Fallout The Eagle And The Bear [Fallout AU]

North America February 2332

Navarro

Well-known member
Map of North America, Feb. 2332, w/ a new colour scheme that lets me properly show areas of military occupation, reservations, radiation zones, etc. The dotted line showing American claims stops at the NCR border because it would have been hell to do the northern coast, esp. British Columbia and the panhandle. And yes, a chunk of Africa and western Europe should be on the right edge:

bRZh683.png
 

The Whispering Monk

Well-known member
Osaul
I understand the strategic want here, but I'm just not sure the NCR wouldn't have gotten more bang for their buck if they got the subs involved in gutting the Enclave carriers.

Proof will be in the pudding.
 

SuperHeavy

Well-known member
Surprised no one's commented on the sea battle. Did anyone see the sinking of the Richardson coming?
I was a little surprised the US admiral did not try to keep the range open far enough that his railguns could hit the enemy while the NCR conventional weapons couldn't hit him. Overall the losses on the Enclave side seemed pretty steep for next generation ships but that can be explained by NCR superior attack planes and both sides not really knowing what they are doing.
 

f1onagher

Well-known member
Surprised no one's commented on the sea battle. Did anyone see the sinking of the Richardson coming?
Just finished reading it. The sea battle ended up being closer than expected and while I'd forgotten about the Richardson it makes sense that the oldest, weakest, and most vulnerable carrier would go down it the heat of a proper fight. The NCR battleships performed well, but the geographic realities of naval fighting from opposite ends of the continent meant that the NCR was never going to be able to follow a true strike home. Its probably for the best that they mauled a US fleet and got their commerce raiders into the Atlantic before bugging out. No need to let the Californian fleet get attritioned in the Gulf.

This was a humiliating draw for the US and there's going to be a few heads rolling for the lack of proper strike craft in the fleet. The NCR subs are also going to be one of the bigger contributions their navy adds to the war since they can constrict reinforcements from Europe and will draw valuable fleet assets away from the war for convoy duty. In the end I say the NCR got the better end of that brawl, if only just.

I was a little surprised the US admiral did not try to keep the range open far enough that his railguns could hit the enemy while the NCR conventional weapons couldn't hit him. Overall the losses on the Enclave side seemed pretty steep for next generation ships but that can be explained by NCR superior attack planes and both sides not really knowing what they are doing.
Text points out that the US attack craft were all obsolete Vertibirds thanks to US internal budget fights. Staying at range would have given the Californians the aerial advantage while closing in lets the fleets engage on all fronts. It was a rare case where the NCR had a definitive qualitative edge and it forced the US to use sub-par tactics.

That and like you said, everyone is relearning how to do this.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Text points out that the US attack craft were all obsolete Vertibirds thanks to US internal budget fights.

Yep. The USAF stubbornly kept control over naval aviation largely for prestige purposes while neglecting it due to all their shiny new toys (multirole stealth fighters! stealth strategic bombers! stealth gunships/tactical bombers!) and it screwed the USN.

Staying at range would have given the Californians the aerial advantage while closing in lets the fleets engage on all fronts. It was a rare case where the NCR had a definitive qualitative edge and it forced the US to use sub-par tactics.

Not only is the vertibird (or VH-01) a sub-par naval attack plane, the Condor is more maneuverable than the Aurora and hence better at avoiding being target-locked and lasered to death on approach.

That and like you said, everyone is relearning how to do this.

Yep. The USN's only "real" experiences thus far have been glorified live fire exercises.
 
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High Lord Rokland

Active member
I really like that the E-USA is not use to fighting peer powers and it really shows.
The NCR got it's kick in the pants by the Legion and E-USA air raids, but lacks the sheer tech and political reach.
It adds to the story and keeps it interesting.

Also I really felt bad for the Rio soldiers, they held out and fought hard, only to annex by a different power. Better then being forced under the Mexican Empire, but still stings.
 

