapades.
We beat back a combined VC and NVA offensive, the Tet Offensive..
In Iraq and A-stan we faced hard battles but we often and AFAIK won't near os not every battle.
So the military didn't lose.
The politics lost

 

[ATP]

This.

The only success stories America has with nation-building are Japan, (West) Germany, and South Korea, and West Germany was a joint-effort between America, the UK, and France.

All their other attempts, not including the utter clusterfucks in South and Central America (for various reasons)? Welp, let's see...

Iraq and Afghanistan are still shitholes no matter how many lives and dollars were thrown at them over the course of twenty plus years, and the latter is now back under the control of the Taliban (which quickly reversed almost everything the Americans tried to impose on Afghani culture, such as feminism and basic rights for women). Womp womp.

Libya and Syria are still being fought over by at least four different factions in each country, and no attempts at nation-building could be attempted because of other countries' interests (such as Russia) in both countries. Womp womp womp.

South Vietnam still fell, no matter how much America propped it up with funding, troops, and training. It's now just Vietnam, which is technically communist. Technically. Womp womp womp womp.

Now, if we look at things militarily? Yeah, not a good track record either -- ever since its founding, the US has outright lost, claimed what are basically pyrrhic victories at best, or came in late to the party while other nations did the initial heavy-lifting (such as in WW1 and WW2, though the Second World War couldn't have been won without American involvement) in various wars.

The only real victories America can claim are their initial War of Independence, the Mexican-American War, (jointly) the Second World War (and even then they only really became involved because Imperial Japan got desperate and thought picking a fight with a sleeping giant was a good idea), the Korean War (which was primarily American troops), and the Cold War (ideological, but honestly with how things are going now, it's looking to be more a pyrrhic victory than an outright victory even there).

Trying to invade and annex British Canada? The Red Coats, outnumbered, sent the American militia mauled and broken back to Washington DC.

The American Civil War? That was basically a complete self-own, as all the casualties, Confederate or Union, were American. You were killing your own people!

Cuba and the Philippines are their own messes/can of worms.

WW1? Came in too late to make any real difference, and the outcome of the War was pretty much set before the first official American troops arrived in Europe.

Vietnam was an outright failure.

Afghanistan and Iraq? Outright failures on par with Vietnam. Hell, Biden's retreat mirrored the Fall of Saigon, right down to Americans and other nationalities scrambling to get onto choppers.

So, yeah. Despite all the troops, the technology, the training, and the manpower? America has an awful track record. Most of their successes came from the early 19th to mid-20th centuries.

Becouse USA/with exception of Reagan/ never really fought soviets,only try to made deal with them.Remember chicken Bush in Kiev in 1990?
And,in muslim countries,they never tried to achieve anything except destroing local christian communities.

USA do not lost becouse they do not try win,but BECOUSE THEY DO NOT TRY WIN.

 

[Zyobot]

*posts selfie*
*receives an artillery shell instead of Likes*

Another reason why not to volunteer to fight alongside non-professionals, or worse, have no choice but to flee with strangers likely to make dumb mistakes.

If bombs and bullets don't get you, your idiotic comrade's social-media addiction probably will, alerting the enemy to your location and all that. Deaths in war are to be expected, but if you want a bug-fuck stupid way to go down that'd make the GIs who lost their lives at Normandy, Okinawa, or Ardennes facepalm in the afterlife, that's got to be it. 🤦‍♂️

 

[Jormungandr]

That goes into the problems of defining "victory". Iraq is a perfect example. USA didn't lose a single battle, in fact it curbstomped any enemy force on the battlefield. It proverbially lost the peace, and a lot of that, in Washington D.C.

Pyrrhic victories, basically. In such cases, you didn't really lose but you didn't win either.

....Desert Storm. Desert Shield.
Just cause.
Grenada.
Yugoslavia.
03 invasion.
Outside of 1812, and even then we beat the brits back in New Orleans.
Was a draw.
Outside of 1812, the military has basically been unstoppable in its escapades.
We beat back a combined VC and NVA offensive, the Tet Offensive..
In Iraq and A-stan we faced hard battles but we often and AFAIK won't near os not every battle.
So the military didn't lose.
The politics lost

Battles, not wars.

Desert Storm and Desert Shield were part of Iraq and Afghanistan. Ultimately, America failed there despite winning battles.

Saddam was still in power until he was taken out within the last two decades. He still ran Iraq for another tennish years.

Bin Laden was killed, finally, in 2012.

Iraq and Afghanistan are still shitholes. Strategic objectives achieved, the wars actually lost.

Good point about Grenada.

The mess in Europe was a UN thing, too. Many nations were involved, not just America.

'03 Invasion. Again, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Point is the initial Canadian annexation attempt failed, America's militia got pushed back onto its own soil before America could turn the tide. facepalm Failed. All America got for that was a lot of damage done on their own soil and a lot of dead Americans.

