Fallout The Eagle And The Bear [Fallout AU]

Navarro

Well-known member
You think the Chinese states want to take control over vast swathes of radioactive wasteland where every pre-war town was nuked and every pre-war major city was glassed by multiple double-digit megaton bombs?
 

ForeverShogo

Well-known member
I'd say it's less about taking over radioactive territory and more about trying to deal with the problem before it can migrate into whatever good territory they do own.
 

AspblastUSA

Well-known member
Woah, I didn't actually expect a reply! I see my flippant prediction about taking on the USA and USSR at the same time ended about as poorly as expected. Honestly I'm almost surprised there's a PRC in the 2330s, but I suppose the (presumed) RoC that controlled the rest of the coast would have it's hands far too busy with endless ghouls to stomp on them before they got established. Given how China ended up even worse off than the USA though I can't help but wonder if the PRC support the Californians are expecting might not be disappointing.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Woah, I didn't actually expect a reply! I see my flippant prediction about taking on the USA and USSR at the same time ended about as poorly as expected. Honestly I'm almost surprised there's a PRC in the 2330s, but I suppose the (presumed) RoC that controlled the rest of the coast would have it's hands far too busy with endless ghouls to stomp on them before they got established.

1. PLA forces took advantage of the gap between the Chinese missiles firing and the arrival of the American-Soviet counter-response to evacuate all the directly-targeted areas, then spent the next decade in an exodus across China to fall back to Manchuria as per their pre-existing orders. The immediate post-nuclear period in the American/RoC occupation zone was largely a mix of warlords/"military governors" (esp. with American, Australian, Japanese units having lost contact with their native governments) following directions from Taipei when they accorded with what they wanted to do. After a few decades this got civilianised and centralised, but by that time there wasn't the energy to launch a campaign against the remnant PRC and well ... the balance of power is starting to shift against the PRC, but it's still the single strongest military power in what was once Chine.
2. Spoilers.

Given how China ended up even worse off than the USA though I can't help but wonder if the PRC support the Californians are expecting might not be disappointing.

As you've seen, the PRC has developed fusion power, PA, and rapid-fire gauss rifles in the interim. The regions they control weren't subject to the full level of nuclear war that the rest of China was, being largely outside the unoccupied zones.
 

SuperHeavy

Well-known member
Well I would rate their territory as the most likely to eat a strategic US nuclear strike when their forces start marching with the Californians. At least once orbital surveillance can identify their population and industrial centers.
 

ForeverShogo

Well-known member
Just some minor map suggestions . . .

The Gobi Scout Rifle from New Vegas says that as part of the war there was a Gobi Desert Campaign. The Gobi Desert is mostly a strip that covers parts of southern Mongolia and northern China and follows the Chinese-Mongolian border.

It's mostly untouched in your map, but without radically altering the map, you could probably just say America and its allies fully occupied Mongolia and you'd basically have half of the Gobi in allied hands.

In the opening for Fallout 4, on the day the nukes were launched, that newscaster says that the 5th Infantry Division is fighting on Mambajao Island. That's an island in the Philippines. You can't actually see it on that map but it's just off the northern coast of the Philippine's large southern island.

So there should probably be a Chinese presence in the southern Philippines that hasn't been totally destroyed yet.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Just some minor map suggestions . . .

The Gobi Scout Rifle from New Vegas says that as part of the war there was a Gobi Desert Campaign. The Gobi Desert is mostly a strip that covers parts of southern Mongolia and northern China and follows the Chinese-Mongolian border.

It's mostly untouched in your map, but without radically altering the map, you could probably just say America and its allies fully occupied Mongolia and you'd basically have half of the Gobi in allied hands.

Yeah, that'd work.

In the opening for Fallout 4, on the day the nukes were launched, that newscaster says that the 5th Infantry Division is fighting on Mambajao Island. That's an island in the Philippines. You can't actually see it on that map but it's just off the northern coast of the Philippine's large southern island.

So there should probably be a Chinese presence in the southern Philippines that hasn't been totally destroyed yet.

The newscaster says that troops were stationed there, not that they were fighting - could have some parts of Indonesia remaining unoccupied to justify that.

(BTW, the ChiComs did launch a naval invasion of Australia in mid-2070, but only managed to sack Darwin before being repulsed).
 

ForeverShogo

Well-known member
I assumed there was fighting just because he mentions driving the Chinese into the Bohol Sea, but it doesn't really change anything if I'm misinterpreting things. China still got its shit kicked in badly enough that they'd rather see the world bathed in nuclear fire than admit defeat.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
Peek at Ch. 24:

==*==

RE: REORGANIZATION OF THE US ARMY

FROM: Secretary of War Sebastian G. McCain

TO: Secretary of the Army Edward. H. Devers

THOUGHT FOR THE DAY: No victory without sacrifice.