SuperHeavy

Well-known member
Text points out that the US attack craft were all obsolete Vertibirds thanks to US internal budget fights. Staying at range would have given the Californians the aerial advantage while closing in lets the fleets engage on all fronts.
I was not saying they stay out of gun range, instead they can use the fact that railguns have one serious advantage over past naval gunnery, projectile velocity. Because of that not only can our guns fire further but they are more accurate. That means that a canny admiral can keep the US fleet far enough from the NCR so the guns and missiles are in range, but the NCR will not be able to return shell fire.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
BTW, for the NCR bombers, basically this:

1280px-XH558_%28G-VLCN%29_Avro_Vulcan_-_Last_Flight_over_Farnborough_%28cropped%29.jpg


With the cockpit shifted back to the top of the wing, no nose, and no big vertical stabiliser.
 

Crow gotta eat

That peckish, patriotic, Protestant passerine.
The major industrial centres of the Enclave were too heavily guarded by laser air defence to be viable targets, but Banks wasn’t interested in them specifically. He was after the smaller industrial areas, the slave-cities that fed the big slave-metropoli. A factory whose supply chain was crippled was as good as a factory destroyed. He had a team already busy at work selecting targets across the south-east, north-east and mid-west of the American continent. When the time was right – that is, once the factories pumping out bombers and the new long-range Condor Mk. 2s that would escort them were sufficiently up to speed, which should be in a few months – he’d begin the air campaign in earnest. With the range of these craft and their new escorts, he’d have no need for Brotherhood support in deploying them – which was another benefit given the decisions that’d been made at the top.
Going to be an interesting strategy to see played out.
Admiral James Howland got off from the Navy vertibird onto the landing pad of USS Columbia, giving the lights of Havana across the bay to the south a long look. The Cuban people were a decent sort, who’d suffered under bad governance – the Spaniards, a spree of looting despots, the Communists, the pirate warlords of the post-war era – for far too long before the USA finally bit the bullet and put them under its own administration. It had taken decades, but the investment the USA had put into restoring and improving Cuba had paid off. She was an exporter of sugar, chocolate, fish, fruit, pharmaceuticals, alcohol and cigars, among various other goods, all of which made her prosperous. The state had especially close ties with Florida, which had almost caused it to join the Gulf Coast Commonwealth.

The island state was regularly promoted in Southern Europe – along with her sister Hispaniola – as a land of opportunity, and that was still quite true even if there had been a slight downturn in recent years.
Good overview of the US's view of Cuba's history (or at least one mainlander US citizen's view of it that probably isn't uncommon). As well as a nice little extra bit about how the US is advertising itself to possible immigrants in Southern Europe.
But though Cuba now considered itself part of the USA after decades of integration work, a wave of immigrants from Europe, and multiple generations who had known nothing but being part of the United States, some things had not much changed. The nightlife and gambling was still a major attraction, the populace still went more to Catholic services than UAC ones, and for every sign in English there was another in Spanish.
Interesting bit of cultural insight.
She had fought in the Pacific Theatre of the Sino-American War, then sheltered thousands of civilians for centuries while beached, serving as a refuge from the brutality and primitiveness of the wasteland. She had been the keystone of the reclamation of Boston, fought against the French invasion of southern England that same year. For almost five decades she had a symbol of America’s military strength, engineering prowess, desire to restore what was lost two hundred years ago. And now her storied career of more than two and a half centuries was over just like that. She started to slip down uncontrollably, each wave licking higher and higher at her hull. Pilots took off for the air base near Havana; deck crew hurried into surviving vertibirds or descended in lifeboats; those within the ship ran to emergency teleport rooms which took them to the naval hospital in Miami. Those too far away to reach the teleport chambers in time had no real option but to put on life jackets and rebreather masks, make their way to the opening hangars, and hope for the best.