Yep, America beat back the Vietcong and North Vietnam... but ultimately still lost the Vietnam War. South Vietnam is as gone as chicken wings are at an all you can buffet the moment they're set out.

Politics being the cause or not, America has won plenty of battles, but you've lost most wars. America just hasn't got a good track record.

Another reason why not to volunteer to fight alongside strangers or non-professionals.

If bombs and bullets don't get you, your idiotic comrade's social-media addiction probably will, alerting the enemy to your location and all that. Deaths in war are to be expected, but if you want a butt-fuck stupid way to die that'd make the GIs who lost their lives at Normandy, Okinawa, or Ardennes facepalm in the afterlife, that's got to be it. 🤦‍♂️

Most of these soldiers are conscripts. Untrained, undisciplined, drunk, and just plain not wanting to be there. It's kinda pitying that their civilian behavior, such as taking selfies, is getting them and their friends/comrades killed.

 

[Zyobot]

Most of these soldiers are conscripts. Untrained, undisciplined, drunk, and just plain not wanting to be there. It's kinda pitying that their civilian behavior, such as taking selfies, is getting them and their friends/comrades killed.

Yeah, that's really too bad.

If I could, odds are I'd just plain refuse to fight alongside dumbasses who bring their cell phones and other easily trackable "distractions" with them into battle. Sadly, I doubt I'd have much of a choice if I were in these poor guys' shoes, which makes me thankful the US Military — at least, for now — remains a volunteer force where the bottom rung of possible candidates usually gets weeded out first.

 

[Marduk]

Pyrrhic victories, basically. In such cases, you didn't really lose but you didn't win either.

Pyrrhic victories imply crippling military losses, which were not the case there,.

 

[Jormungandr]

Pyrrhic victories imply crippling military losses, which were not the case there,.

Not always: you don't have to suffer significant casualties for a war to become a pyrrhic victory if the objective of said war, such as toppling a regime, completely fails, despite your winning every battle.

We've seen that time and time again in history.

 

[Marduk]

Not always: you don't have to suffer significant casualties for a war to become a pyrrhic victory if the objective of said war, such as toppling a regime, completely fails, despite your winning every battle.

We've seen that time and time again in history.

Frankly such resolution of wars was rarely heard of before modern global politics. Either you conquer the place you wanted to conquer, if you didn't then probably your army got its ass kicked.
If effectively nothing major has changed in the end, the most accurate term would be stalemate i think.
Some people further on the right have simple proposed doing Iraq and Afghanistan in a way defined as punitive expeditions, which in turn would end up being quite similar, much cheaper yet clearly victorious alternatives to what was done.

 

[Zachowon]

Pyrrhic victories, basically. In such cases, you didn't really lose but you didn't win either.

Battles, not wars.

Desert Storm and Desert Shield were part of Iraq and Afghanistan. Ultimately, America failed there despite winning battles.

Saddam was still in power until he was taken out within the last two decades. He still ran Iraq for another tennish years.

Bin Laden was killed, finally, in 2012.

Iraq and Afghanistan are still shitholes. Strategic objectives achieved, the wars actually lost.

Good point about Grenada.

The mess in Europe was a UN thing, too. Many nations were involved, not just America.

'03 Invasion. Again, Iraq and Afghanistan.

Point is the initial Canadian annexation attempt failed, America's militia got pushed back onto its own soil before America could turn the tide. facepalm Failed. All America got for that was a lot of damage done on their own soil and a lot of dead Americans.

Yep, America beat back the Vietcong and North Vietnam... but ultimately still lost the Vietnam War. South Vietnam is as gone as chicken wings are at an all you can buffet the moment they're set out.

Politics being the cause or not, America has won plenty of battles, but you've lost most wars. America just hasn't got a good track record.

Most of these soldiers are conscripts. Untrained, undisciplined, drunk, and just plain not wanting to be there. It's kinda pitying that their civilian behavior, such as taking selfies, is getting them and their friends/comrades killed.

We won in every sense but the constantly shifting political goal.
And Iraq war was won and over in 2011....

 

[Morphic Tide]

The best-fit term for the US's track record is "White Peace", where both sides pack their bags, go home, and go back to business as usual as near as they can.

 

[Bacle]

Eh, with Russia, it's a lot simpler than most places to get through to them, if you are willing to deal on the level they operate on.

Speak to them in a language the Russians understand.

Make it so that any new Russian leader makes peace and withdraws from the lands Russia illegally occupies, or falls out a window/eats a drone during the shuffle after Putin's dies.

 

[Bassoe]

You are forgetting South Korea, Taiwan, Israel, from top of my head.

No I'm not, I just don't consider them 'wins' by any realistic definition of the term. South Korea spent the past few decades led by a literal cult and still hasn't had proper trials and loyalty purges after this was discovered. Economic competition with Taiwan destroyed our domestic microchip manufacturing infrastructure and is poised to drag us into WW3 when China tries to reconquer it and we have to defend it or lose our microchips. Supporting Israel started a blood feud with every single Muslim country, as the saying goes, Israel may be our only ally in the Middle East but until we established it, we didn't have any enemies there.

