LordsFire
Internet Wizard
This question includes in it an assertion, that things would not have significantly changed.
Can you in any way support this assertion?
Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion
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This question includes in it an assertion, that things would not have significantly changed.
Can you in any way support this assertion?
PsihoKekec
Swashbuckling Accountant
Ukraine of course. Which shows how bad it can get if State Department takes control of your nation.
First - not russian sphere,soviets killed Russia.kgbstam mafia sphere - and that is problem.
He is using logic.In Putin state you could be blown up any moment,if he decide that he need pretext to another war,just like in 1999.People must live in corrupted state without hope for things being better.
Ukraine improved that - people no longer need to pay bribes for everything like in kgbstan sphere,and could ,at least partially,live normal lives.
You said about emotions - but,you are thinking emotionally here.You want so much belive in Russia,that you pretend that that state still exist and argue as if Ukraine fought with Russia.
They are fighting kgb mafia,and that is why they are winning.Real Russia would conqered them long ago.And,if we have real Russia with normal tsar,some Alexander,not Nikolaj,then i would agree with you - Ukraine should surrender to them.
Sadly - that Russia was murdered 100 years ago.
You are emotionally longing for long dead corpse.
P.S about Holodomor - putin is praising sralin who did it.And his soldiers are waving red soviet banners,the same which were used by genociders.
From rational point of viev it means "we want made another genocide on Ukraine"
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Uh what?
Was Ukraine gunning down protestors Ala Kazakhstan?
Are they inept as Belarus?
Yes its worse because of the Russian Special Military Operation! And Russia was compelled to do this because US State Department forced them to.
Obviously we told Putin that Ukraine will be in NATO by years end if they don't invade
You forget one old soviet argument - we do not genocided X,and even if we do so,you are beating negroes.
ShadowsOfParadox
Well-known member
Dude, Putin was literally a reasonably high up figure in said government. Putin runs his country only somewhat differently on the ground and has the same type of control mechanisms at the high end.
The difference between the USSR and modern Russia is indeed great, but it's not nearly so great as to give the Ukrainians any level of confidence that they wouldn't do something similar.
PsihoKekec
Swashbuckling Accountant
Between 2014 and 2022 they killed lot more civilians than Kazakhstan did, through indiscriminate bombardment of urban areas, you know, activity that everyone is fine with as long as it is their side doing it.
And Ukraine is more inept than Belarus, exemplified by the fact, that despite being the most developed part of the USSR, they had lower GDP per capita than Belarus ever since both countries became independent.
And at the same time Russia launched arty on Ukraine from inside it's own borders to support the Donbas, and Ukraine was forced to refrain from hitting them because they were on Russian soil.
Ukraine had legit reasons to be striking targets inside Russia itself for years now, and held back till Russia moved troops in to invade.
Ukrainian's used arty against the Donbas rebels because said units had their own armor and military equipment, plus the 'little green men' of Putin's bringing their own stuff, is not some sort of war crime. Also, from what I remember seeing, most of the 'indiscriminate' attacks in the Donbas were later found to be Russian arty hitting Kyiv supporting civies, or their own rebels, and blaming it on Kyiv.
The Minsk agreement was supposed to end the fighting, but in reality all it did was tie Kyiv's hand's while Russia did whatever it wanted on it's own soil, where they had guns and such with the range to strike into Ukraine on the rebel's behalf, while the rebel's themselves barely even attempted to adhere to the Minsk Accords and were always aiming to go independent or 'join' Russia.
Also, Ukraine's economic woes were set to be solved by the oil deposits found in 2012, and even had Exxon and Chevron contracts/equipment set to go. Then 2014 comes around, and suddenly Putin and Washington both find reasons to stir unrest in Ukraine, for different reasons. Putin wants the oil/strategic defensive positions at the edges of the Carpatians, and that's part of why he annexed Crimea (to claim it's EEZ, not just the naval base), while Washington didn't like that Yanocovych(?) decided at the last minute to back out of the EU deal and try to remain 'neutral'.
As I've said before, this mess is one where no one's hands are clean, including Ukraine's gov. The only reason the conflict came onto western public news feeds is because of MH17's shootdown and the shitshow around it; the Maidan didn't make as much news with western normies as the shoot down did. I remember seeing the hastily deleted rebel posts bragging about downing a transport, as I happened to be surfing Twitter and SB both that day.
