Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

[Blasterbot]

So, the implication is that media attention is what really dictates what these people get their tactical fiscal conservatism aimed at, as opposed to the obvious issue of raw number of billions being supposedly wasted. Quite disappointing behavior coming from people who pride themselves on not being led by the nose by mainstream media.
In effect the media get their objective - they get the malcontents angry at a spending item that's relatively small and defensible, instead one that is bigger yet harder to defend.

I will frame it in a different way. this thread moves way faster, gets way more engagement, and has more people consistently posting in it than the climate thread. people come here and post daily updates of what Ukraine says is happening in the war or what government just approved more aid. and the response drawn out from the group is we have given a lot. where is the line we stop at? then they get called vatniks.

But yes. the media is a major driver of the conversation. if they upload a patch to the NPCs that their dialog tree needs to talk about how AR-15s are bad then if conservatives do not talk in response they will just lose. if the media doesn't upload a patch to the NPCs that talks about say hunter biden receiving millions of dollars from china then if the conservatives start talking about it they are just crazy conspiracy theorists. partisan individuals making shit up to attack poor biden's son who was addicted to crack and was a good boy who needs love and support. not to be put on blast.

like it or not the conservatives have little ability to set the national conversation. Trump is off twitter. FOX got rid of Tucker. the other places are generally to small to reach people who are outside the base.

 

[Marduk]

I will frame it in a different way. this thread moves way faster, gets way more engagement, and has more people consistently posting in it than the climate thread. people come here and post daily updates of what Ukraine says is happening in the war or what government just approved more aid. and the response drawn out from the group is we have given a lot. where is the line we stop at? then they get called vatniks.

Yes, and the reasons for it have little to do with the amount of money involved, that's exactly my point, there are "other reasons" driving said attention - hence, it's not about the money.

Attention?
So, why are you trying to save 100bn here at the cost of some geopolitical interests, instead of trying to save 555bn by giving attention to virtue signalling waste in the climate thread?

But yes. the media is a major driver of the conversation. if they upload a patch to the NPCs that their dialog tree needs to talk about how AR-15s are bad then if conservatives do not talk in response they will just lose. if the media doesn't upload a patch to the NPCs that talks about say hunter biden receiving millions of dollars from china then if the conservatives start talking about it they are just crazy conspiracy theorists. partisan individuals making shit up to attack poor biden's son who was addicted to crack and was a good boy who needs love and support. not to be put on blast.

Why do you want the isolationists\Russia fanclub (because the more interventionist conservatives are even more pro-Ukraine than the NPCs) to win on this issue?

like it or not the conservatives have little ability to set the national conversation. Trump is off twitter. FOX got rid of Tucker. the other places are generally to small to reach people who are outside the base.

Picking your battles is a thing. Pick easier battles with more to win, if you let the media push you to take hard ones with little to win, well, won't work out well for ya.

 

[AmosTrask]

We sent more than 100 billion last year. we have ear-marked more than 100 billion this year. to put it into perspective we could have built the fucking wall more than 5 times with that. we could have paid down some of the national debt. we could have invested it in any number of domestic projects that desperately need attention and funding. be grateful that the US is as generous with its citizen's money as it is. the idea that 100s of billions of dollars is nothing is insulting.

Trump could have built the wall when he was president. He didn't. Near every single wall builder he contracted turned out to a scammer cutting every corner and pocketing the money. The "National Debt" you're harping on doesn't work as you think it does. Unless you're willing to kowtow to China and the world reverts to the 90s economically and peace returns worldwide. That debt is going nowhere. 100 billion are pennies compared to the myriad of boondoggle your government are spending on odd projects.

Isolationism doesn't and has never worked. Every single member of that movement in the USA are delusional.

 

[DarthOne]

Eh, you do remember the article showing a Russian ship hovering over the pipeline days before it blew, right?

Danish Defence Command Confirms Russian Minisub Equipped SS-750 at Site of Nord Stream Blasts 4 Days Prior

With the Russian minisub equipped SS-750 confirmed near the Nord Stream sabotage sites on September 22nd 2022 further evidence points to Russia's involvement.

oalexanderdk.substack.com

Or did you think a new thread would mean you could push this bull again?