 

[Zachowon]

No I'm not, I just don't consider them 'wins' by any realistic definition of the term. South Korea spent the past few decades led by a literal cult and still hasn't had proper trials and loyalty purges after this was discovered. Economic competition with Taiwan destroyed our domestic microchip manufacturing infrastructure and is poised to drag us into WW3 when China tries to reconquer it and we have to defend it or lose our microchips. Supporting Israel started a blood feud with every single Muslim country, as the saying goes, Israel may be our only ally in the Middle East but until we established it, we didn't have any enemies there.

...so South Korea being one of the biggest weapons producers in Asia and soon to he the world.
Has one if if not the biggest tech company in the world, not one but two of them, and has a steady democracy and hasn't fallen to communism

 

[Marduk]

No I'm not, I just don't consider them 'wins' by any realistic definition of the term. South Korea spent the past few decades led by a literal cult and still hasn't had proper trials and loyalty purges after this was discovered.

What kind of insanely perfectionist standards for "success" are you making up here that USA itself would never pass?

Economic competition with Taiwan destroyed our domestic microchip manufacturing infrastructure and is poised to drag us into WW3 when China tries to reconquer it and we have to defend it or lose our microchips. Supporting Israel started a blood feud with every single Muslim country, as the saying goes, Israel may be our only ally in the Middle East but until we established it, we didn't have any enemies there.

Again, yeah, sure, make up impossible standards and be "surprised" everyone failed them.
Go on, tell us about the history of microchip industry, and the natural peaceful and sympathetic nature of the Islamic world, let's have a laugh.

 

[Tiamat]

No I'm not, I just don't consider them 'wins' by any realistic definition of the term. South Korea spent the past few decades led by a literal cult and still hasn't had proper trials and loyalty purges after this was discovered. Economic competition with Taiwan destroyed our domestic microchip manufacturing infrastructure and is poised to drag us into WW3 when China tries to reconquer it and we have to defend it or lose our microchips. Supporting Israel started a blood feud with every single Muslim country, as the saying goes, Israel may be our only ally in the Middle East but until we established it, we didn't have any enemies there.

Wow...just wow.

I'm trying to see your POV here but I echo @Marduk , what ridiculous impossible standards of perfection and goalposts are you setting here that probably not one damn country on the planet could pass, especially considering hindsight is always 20/20?

South Korea needs to have MORE trials and purges? What the actual FUCK? Yeah, I am half Korean so this shit is hitting a bit close to home for me.

By all means, lets have the US stick it's head back in the sand...oh wait, it's done that before.

 

[King Arts]

Battles, not wars.

Desert Storm and Desert Shield were part of Iraq and Afghanistan. Ultimately, America failed there despite winning battles.

Desert storm was a victory. The gulf war in the 90's was a seperate war from the Iraq invasion. Iraq did not conquer Kuwait Iraq lost that war, America achieved victory because Kuwait still existed after the war.

 

[Jormungandr]

Desert storm was a victory. The gulf war in the 90's was a separate war from the Iraq invasion. Iraq did not conquer Kuwait Iraq lost that war, America achieved victory because Kuwait still existed after the war.

I've always seen the Second Gulf War as basically being a continuation of the First because, frankly, it was "unfinished business": Saddam was still in power, and he was still doing nasty shit to his own people. Kuwait was saved though, as you said.

Then again, I suppose it'd be more like the First and Second Punic Wars (the aftermath of the First leading directly into the Second) than a direct continuation. shrug

 

[King Arts]

I've always seen the Second Gulf War as basically being a continuation of the First because, frankly, it was "unfinished business": Saddam was still in power, and he was still doing nasty shit to his own people. Kuwait was saved though, as you said.

Then again, I suppose it'd be more like the First and Second Punic Wars (the aftermath of the First leading directly into the Second) than a direct continuation. shrug

That's a silly take, just because previous wars like WW1 lead to WW2 don't mean they are the same. Iraq invasion was done because Bush Jr. was a pathetic loser who had to copy daddy.

 

[Cherico]

Desert storm was a victory. The gulf war in the 90's was a seperate war from the Iraq invasion. Iraq did not conquer Kuwait Iraq lost that war, America achieved victory because Kuwait still existed after the war.

Desert storm most likely could have been prevented with basic diplomacy.

 

[ATP]

Not possible, even Biden knows that Russia will always choose relations with China over the West (if nothing else, due to China being more tolerant of their way of governance, doing business, and the sheer terror of what China could do to Russia), while in current situation, Russia's support against China is not even worth much to begin with.

Optymist.He is Democrat,and Democrats ALWAYS must gave at least part of Europe to Moscov for nothing.
It is part of their black damned souls.