King Arts
Well-known member
Ok please teach me great and wise lordsfire. Tell me what it would look like if Americans culturally genocided Canadians. And please stay away from laughable stereotypes like no more maple syrup and hockey.
Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2
- Thread starter Emperor Tippy
- Start date
Genocide can be applied to a town, city, or province, with the intent of destroying a nation or ethnic group. So yes, it could be argued that Russian committed genocide. However, it should be noted that the Ukrainians are going to play up any massacre as genocide for political reasons, regardless if it's true or not. So you should take Ukrainian claims with a grain of salt unless they can prove their claims.
That said, the Russians are probably committing genocide.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
You lack the understanding of what a culture is in the first place, there's no point in trying to explain to you what would change, when you don't understand what is there in the first place.
mrttao
Well-known member
While true, this is not the actual argument.
He argued that according to the linked article, the evidence presented was only of forced cultural assimilation without intentionally killing noncombatants which is why UN is not calling it genocide (as it is explicitly excluded from the definition as per international convention).
And that calling this genocide dilutes the term, as the term means mass killing, not forced change to culture.
And all the posts since have been back and forth between several guys piling on on him and telling him he is wrong and that forced cultural assimilation without killing civilians is totes real genocide.
Your post I am quoting is the first that suggests that the linked article is wrong and mass killing is occuring...
Which is more of a pivot than actually addressing his position.
Dude, The Lakota and Cheyenne can understand one another. Does that mean they are the same tribe and there are no distinct differences between them? The Scandinavians can also mostly understand one another. Are they all the same?
It is not possible now,but according to what i read,till 18th century all slavic people could undarstandt each other,from Croatia to Siberia.Dude, The Lakota and Cheyenne can understand one another. Does that mean they are the same tribe and there are no distinct differences between them? The Scandinavians can also mostly understand one another. Are they all the same?
King Arts
Well-known member
Ok fair enough, that supports your argument.
Yes but fuck preferences for government that does not count as part of culture. Otherwise what the U.S. did to Japan by forcing them to stop having a god emperor is "genocide". No change in political policies is not by itself genocide.
Stop when you say genocide with Chinese characteristics are you talking about the modern day CCP, or are you talking about a hypotetical normal China? There is a differance communism is an anti life ideology. If in Poland the PZPR in Warsaw decided to do what you said to the people of Torun city of Poland that would be genocide. Because the people that would be killed would be Poles, and the children would be raised to be communists which are a diffrent group of people. But if the same should happen and a democratic, fascist, or monarchy Poland decided to do the same thing to the people of Torun Poland then it would not be genocide since even if the King of Poland is a tyrant everyone involved both the killers and victims are Poles.
In an example of China I need to know if it's a regular China or if it's CCP, and second who they are oppressing. If it is Han Chinese or sinicied people like them no not genocide. But if it's a diffrent group that has completely alien customs but is merely under Chinese political hegemony like the Uigers then it would be genocide.
So if Warsaw orders the destruction of Torun. That can be a genocide? Are the Torun completely diffrent than other Poles?
Toruń - Wikipedia
Warsaw - Wikipedia
What are the differances between modern Austria and Germany? I know historical differances Austria was Catholic and was ruled by Hapsburgs. But neither nation is a monarchy and both are secular and do not have religious law.
As for your last argument that I bolded you must not have thought ahead as to why they are seperate. It's not because of massive differance. In the past it was with religion and dynastic politics. But now I see three main reasons. Inertia, second is other powers preventing it in the modern day because they don't want a stronger central Germany in the middle of Europe. Germany was split after ww2 after all, and third is bad publicity if Germany and Austria pursue it. Again world war 2, Germany wants to avoid doing things that make the world associate them with the nazis.
Ok, I acknowledge I don't know so I will take your word for it.
All borderlands eventually have less autonomy as empires grow and technology advanced. The U.S. states used to have much more power vis a vis the Federal Government.
This is a fair argument, so it is possible. However regions have rebelled against the Russians or other empires and not been genocided historically. Even in the modern day we can point to Checnya. They haven't been genocided and turned into Muscovites.
I mean I agree at the province level it could. But I don't think it can at the city level anymore city states do not really exxist anymore, so most ethnic groups have more land for themselves than a city and it's inhabitants. But it is possible and has happened in the bronze age.
I know what culture is genius, and am aware of both the visible and invisible parts of culture. There is a reason the iceburg eample is given. With the obvious points of food, and dress being the most skin deep parts of culture, yet deeper core parts include the religion of a people and their belief, ways of thought, and morals.
Actually no. I do think that forced cultural assimilation CAN be genocide. Cultures are resiliant. But well if you are trying to end them you can. Again just taking one thing out of the iceburg isn't. But if you are prohibiting national dress then it is a worrying sign for eample as it never stops there.
I don't know enough about the Indians. You are a Native right Captian? If Native Americans were able to retake land from the U.S.(impossible I know) would their tribes be able to unite in a single country?Dude, The Lakota and Cheyenne can understand one another. Does that mean they are the same tribe and there are no distinct differences between them? The Scandinavians can also mostly understand one another. Are they all the same?
A single one? No. You'd get a patchwork not unlike Europe.
King Arts
Well-known member
Like every tribe would want a seperate nation? I guess I can understand not all of them fitting into one. But there aren't any greater "tribe alliances?"
One does not elect an emperor according to own preferences.