DATE: 1/25/2332

THE LARGE-SCALE TASK force structure has had its successes; however it also tends to be too fluid at times, as units abruptly shoved together fail to make a fully cohesive force. The practice of territorial commands also is less useful for sustained offensive combat operations than long-term military policing of the type that was necessary to restore law and order for the first two decades after the Great American Anarchy (2077-2283). These flaws were not at first noticed, as the US largely engaged in minor military expeditions across Central and Western Europe since the fall of the “Ronto” regime in 2293. However, the invasion by the NCR has exposed them. We are not looking to wholly eliminate the flexibility of the old model, but in accordance with the Military Appropriations Act 2332 the US Army is to be reorganised under the following command structure:
  • General Alexander Autumn, General of the Armies and Supreme Allied Commander, will represent the top level of US Army operational command, answering directly to the Commander-in-Chief and Secretary of War.
    • The Army of the Colorado, under General Franklin H. Granite. This force will have as its objective operations in the South-West, including northern areas of what was once Mexico. Its objective is to defeat all forces of the NCR and allies in that theatre and to bring about the capitulation of the NCR’s urban-industrial core – designated as the cities of Shady Sands, Los Angeles, Las Vegas, and San Diego. 200,000 combat personnel.
    • The Army of the Rockies, under General Victoria Cantrell. This force’s area of operation is the southern Great Plains and Rocky Mountains; its objective is to break through the Rocky Mountains, take control of the Interstate highway intersection at Salt Lake City, and advance along I-80 to Sacramento. 200,000 combat personnel.
    • The Army of the Columbia, under General Julius Chase. This force’s area of operation is the northern Great Plains and the Montana/Idaho gap. The objective is to penetrate enemy defenses in the latter region and break through to take military control of Vancouver, Seattle, Portland and Arroyo – which satellite intelligence has designated as a secondary industrial area to the NCR’s southern industrial centre. The latter city is also important for symbolic purposes in addition to its strategic role. 200,000 combat personnel.
    • Allied expeditionary troops of the Kaiserliche Reichswehr under Feldmarschall (5-star equivalent) Frederick Augustus Hohenzollern, designated as “Battle Group America”. 100,000 soldiers will be present by mid-2332. Forces await designation to a combat zone.
    • Allied expeditionary troops of the Royal British Army under Sir Charles Arthur Maudling, 4-star equivalent; designated British Expeditionary Force to America. 75,000 will be present by mid-2332, 100,000 by the end of the year. Forces await designation to a combat zone.
In addition, the combat size of US Army divisions has been increased to 10,000 and in accordance with this they have been restructured. Instead of a triangular (two maneuver elements and an artillery element) formation we will be switching to a new pentomic (five maneuver elements) model. In light of this a Corps – the basic unit of operational art – will now be 40,000, which will put each Army at 5 Corps formations. When the US Army Air Corps is ready its new airborne divisions will be added to this structure.

The roles of the USN, USMC and USAF are not discussed in this document; I have sent memoranda to the Secretaries of the Navy and Air Force discussing their particular reorganisations under the Military Appropriations Act 2332.

God bless America.
 
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SuperHeavy

Well-known member
I pity the Army of the Rockies trying to break through the mountains that the BOS has had at least decades to entrench into will be a bloody affair. Even if you are liberal with the use of tactical nukes Fallout has blast doors capable of standing up to extremely close hits from strategic level nukes.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
I would put my money on theory that includes railguns, supercavitating torpedoes, and plasma railguns versus gunpowder and converted oil tankers. Especially when one side has friendly ports that can repair and refit your ships that don't need a South American round trip. It really sucks when the only way you are getting your new hull leaks fixed is sailing for a few weeks back home.

If you're looking for a repeat of Operation Praying Mantis for the coming naval battle, prepare to be disappointed.
 

SuperHeavy

Well-known member
If the NCR can pull off giving the USN a pyrrhic victory with what they have and so far away from friendly ports then more power to them and give their admiral a fancy hat.
 

Pantegral

Member
  • Allied expeditionary troops of the Kaiserliche Reichswehr under Feldmarschall (5-star equivalent) Frederick Augustus Hohenzollern, designated as “Battle Group America”. 100,000 soldiers will be present by mid-2332. Forces await designation to a combat zone.
  • Allied expeditionary troops of the Royal British Army under Sir Charles Arthur Maudling, 4-star equivalent; designated British Expeditionary Force to America. 75,000 will be present by mid-2332, 100,000 by the end of the year. Forces await designation to a combat zone.
How is reclamation and technological development coming along in Europe, and how much of it was bankrolled by the US? I would assume that the British and German forces have relatively modern equipment, but nevertheless "last-gen" compared to American forces?
 

Navarro

Well-known member
How is reclamation and technological development coming along in Europe, and how much of it was bankrolled by the US? I would assume that the British and German forces have relatively modern equipment, but nevertheless "last-gen" compared to American forces?