But even in her death throes the old, wounded lion could still lash out – Gutierrez watched in horror as two of his fellow pilots leapt into the air to chase a retreating vertibird and were taken out by the laser defences.
As someone who loves history, that very well simulated a hurt about hearing a piece of history being destroyed. At least as it was dying it took out two more NCR aircraft and saved a retreating vertibird, and probably discouraged other NCR aircraft from attempting to do so while still in range of it.
Admiral Fletcher looked at the reports. A battleship lost, seven cruisers sunk, one all but disabled, ten destroyers taken out and two of his carriers sunk or disabled. It was dismal. Worst was that he could not receive reinforcements or repair his damaged ships – the NCR naval campaign in the Caribbean had already de facto ended. But it had achieved at least some of its goals. The enemy’s fleet in the Caribbean was bloodied, and the loss of such a large carrier had a strategic impact in its own right quite apart from the propaganda value. The TV stations would be showing clips from the sinking of the Enclave carrier Richardson for months on end.

But more importantly, the engagement had allowed three of the NCR’s attack sub squadrons to get past the West Indies into the Atlantic while the Enclave fleet was engaged with the surface ships. Hopefully they’d be able to disrupt sea traffic round the East Coast, mid-Atlantic and Demerara Plain enough to prevent the Enclave’s auxiliaries and industrial raw materials from arriving in sufficient numbers to help them win.
A good propaganda victory of the NCR at least and it did accomplish some strategic objectives, if not an actual decisive victory, like how the Battle of Jutland is still argued about of who actually won if anybody really did.

Hopefully they don't manage to take out Germany's Crown Prince, as I would actually like to get to see this character as an important military/political figure fighting in the E-USA's war who isn't actually an American, though I suppose other characters would simply take that narrative place.
“That was your price for helping us?! I should have guessed there would be one … a sad thing, but this world was never a charity. Still, better to be governed from Washington than ruled by the Iturbide maricons and their lackeys.”

“You’ll govern yourselves from Reynosa,” Pierce said. “Sharing your full sovereignty with whatever Commonwealth you end up in and the Federal Government.”

“But still … I love Rio. It feels shameful that she should … the californios and the Iturbides say you want to conquer the world. Or kill everybody on it, the californios say that sometimes.”
Oof. Can definitely understand where that feeling is coming from. Giving up your country's independence, even to one that would respect your local values and culture and leave you govern yourself, definitely would leave a sour taste in any normal patriot's mouth.

A bit different than the LSR's annexation, as that at least had a sort of informal referendum in the form their presidential election resulted in a pro-reintegration candidate winning. The Rio Grande instead just had their leaders give up their country to another country so a worse country wouldn't be the ones to conquer and rule them.
The mayor asked if the United States would restore the benefits the Cherokee Tribe had been entitled to; Peterson was confused a moment until he clarified that the United States no longer recognised Native American tribes or reservations as distinct political units, that using the word 'tribe' to describe themselves had very negative connotations, and that he was not in a position of authority to make any kind of negotiation at any rate.
Nice to see that some Pre-War tribes weren't completely scattered to the wind. Though it is also probably good they don't try and remake the old political system surrounding the tribes, as it would probably just be more trouble than what it is worth. They can still probably just encourage them to keep to their heritage as much as possible while still fitting into the US system, like they probably did in the LSR.

Edit: Made a few edits to my comments as a few rambled a bit or started losing focus.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Going to be an interesting strategy to see played out.

Sure will be!

Good overview of the US's view of Cuba's history (or at least one mainlander US citizen's view of it that probably isn't uncommon). As well as a nice little extra bit about how the US is advertising itself to possible immigrants in Southern Europe.

To Europe in general. And it's not wrong given how technology fell back in Europe after the cumulative effects of the oil crisis, the Syria-style slow unfolding collapse of the EC, and the famine caused by the end of food trade from America killed too many people to establish a 21st-century society. The factories that made the energy cells for the vehicles and such broke down and they fell back to "19th century with assault rifles". Now they're at "belle époque with combat armour and laser rifles".

Interesting bit of cultural insight.

I mean, Cuban culture is more an "Americanised" version of itself; same goes for Canadian and Nordic-Atlantic cultures. But E-US knows trying to stamp everything out would only cause them to be resented. And of course they do genuinely believe in their ideals and see themselves as helping these places by annexing them and plugging them directly into their system - and to a great extent they're not wrong!