If you check out this poll, you will also see differences in attitudes to all sorts of institutions and trust towards them.
CCP. I was alluding to the fact that by legal definition of genocide, the line between "hard" Nazi style genocide and "cultural genocide" is of questionable relevancy, according to said definition, in either case its still genocide.
Genocide - Wikipedia
Just plain slaughter of said group is 1 of 5 specified acts that constitute genocide.
I guess if a case can be considered a "self-genocide" then it may or may not become merely "boring" mass murder. But in more realistic setting, generally if someone goes out of their way to commit murder on the scale of national population, chances are that some major ethno-cultural difference is probably there.
Torun, no. Some Silesian city like Katowice, possibly, because that's a little bit different culture. But still much less different than Russians and Ukrainians.In an example of China I need to know if it's a regular China or if it's CCP, and second who they are oppressing. If it is Han Chinese or sinicied people like them no not genocide. But if it's a diffrent group that has completely alien customs but is merely under Chinese political hegemony like the Uigers then it would be genocide.
So if Warsaw orders the destruction of Torun. That can be a genocide? Are the Torun completely diffrent than other Poles?
Toruń - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Warsaw - Wikipedia
Jeeez...
Just because you personally don't know shit about some cultures doesn't make them one culture, it just means you are stubbornly ignorant.
Fortunately for us, we can consult people with a better idea through the magic of internet:
Cultural differences between Germany and Austria
Austria and Germany are neighbouring countries that share many likes and dislikes, but there are also subtle differences in everyday life that can certainly lead to minor misunderstandings.
What are the cultural differences between Austria and Germany?
Answer (1 of 27): First of all, i am Austrian and i am proud to say, that I have lived many different parts of Austria and they are very different. But Germany has a completely different culture and the people‘s mindset is not at all to be compared. To generalize Austrians is difficult but i will...
So at least i see the problem, you love overly simplistic approximations of grand ethno-political questions.
No, pre-modern people very much had cultural differences, though cultures were far more fragmented even within one country (the common example is that you could often travel 50-100km in one country and not be able to understand the language anymore), but still, especially in case of smaller, less culturally fragmented countries, those differences would often be cause of dynastic and religious splits even. After the printing press facilitated widespread literacy, most modern style nations with country spanning unified national cultures started forming, which got us where we are now (but most of third world isn't on the same schedule, hence many of its problems).
Which is yet another example of separate line of history between the Russian and Ukrainian Cossacks - the former were more restricted by the empire and so ended up less distinct, while the history of Ukraine and its denizens was much more tumultous of the same time, so it was much more of a borderland (ironically that's what the name means in slavic languages).
Not in the "killing" understanding of the term, but they are being culturally assimilated aggressively. Much like Ukrainians and Poles were when ruled by Moscow.
Russification of Ukraine - Wikipedia
Russification of Poles during the Partitions - Wikipedia
Chechen genocide - Wikipedia
And then there are the less well known aspects of Russian Empire:
Genocide of Indigenous peoples - Wikipedia
Curious that you subscribe to such self-hating history of some western empires, even giving leftists a run for their money in that, but are so ignorant of Russian Empire's history.
Yes, the best analogy for "Native Americans" is "Asians" or "Hispanics". Groups of loosely similar people who don't necessarily like each other nor are necessarily very similar in culture but leftists love to throw them into the same bag for political convenience.
Last edited:
Some of them had alliances back in the day and would get along well enough together, others still don't much care for each other at all, evan after all this time. Which is why you would end up with a patchwork of countries like Europe.
Adnt some tribes still very hostile to others as well because of history
I can't say very much because I only really know about my own tribe and the Crow. I don't know if it's still strong enough to have people picking fights with each other, but there is still bad blood there due to the Crow working with the Army to help them find our hiding places.
I mean, seems about right.
So potentially a good amount of violence
Wow. No wonder you guys lost the Americas.
Ignorance IS a Virtue. That's not sarcasm.
If you can't speak authoritatively about cultures, societies and events happening halfway around the world with complete and utter baseless confidence despite wallowing in complete ignorance both factually and holistically how do you ever expect to influence people? 🤷♀️
King Arts
Well-known member
Hey that's just the way us Americans wins.
mrttao
Well-known member
That is what we are told.
But at least in canada it was recently proven to be a hoax.
Hoax confirmed: Excavation of Canada’s Native American “child mass graves” reveals zero bodies. Remember all the churches that burned?
Remember when there were questions about the mass graves of Native American children at assimilation schools in British Colombia?
notthebee.com
So who knows how accurate the story is for the USA.
I mean, our war on the natives is pretty obvious.That is what we are told.
But at least in canada it was recently proven to be a hoax.
Hoax confirmed: Excavation of Canada’s Native American “child mass graves” reveals zero bodies. Remember all the churches that burned?
Remember when there were questions about the mass graves of Native American children at assimilation schools in British Colombia?
So who knows how accurate the story is for the USA.
@Captain X how large if your families tribe now compared to back then?
And what tribes were wiped out completely?
Bigking321
Well-known member
The thread on SB is just brushing that off.
Of course they genocided the natives. That's why they burnt down 61 churches and didn't arrest anyone. So what if the area wasn't a mass grave. They are just somewhere else. Nice try at a "gotcha".
Of course they genocided the natives. That's why they burnt down 61 churches and didn't arrest anyone. So what if the area wasn't a mass grave. They are just somewhere else. Nice try at a "gotcha".