Brietbart is worthless for anything relating to Ukraine, because they are part of the whole fringe right movement to try to cut aid to Ukraine, so they cannot be trusted not to be biased against Ukraine.

The Danes are already pinning this on Russia, and have evidence to back it up in the articles above, and that ship is far more suited to messing with the pipeline than the yacht.

The article about the German's discounting the Russian ship is from fucking February, where as the Danes evidence is from April, and supercedes the BS Breitbart is trying to sell.

My aren’t we defensive? I’m just posting the news as it happens in relations to the Ukraine crisis.

 

[Bacle]

My aren’t we defensive? I’m just posting the news as it happens in relations to the Ukraine crisis.

Defensive, no.

Annoyed at BS for the sake of BS, when the Danes have presented much better and more conclusive evidence than the German's are trying to imply exists in their theory, and when the German's straight up are ignoring the Russian ship with the exact capabilities needed hovering over the pipes, yes.

Germany has proven to be heavily compromised by Russian agents, including the head of counter-intel and even former Chancellor Schroeder, and has had to be nearly dragged kicking and screaming into opposing Russian instead of sucking the Russian teat.

 

[mrttao]

So, the implication is that media attention is what really dictates what these people get their tactical fiscal conservatism aimed at, as opposed to the obvious issue of raw number of billions being supposedly wasted. Quite disappointing behavior coming from people who pride themselves on not being led by the nose by mainstream media.
In effect the media and their allies get their objective - they get the malcontents angry at a spending item that's relatively small and defensible, instead of the one that is bigger and harder to justify.

We are literally in a thread titled "russia ukraine war"
So people talk about russia ukraine war here.

Lots of the posters here are also active in other threads where they talk about other spending. And guess what, they oppose the govt taking their money and spending it on stuff there too!

The worst part is that we literally had this discussion before. you were proven wrong. and you just pretend this never happened and keep on throwing this strawman over and over again. In the hope of gaslighting more people who haven't seen you proven wrong last time you tried this.

 

[mrttao]

Trump could have built the wall when he was president. He didn't.

Trump literally started building the wall multiple times. Every time it was interrupted after some construction was done.

Congress stole the funds, multiple times.
Judges kept on throwing out injunctions.
And every other form of bullshit was done to interrupt construction.
And every time trump just tried again.

Wall segments WERE built and the dems cried a lot about how awful and cruel it is and that it is literally murdering all those poor innocent migrants.

 

[AmosTrask]

Trump literally started building the wall multiple times. Every time it was interrupted after some construction was done.

Congress stole the funds, multiple times.
Judges kept on throwing out injunctions.
And every other form of bullshit was done to interrupt construction.
And every time trump just tried again.

Wall segments WERE built and the dems cried a lot about how awful and cruel it is and that it is literally murdering all those poor innocent migrants.

The power of double think right out of 1984. You don't happen to be an OPCA member by chance?

 

[mrttao]

The power of double think right out of 1984. You don't happen to be an OPCA member by chance?

Psychological projection. The only one doing double think here is you.

I have some serious criticisms about trump.
But "he chose to not build the wall" is just not true.

 

[Marduk]

We are literally in a thread titled "russia ukraine war"
So people talk about russia ukraine war here.

Lots of the posters here are also active in other threads where they talk about other spending. And guess what, they oppose the govt taking their money and spending it on stuff there too!

Are they? And about this specific major sum of money? Do you realize other people can see those other threads and don't have to take your word for it?

The worst part is that we literally had this discussion before. you were proven wrong. and you just pretend this never happened and keep on throwing this strawman over and over again. In the hope of gaslighting more people who haven't seen you proven wrong last time you tried this.

Don't play history on me, where was i proven wrong, especially on such a loose topic? You are proving yourself untrustworthy right here in fact.

 

[mrttao]

Are they? And about this specific major sum of money?

facepalm. both reading AND logic fail.
If they are complaining about this specific sum of money (ukraine aid), then they are still complaining about Ukraine.