A good propaganda victory of the NCR at least and it did accomplish some strategic objectives, if not an actual decisive victory, like how the Battle of Jutland is still argued about of who actually won if anybody really did.

Jutland was the inspiration, in fact.

Hopefully they don't manage to take out Germany's Crown Prince, as I would actually like to get to see this character as an important military/political figure fighting in the E-USA's war who isn't actually an American, though I suppose other characters would simply take that narrative place.

The German crown prince will show up in the next chapter, which also has a bit more European stuff in general.

Oof. Can definitely understand where that feeling is coming from. Giving up your country's independence, even to one that would respect your local values and culture and leave you govern yourself, definitely would leave a sour taste in any normal patriot's mouth.

There'll be some folks who have more than a sour taste.

A bit different than the LSR's annexation, as that at least had a sort of informal referendum in the form their presidential election resulted in a pro-reintegration candidate winning. The Rio Grande instead just had their leaders give up their country to another country so a worse country wouldn't be the ones to conquer and rule them.

Rio plot-thread will be tied off by mid-2332. Ch. 30 is some lovey-dovey and civilian life stuff w/ pretty much no action or politics to serve as a breather.

Nice to see that some Pre-War tribes weren't completely scattered to the wind. Though it is also probably good they don't try and remake the old political system surrounding the tribes, as it would probably just be more trouble than what it is worth. They can still probably just encourage them to keep to their heritage as much as possible while still fitting into the US system, like they probably did in the LSR.

I mean, in Fallout's post-apoc context "tribal" means "living like savages" as opposed to "at-least semi-civilised" who are wastelanders and such. So, yep, the vast majority of the native American groups in the post-apoc would be deemed "regular wastelanders; get them to respect our authoritah, pay taxes, obey our laws and join the military" by E-US (so would the Boomers and New Canaanites from FNV)
 
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ForeverShogo

Well-known member
Unless I missed it, did they not have any land-based air assets to help out? Even if the naval air arm has been neglected, I'm kind of surprised there weren't any strike craft launching from airbases in Cuba or Hispaniola.

Hopefully the NCR submarines won't be too devastating. Given how heavily China seemed to rely on them you'd hope there'd be some training manuals somewhere on what America learned about anti-submarine options.
 

SuperHeavy

Well-known member
Hopefully the NCR submarines won't be too devastating. Given how heavily China seemed to rely on them you'd hope there'd be some training manuals somewhere on what America learned about anti-submarine options.
Well with the lessons learned from recovered next generation subs like the USS Democracy the US designs could have a real advantage in acoustics. I think the whole point of the design was that it copied what worked for the Chinese ghost fleets. Which means a submarine firing on a US/European convoy could revel itself when firing right in optimal range of an attack sub they couldn't see waiting for an opportunity. In any case they have sharp limit to what they can do with no resupply. Something like the Los Angeles fast attack sub has at max 90 days of food and around three dozen weapons loaded. For the NCR something like that has to last for the trip around South America, they can't use Panama, prowling for targets and finally the entire trip back.
 

SuperHeavy

Well-known member
Actually, they went through the canal in Nicaragua.
Really, I assumed the US would have taken control of anything like that decades ago for obvious reasons. I find it pretty hard to believe they would not have at least mined the hell out of it when the war kicked off.
 

DarthAwesome

Relativistic Warfare Strategist
Really, I assumed the US would have taken control of anything like that decades ago for obvious reasons. I find it pretty hard to believe they would not have at least mined the hell out of it when the war kicked off.

Nicaragua Lagoon, Strait of Nicaragua

Admiral Fletcher of the NCR Navy Southern Fleet despised the humid jungle air, and the mist that seemed to make it impossible to see ahead. The NCR naval base situated on this volcanic island – the furthest flung of its outposts other than Hawaii – was generally considered a punishment posting

Oh really?
 

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