Hmm ... hmm ... the German forces have semi-automatic laser weapons, combat armour, and are relatively mechanised (vehicles run off of energy cells like in FO2, don't have internal fusion plants like modern American vehicles). They have "Donnerschlag" MBTs which are basically equivalent to fully-upgraded Leopard 1s and a decent number of (export) Soviet T-160 'Tesla tanks' looted from abandoned WarPac depots. IU they would be considered equivalent to slightly-boosted EuroCom forces during the Middle Eastern wars, just before the collapse.

British have similar, but better tanks in the form of the Cataphract MBT (which is basically a Chieftain with an ETC gun). They also generally have taken to using gyrojet rifles instead of laser weapons, largely because they relied less on American largesse to tech-up.
 
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AspblastUSA

Well-known member
British have similar, but better tanks in the form of the Cataphract MBT (which is basically a Chieftain with an ETC gun). They also generally have taken to using gyrojet rifles instead of laser weapons, largely because they relied less on American largesse to tech-up.

Of course the British would invent the bolter instead of sticking to the las/plas dynamic like everyone else.

Jokes aside for the naval battle in the Caribbean I actually expect the NCR to be able to hold their own tactically. While their navy is technologically inferior, AFAIK the gap isn't nearly as big as in ground combat and more importantly neither side has the qualitative advantage of knowing what they're doing. At least part of the reason the US army has been going from strength to strength is that they've spent a half century at this point refining modern PA assisted combined arms warfare while expanding US territory and the NCR simply hasn't. On the naval front though, neither side has fought an actual sea war with a peer power since before the nukes.

What I think is going to doom the NCR Navy in the long run is logistics. Even if their mexican allies have gulf ports capable of servicing their ships they won't be able to do it nearly as well as Californian ones, and shipping supplies that far to do so is a long supply line; and all that's not even mentioning that Mexican ports won't be anywhere near as well defended. Their other option would be quitting the gulf entirely to return to California for repair and resupply, and if the USN isn't stupid they'll be watching the canals like a hawk with subs to try and ambush the Californians in that very scenario.

More critically, what does a naval victory actually look like for the NCR? Lets say they do successfully contest that Caribbean, are they expecting to be able to drive enclave forces out of the gulf entirely? Merely wrest enough control for landings in the Southeast? We don't know and I almost have a suspicion that the NCR government hasn't considered it either. Honestly to no small extent this has the feeling of a... not a desperation play precisely, but an attempt to throw anything at the wall to recapture the initiative. There have been two major campaigns in the war thus far and both were US/Enclave victories. I'm willing to bet the administration back in Shady Sands is starting to feel the pressure to produce some kind of victory.
 

Navarro

Well-known member
While their navy is technologically inferior, AFAIK the gap isn't nearly as big as in ground combat and more importantly neither side has the qualitative advantage of knowing what they're doing.

The tech gap isn't that big in ground combat too. NCR has vertibirds, PA, fusion-powered APCs and tanks. They have fusion-engine stealth fighters which are more maneuverable than E-USA planes on account of their designs.

At least part of the reason the US army has been going from strength to strength is that they've spent a half century at this point refining modern PA assisted combined arms warfare while expanding US territory and the NCR simply hasn't.

The issue in key part is that losing so much allowed for a radical change in US doctrine. The Enclave forces in FO3 were all power-armoured because that's how they'd fought at least since Richardson (pre-War US was more like what's shown in the OA sim). So when Autumn opens up the US Armed Forces to wastelanders, vastly increasing the recruiting pool, he keeps that starting point of power-armoured heavy infantry as the main ground-pounders because that's what he knows. And so there's a big initial investment in starting up mass PA production in the years 2278-81, and PA spam turns out to be a very good equipment doctrine so why mess with what works?

The NCR Army develops in a very different way.

What I think is going to doom the NCR Navy in the long run is logistics.

The NCR's big problem right now is logistics. Dallas to the Phoenix depots is some 900 miles - to the Boneyard factories some 1200. Chicago to SLC is 1200 miles, to Reno is 1600. That's why O'Hare was so important as a target. Also causing problems for the NCR is the fact that the highway network gets a lot thinner as you go out west. That's in part why they're pulling out of the Great Plains. As it pushes West the E-US will encounter the same difficulties.

Their other option would be quitting the gulf entirely to return to California for repair and resupply, and if the USN isn't stupid they'll be watching the canals like a hawk with subs to try and ambush the Californians in that very scenario.

The USN has relatively few attack subs right now - building an advanced navy from relative scratch is a big endeavour even over 40 years and they decided to focus more on nuclear-deterrent SLBM launchers of the pre-War Democracy class (now upgraded with large-scale stealth fields. Premier Cheng, we read your book!). But they have the new designs on file.

More critically, what does a naval victory actually look like for the NCR? Lets say they do successfully contest that Caribbean, are they expecting to be able to drive enclave forces out of the gulf entirely? Merely wrest enough control for landings in the Southeast?

A. Political/diplomatic purposes.
B. As a distraction for a more strategic move.
 
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