Proving you wrong requires they complain about DIFFERENT sums of money than the one being spent on ukraine.

Basically, your argument amounts to "any american who complains about all the money stolen from him by his govt to send to ukraine is actually a vatnik who is very happy that his govt steals from him to pay for anything else. and is only complaining about ukraine and nothing else".

You make this argument every time an american complains about their govt stealing their money to give it to ukraine... in the ukraine thread.

The idea is laughable. Of course they complain about other instances of their govt stealing their money.

This time you are attacking blasterbot. Who has in fact complained about welfare before.
it took 5 seconds of searching to find an example of him saying he wants to cut welfare MORE than he wants to cut ukraine aid in the war thread. You would probably dismiss it as "it does not count because you mrttao said in other threads"

So lets go a step further and to find him saying he wants to cut welfare in other threads:

admittedly some fun ones that may cause a riot are raising the retirement age for social security and reducing what medicare covers. so could toss those to some lefty types to piss them off too.

^He wants to cut retirement and medicare welfare

for the most part it has been. part of the McCarthy hold up was over this so some republicans hold enough of a belief over it to fight for it. how well that translates into action we won't find out till autumn since McConnel fucked us and passed an omnibus that funds the government till then.

^He wanted to defund the government. and is upset at McConnel both funding it and spending lots via omnibus bill

there you go. debunked.

blasterbot is not a vatnik who only ever complains about ukraine spending and would be very happy to be stolen for to pay for welfare.
He in fact dislikes welfare too and other forms of frivolous spending.
===

Don't play history on me, where was i proven wrong, especially on such a loose topic? You are proving yourself untrustworthy right here in fact.

It isn't playing history and it isn't a loose topic.
The topic is very tight. You, marduk, repeatedly make this exact same strawman over and over again.

Every time when an american says he is unhappy with their govt stealing massive amount of money from them to give to ukraine. You accuse him of being a vatnik who only ever complains about Ukraine spending and is in fact quite happy to have their money stolen for literally any other frivolous reason.

You did it to me, you did it to other people.
I proved you wrong about me when you last did it to me with quotes showing you where I complained about the bullshit redistributive fiscal policy outside of ukraine threads.

And now I proved you wrong about blasterbot when you tried to do it to him too.

 

[Marduk]

facepalm. both reading AND logic fail.
If they are complaining about this specific sum of money (ukraine aid), then they are still complaining about Ukraine.

Proving you wrong requires they complain about DIFFERENT sums of money than the one being spent on ukraine.

Not any. Specific cheeky people who have never shown great interest in fiscal conservatism, but suddenly, 100bn spent on Ukraine, which in terms of US government wasting money is in fact a relatively small item when compared to various socialist and green programs.

I would call this group tactical fiscal conservatives, some of them merely cheeky isolationists who don't feel like defending isolationist delusions about how the world works, and some of them, yes, Russia simps.

Basically, your argument amounts to "any american who complains about all the money stolen from him by his govt to send to ukraine is actually a vatnik who is very happy that his govt steals from him to pay for anything else. and is only complaining about ukraine and nothing else".

Where the fuck did i say that? And by "i" i mean me, not some other person. Quote or it didn't happen.

You make this argument every time an american complains about their govt stealing their money to give it to ukraine... in the ukraine thread.

The idea is laughable. Of course they complain about other instances of their govt stealing their money.

That's the funny question, do they?

This time you are attacking blasterbot. Who has in fact complained about welfare before.
it took 5 seconds of searching to find an example of him saying he wants to cut welfare MORE than he wants to cut ukraine aid in the war thread. You would probably dismiss it as "it does not count because you mrttao said in other threads"

And yet it's also a case of him being cheeky and targeting politically incredibly hard targets, which raises further questions.

And it still doesn't answer my question - why the 100bn for Ukraine is such a problem, why do people pay more attention to it than to half a trillion for green bullshit? And i mean that one green spending bill specifically, not generic conservative "welfare bad", yes, i know, most people here aren't fans of this stuff, including me.

