No one cares about gays that can't be used as a weapon against western civilization.
Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion
- Thread starter Zachowon
- Start date
- Status
That's an ideological assumption to make. Where did it backfire in South Korea or West Germany?
Also if you haven't noticed, Russia has just supplanted Iran as the most sanctioned country in the world and is Iran's new BFF, so it's a rather ironic comparison to make.
"Oh no, Russia may become worse, even as bad as... it's about right now!".
What you are right about is that the West cannot afford to prop up a Russian government of own choosing, even if it could get one in to begin with, which is doubtful.
If anything a pro-western Russian government would be expected to not only prop itself up, but also help prop up the West with energy exports.
The best realistic option would be a not particularly strong, pragmatic government focused on economy and domestic popularity, willing to refrain from trying to play superpower games in pursuit of that.
Last edited:
See, this is just 'anytime US does anything, it turns out bad' taken to an extreme.
And let me ask, would you prefer the West go completely hands off when Russia ends up in a civil war when Putin dies and/or they are completely driven out of Ukraine, instead of trying to make sure this time we actually help those in Russia who can keep those worse than Putin from taking over?
In one scenario we have some amount of control or influence over who rules Russia after Putin is gone, in the other we have no control or influence to keep someone worse than Putin from taking the reins.
We are already involved in this fight with Russia, and preparing for when Putin's gone is just a logical continuation of that fight.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
In North Korean and East Germany.
I think everyone will be fine with "backfiring" like this, and it certainly beats the whole place being conquered by commies.
If the whole mess resulted in half of Russia becoming an exemplary western ally and the other half an anti-western totalitarian shithole, i think that would be considered a stellar success of western diplomacy, because as of now the whole thing is the latter.
How are the Nork's our fault?
East Germany isn't even really our fault, given we would had WW3 to get it back before the Wall fell.
Yeah north Korea is china's dog not ours.
Blasterbot
Well-known member
the ones I would have brought up are Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Afganistan, Libya, Syria, those south american junta's we funded by letting their drugs into the inner cities, and of course that time we let Woodrow Wilson negotiate the treaty of Versailles. I will accept saying Wilson doesn't count he was a special kind of awful.
Bassoe
Well-known member
Yes, I have. Literally the only times it unambiguously worked I can think of remain post-WW2 Europe and Japan. Which only worked because they knew if they didn't do whatever we said, we could simply retreat and let the Soviet Union take over the rob of 'reconstructing' them. By taking over them.
Blasterbot
Well-known member
I wouldn't go with the US involving itself in a situation axiomatically makes things bad. I will say that we have fucked up a lot of nations badly in the past and many are unwilling to examine why and learn from it.
Terthna
Professional Lurker
Let answer that question, with another question then; do you expect Biden/his handlers to be able to somehow not make things worse? Because they're the ones who are going to be making the decisions when this is all going down; not you.
Then maybe you should move to North Korea; see what it's actually like to live there. Besides; if anyone's in danger of being conquered by commies, it's us; not Russia. After all, they've taken over pretty much every institution here; in politics, business, the media, academia, et cetera, et cetera.
They're not, not entirely at least; but Marduk is the one who brought them up, not me. I was more commenting on the negative results of the change in regime in those countries.
Don't dodge and try to play these games.
I do not trust DC, but I also know that DC can be held accountable to it's voters and citizens thanks to people like Musk and Project Veritas.
We don't have that option with Russia and the invasion of Ukraine.
No, you brought it up while trying a cute little gotcha trick on Marduk, and then want to play it like he made them an issue.
Are you trying to imply that if USA did not intervene in Korea, commies would have lost the whole place? WTF are you smoking? Who would stop their and Chinese divisions? Fucking imaginary ghost knights of isolationism?
You are forgetting South Korea, Taiwan, Israel, from top of my head.
The south American juntas were far more gentle and kind then a communist state would have been as we saw in Venezuela. You crunch those numbers and we saved millions of lives.
Indeed.Sad thing is - germans and France want alliance with kgbstan again,and Biden would be happy to throw Uikraine and probably Poland to them as long as they support USA against China.
So - Long live comrade colonel.When he die,USA would support other kgb colonel for help against China.
Paing for such support with us.
Not possible, even Biden knows that Russia will always choose relations with China over the West (if nothing else, due to China being more tolerant of their way of governance, doing business, and the sheer terror of what China could do to Russia), while in current situation, Russia's support against China is not even worth much to begin with.
This.
The only success stories America has with nation-building are Japan, (West) Germany, and South Korea, and West Germany was a joint-effort between America, the UK, and France.
All their other attempts, not including the utter clusterfucks in South and Central America (for various reasons)? Welp, let's see...
Iraq and Afghanistan are still shitholes no matter how many lives and dollars were thrown at them over the course of twenty plus years, and the latter is now back under the control of the Taliban (which quickly reversed almost everything the Americans tried to impose on Afghani culture, such as feminism and basic rights for women). Womp womp.
Libya and Syria are still being fought over by at least four different factions in each country, and no attempts at nation-building could be attempted because of other countries' interests (such as Russia) in both countries. Womp womp womp.
South Vietnam still fell, no matter how much America propped it up with funding, troops, and training. It's now just Vietnam, which is technically communist. Technically. Womp womp womp womp.
Now, if we look at things militarily? Yeah, not a good track record either -- ever since its founding, the US has outright lost, claimed what are basically pyrrhic victories at best, or came in late to the party while other nations did the initial heavy-lifting (such as in WW1 and WW2, though the Second World War couldn't have been won without American involvement) in various wars.
The only real victories America can claim are their initial War of Independence, the Mexican-American War, (jointly) the Second World War (and even then they only really became involved because Imperial Japan got desperate and thought picking a fight with a sleeping giant was a good idea), the Korean War (which was primarily American troops), and the Cold War (ideological, but honestly with how things are going now, it's looking to be more a pyrrhic victory than an outright victory even there).
Trying to invade and annex British Canada? The Red Coats, outnumbered, sent the American militia mauled and broken back to Washington DC.
The American Civil War? That was basically a complete self-own, as all the casualties, Confederate or Union, were American. You were killing your own people!
Cuba and the Philippines are their own messes/can of worms.
WW1? Came in too late to make any real difference, and the outcome of the War was pretty much set before the first official American troops arrived in Europe.
Vietnam was an outright failure.
Afghanistan and Iraq? Outright failures on par with Vietnam. Hell, Biden's retreat mirrored the Fall of Saigon, right down to Americans and other nationalities scrambling to get onto choppers.
So, yeah. Despite all the troops, the technology, the training, and the manpower? America has an awful track record. Most of their successes came from the early 19th to mid-20th centuries.
That goes into the problems of defining "victory". Iraq is a perfect example. USA didn't lose a single battle, in fact it curbstomped any enemy force on the battlefield. It proverbially lost the peace, and a lot of that, in Washington D.C.
- Status