Trump told Putin he'd nuke Moscow's 'onion domes' if Putin made a move on Kyiv, and Putin seemed to have actually believed he would (likely because of Trump's actions with regard to N. Korea), while Biden/Pelosi (who's really calling the shots) impeached Trump because he dared to want Zelenski to actually look at the shit with Burisma and Biden's son (Pelosi's kid is also peripherally involved here, which is the real reason Pelosi pushed the Impeachment). Neither Biden or Pelosi were willing to nuke Moscow if Putin moved on Kyiv, but both were willing to open the coffers and crank up the mil-ind complex to supply Ukraine and our other allies, while getting a rallying event to attempt to boost Biden's shit polls.
I have no idea what the best outcome for this conflict is, but I'm not going to pretend that any side is 'clean' or that the West's motives are 'pure' here, even if Russia's are worse and the least justified of the bunch. Ukraine at least has a far more justified position because of how Russia has breached their sovereignty and Putin dismisses their existence as a nation-state.
Edit: Also, this happened.
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Poland was ready for this and had already suspended all trade with Russia. They wernt importing gas last I checked @Marduk
Bear Ribs
Well-known member
So... this feels like a major escalation.
www.thesun.co.uk
nypost.com
Russia threatens to strike targets in Britain over UK weapons in Ukraine
RUSSIA has threatened to strike military targets in the UK after Britain supplied weapons to Ukraine. Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova said the hits could be authorised against…
www.thesun.co.uk
Russian state TV threatens to wipe out ‘boorish’ UK with ballistic missile
Russian state TV host Vladimir Solovyov threatened the annihilation of the United Kingdom on Wednesday with the Sarmat, Russia’s newest ballistic missile.
nypost.com
So... this feels like a major escalation.
Russia threatens to strike targets in Britain over UK weapons in Ukraine
RUSSIA has threatened to strike military targets in the UK after Britain supplied weapons to Ukraine. Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova said the hits could be authorised against…Russian state TV threatens to wipe out ‘boorish’ UK with ballistic missile
Russian state TV host Vladimir Solovyov threatened the annihilation of the United Kingdom on Wednesday with the Sarmat, Russia’s newest ballistic missile.
Escalating from Polonium and Novichok poisoning to just sending a Ballistic Missile now to strike at Britain.
So... this feels like a major escalation.
Russia threatens to strike targets in Britain over UK weapons in Ukraine
RUSSIA has threatened to strike military targets in the UK after Britain supplied weapons to Ukraine. Russian foreign ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova said the hits could be authorised against…Russian state TV threatens to wipe out ‘boorish’ UK with ballistic missile
Russian state TV host Vladimir Solovyov threatened the annihilation of the United Kingdom on Wednesday with the Sarmat, Russia’s newest ballistic missile.
Britian has nukes too, as does france, as does the united states.
Then you get to the fact that maintaining nukes is expensive and russia is poor and has obviously been skimping on a lot of shit while the us and others have worked on anti missle weapons. So they would have a lot of duds and a lot of things that get smacked out of the sky. DC and major cities would be destroyed it would suck but if they go nuclear then russia stops existing and they know it.
sillygoose
Well-known member
Not as poor as people think. PPP adjusted GDP puts them nearly on par with Germany. Russia is effectively a more population, but less social services oriented Germany in terms of raw numbers, but with more basic industry and resources as well as a larger military. No way of course Russia still has Soviet level numbers of nukes (over 4,000), despite their claims, though even 1000 is probably reasonable in terms of what they could maintain and would be more than enough to do the job in the event of a war.
Russia is probably fishing for some effect, at least in form of internal political strife, in western countries that have some media and political critters show themselves to be cowardly enough to take it seriously. In reality, USA didn't strike Soviets over vastly more significant weapon shipments to Vietnam and North Korea during their wars.
If they do want to escalate to cruise missile exchanges...
If i was British PM i'd reply with a list of Royal Navy ships armed with Tomahawks, there's quite a few. If Russia wants to start a cruise missile exchange with NATO, especially at this time, its would not be a wise decision for them, to say it lightly.
Aldarion
Neoreactionary Monarchist
Not just cowardly enough. There are many in the West who seriously and openly support Russia, for various reasons. These almost certainly will use Russian threat as an excuse to step up their efforts.
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