At this rate those oh so clever fiscal conservatives will be spending most of their time complaining about few billions for dunno, military aid for Israel, while Biden throws trillions on green grifts, aka willingly let themselves be absorbed into the fringes.

So lets go a step further and to find him saying he wants to cut welfare in other threads:

^He wants to cut retirement and medicare welfare

^He wanted to defund the government. and is upset at McConnel both funding it and spending lots via omnibus bill

there you go. debunked.

blasterbot is not a vatnik who only ever complains about ukraine spending and would be very happy to be stolen for to pay for welfare.
He in fact dislikes welfare too and other forms of frivolous spending.
===

Only when challenged on this very subject. And why do you think he can't argue for himself btw?

It isn't playing history and it isn't a loose topic.
The topic is very tight. You, marduk, repeatedly make this exact same strawman over and over again.

I didn't say that i don't use the argument, i challenged your implication that "it was proven wrong".

Every time when an american says he is unhappy with their govt stealing massive amount of money from them to give to ukraine. You accuse him of being a vatnik who only ever complains about Ukraine spending and is in fact quite happy to have their money stolen for literally any other frivolous reason.

Quote me calling them vatniks for it or admit to being a liar.

You did it to me, you did it to other people.
I proved you wrong about me when you last did it to me with quotes showing you where I complained about the bullshit redistributive fiscal policy outside of ukraine threads.

Quote it.

And now I proved you wrong about blasterbot when you tried to do it to him too.

You proved jack shit so far.

 

[mrttao]

Where the fuck did i say that? And by "i" i mean me, not some other person. Quote or it didn't happen.

You literally double down on it in the very same post where you ask "where did I say that".

And it still doesn't answer my question - why the 100bn for Ukraine is such a problem, why do people pay more attention to it than to half a trillion for green bullshit? And i mean that one green spending bill specifically, not generic conservative "welfare bad", yes, i know, most people here aren't fans of this stuff, including me.

It is such a problem because the govt is stealing our money to give to other people.
Literally the same reason welfare is bad.

Heck, both me AND blasterbot have previously made the offer of letting people send ukraine that money so long as it comes with an equal reduction in welfare.

You are talking from both sides of your mouth here and its coming out as nonsense.

Only when challenged on this very subject. And why do you think he can't argue for himself btw?

No, those quotes were not in ukraine thread and not discussing ukraine.

 

[Marduk]

You literally double down on it in the very same post where you ask "where did I say that".

Double down on what? Please bold the part where i called someone a vatnik.
Sorry, i'm starting to think you are confusing me with someone else.

And on account of "the lady doth protest too much" i'm going to do you the courtesy of checking where do you stand.
And the results are interesting. If anyone is complaining about Ukraine spending just merely on financial concerns alone, well, you yourself are a terrible example of such a person, so if anyone is, they may not want you of all people arguing for them.

Russia(gate/bot) - Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

The IRA style resistance predictions are getting vindicated i see. Yep. :) It's dangerous being a collaborationist, thankfully! :)

www.the-sietch.com

You go on about Zelensky being a "globohomo puppet" and give credit to "muh western mercenaries" Russian propaganda.

Russia(gate/bot) - Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

Russia's estimated to have lost around 30 thousand or so people in this war. You normally have to kill over a 100 thousand to get them to even feel the pinch of a war and have to kill close to half a million before they scream uncle. Soviet Union had roughly twice the population and much...

www.the-sietch.com

You call Ukraine's democratically elected government an "abusive occupier".

US Biolabs In the Ukraine

Ok but is there enough native stuff to make it actually saving money instead of putting it... oh, I dunno... in India? I dunno, I just feel like Mongolia doesn't really scream "PUT BIOLAB HERE"... and I mean, if they were going for obscurity... I feel like Madgascar would be better... The...

www.the-sietch.com

You gave credit to the "muh Ukraine biolabs" Russian propaganda story.

So please, stop pretending that you are only motivated by fiscal conservative concerns in opposing military aid to Ukraine.

It is such a problem because the govt is stealing our money to give to other people.
Literally the same reason welfare is bad.

Not other people, other countries, who are fucking up a country which you need to be constantly prepared to fuck up just in case, which costs far more money.

Heck, both me AND blasterbot have previously made the offer of letting people send ukraine that money so long as it comes with an equal reduction in welfare.

Which everyone knows is a non-starter in US politics, despite being a most boringly common argument in general. Yet several times larger sums spent on random bullshit are not getting half the attention the 100bn for Ukraine gets, that is still left unexplained.

You are talking from both sides of your mouth here and its coming out as nonsense.

No, those quotes were not in ukraine thread and not discussing ukraine.

Doesn't matter, don't care, if you are going to accuse me of shit, do me the courtesy of showing the evidence.

 

[Bacle]

Double down on what? Please bold the part where i called someone a vatnik.
Sorry, i'm starting to think you are confusing me with someone else.

And on account of "the lady doth protest too much" i'm going to do you the courtesy of checking where do you stand.
And the results are interesting. If anyone is complaining about Ukraine spending just merely on financial concerns alone, well, you yourself are a terrible example of such a person, so if anyone is, they may not want you of all people arguing for them.

Russia(gate/bot) - Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

The IRA style resistance predictions are getting vindicated i see. Yep. :) It's dangerous being a collaborationist, thankfully! :)

www.the-sietch.com

You go on about Zelensky being a "globohomo puppet" and give credit to "muh western mercenaries" Russian propaganda.

Russia(gate/bot) - Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

Russia's estimated to have lost around 30 thousand or so people in this war. You normally have to kill over a 100 thousand to get them to even feel the pinch of a war and have to kill close to half a million before they scream uncle. Soviet Union had roughly twice the population and much...

www.the-sietch.com

You call Ukraine's democratically elected government an "abusive occupier".

US Biolabs In the Ukraine

Ok but is there enough native stuff to make it actually saving money instead of putting it... oh, I dunno... in India? I dunno, I just feel like Mongolia doesn't really scream "PUT BIOLAB HERE"... and I mean, if they were going for obscurity... I feel like Madgascar would be better... The...

www.the-sietch.com

You gave credit to the "muh Ukraine biolabs" Russian propaganda story.

So please, stop pretending that you are only motivated by fiscal conservative concerns in opposing military aid to Ukraine.


Not other people, other countries, who are fucking up a country which you need to be constantly prepared to fuck up just in case, which costs far more money.

Which everyone knows is a non-starter in US politics, despite being a most boringly common argument in general. Yet several times larger sums spent on random bullshit are not getting half the attention the 100bn for Ukraine gets, that is still left unexplained.

Doesn't matter, don't care, if you are going to accuse me of shit, do me the courtesy of showing the evidence.

Don't forget he also was rather happy about Russia kidnapping thousands of Ukrainian kids.

He's a fucking Russia simp, trying to dress up his views/reasoning for supporting Russia in any excuse he can find.

 

[AmosTrask]

According to Girkin, a former KGB analyst. Prigozhin's slip the other day claiming 10,000 contract soldier losses, 10,000 known convicts. Official records show 50,000 convicts were recruited, 16,000 managed to complete their contracts. There are 14,000 who are unaccounted for and have disappeared. He posits that they are dead and Prigozhin is saving face by not admitting to their loss.

That matches the NATO analysis of 30,000 to 40,000 dead from Wagner. A further 45,000 to 60,000 casualties from the Russian Regular Army. Jesus! Bakhmut is strategically useless. Afghanistan killed 15,000 Russians and collapsed the Soviet government. There were widespread assassinations and purges after the Soviet defeat.

 

[Bacle]

 

[AmosTrask]

Another Vatnik and possible Fifth Column member found?

 

[Bacle]

Another Vatnik and possible Fifth Column member found?

I mean the woman could not advertise that she's a Russian sympathizer and possible 5th column agent any harder if she tried.

 

[Cherico]

I mean the woman could not advertise that she's a Russian sympathizer and possible 5th column agent any harder if she tried.

hey man found this clip and thought you would enjoy it.