Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Politics Thread Mk. 2

[The Whispering Monk]

This was supposed to be a slap to Russia that the liberation game can be played by other factions. A quick attack then back over the border. The Russian army garrison collapsed so quick they decided to keep raiding further. They are at the moment within 30 kilometers of the Russian nuclear warheads storage and reprocessing facility. I don't think they'll stay for much longer. They don't have the manpower or transport and we're not planning to attack so deep. If only they could get to that facility and make off with those nukes. Hahaha!

You know these facts how?

 

[AmosTrask]

You know these facts how?

From the the Telegram accounts of the Russians in the raid. Their opsec is just as bad as their Russian Army opponents. They are posting videos. Someone will likely post it on YouTube soon if they haven't already.

They have one T72 and a few BTRs and old GAZ jeeps. There is no way in hell they can hold territory with so few assets. The comment on the liberation game is an assumption.

Of course we could all be wrong and it is all an KGB Black Flag operation masquerading as part of the wider Russian Liberation Front movement.

 

[DarthOne]

Germany Now Investigating Whether Ukraine Bombed Nord Stream Pipes, Reports Say

Germany's FBI Considers Whether Ukraine Bombed Nord Stream: Reports

Germany's FBI equivalent considering Ukraine as perpetrator of last year's destruction of a key energy pipeline, it is claimed.

www.breitbart.com

Germany's domestic equivalent of the FBI is considering leads pointing towards Ukraine being the author of last year's explosions which destroyed a key energy pipeline in the Baltic Sea.

Seriously argued theories fingering every party to the Ukraine War for the Nord Stream blast have been made since underwater explosive charges took out the key route for importing natural gas from Russia to Europe last year. Yet according to a new report published by a group of European broadcasters and publications, Germany's FBI-equivalent the Federal Criminal Police Office (Bundeskriminalamt, BKA) is now looking into leads that implicate Ukraine.

In a summary of the claims made by outlets including Germany's Süddeutsche Zeitung, Sweden's Expressen, and Denmarks Berlingske published by German broadcaster Tagesschau it is reported a yacht rented from a Baltic port at the time of the blasts which was subsequently discovered to have explosives residue onboard is being considered in investigations.

While the reports cite anonymous sources, the Tagesschau report emphasises authorities in Germany, Denmark, and Sweden — the governments leading on the Nord Stream blast investigations — and Ukraine has not commented on these claims publicly.

It is alleged the small yacht 'Andromeda' was rented through a series of shell companies including a fake travel agent based in Poland by a group of Ukrainians who, it is claimed, were travelling on forged Bulgarian and Romanian passports. It was allegedly at sea in the area, including a port call close to the site of the blast, in the days around the act of sabotage against the underwater pipes.

The Times of London reports claims that traces of a "military-grade and underwater-deployable" explosive were found on a table onboard the 'Andromeda' and that:

German police are reported to be concentrating on the Andromeda, a yacht hired by a mysterious Polish company from the north German port of Rostock in the weeks before the attack…. German authorities think the attack could only have been carried out with help from a state security service and have uncovered evidence that may point to Ukrainian involvement…

Sweden's Expressen claims Germany shifted its focus onto the hired yacht after a tip-off from another, unnamed, "Western intelligence service". The reports also specifically express the possibility that the explosive traces on the hired yacht could be a 'red herring' intended to deceive.

The claims are a development of similar details released in March this year, and just one of a series of theories surrounding the Nord Stream blast. Others include the presence of Russian ships in the area at the time of the blast — allegedly discounted by German intelligence — claims that Poland had a strategic interest in seeing it destroyed, and allegations it was the work of the United States.

Indeed, immediately after the blast some immediately leapt to the conclusion it was the work of America, with a Polish politician writing "Thank You, USA" right after the news broke. He later deleted the Tweet.

 

[Bacle]

Germany Now Investigating Whether Ukraine Bombed Nord Stream Pipes, Reports Say

Germany's FBI Considers Whether Ukraine Bombed Nord Stream: Reports

Germany's FBI equivalent considering Ukraine as perpetrator of last year's destruction of a key energy pipeline, it is claimed.

www.breitbart.com

Eh, you do remember the article showing a Russian ship hovering over the pipeline days before it blew, right?

Danish Defence Command Confirms Russian Minisub Equipped SS-750 at Site of Nord Stream Blasts 4 Days Prior

With the Russian minisub equipped SS-750 confirmed near the Nord Stream sabotage sites on September 22nd 2022 further evidence points to Russia's involvement.

oalexanderdk.substack.com

Or did you think a new thread would mean you could push this bull again?

Brietbart is worthless for anything relating to Ukraine, because they are part of the whole fringe right movement to try to cut aid to Ukraine, so they cannot be trusted not to be biased against Ukraine.

The Danes are already pinning this on Russia, and have evidence to back it up in the articles above, and that ship is far more suited to messing with the pipeline than the yacht.

The article about the German's discounting the Russian ship is from fucking February, where as the Danes evidence is from April, and supercedes the BS Breitbart is trying to sell.

 

[mrttao]

Eh, you do remember the article showing a Russian ship hovering over the pipeline days before it blew, right?

Danish Defence Command Confirms Russian Minisub Equipped SS-750 at Site of Nord Stream Blasts 4 Days Prior

With the Russian minisub equipped SS-750 confirmed near the Nord Stream sabotage sites on September 22nd 2022 further evidence points to Russia's involvement.

oalexanderdk.substack.com

Or did you think a new thread would mean you could push this bull again?

Brietbart is worthless for anything relating to Ukraine, because they are part of the whole fringe right movement to try to cut aid to Ukraine, so they cannot be trusted not to be biased against Ukraine.

The Danes are already pinning this on Russia, and have evidence to back it up in the articles above, and that ship is far more suited to messing with the pipeline than the yacht.

The article about the German's discounting the Russian ship is from fucking February, where as the Danes evidence is from April, and supercedes the BS Breitbart is trying to sell.

The only one carrying bull is you.
We went over it. USA bombed the pipes. Massive evidence.
But you are grasping at straws at how russia bombed its own pipes. its stupid. but you have made up your mind. So you will make up evidence to fit your narrative.

 

[Bacle]

The only one carrying bull is you.
We went over it. USA bombed the pipes. Massive evidence.
But you are grasping at straws at how russia bombed its own pipes. its stupid. but you have made up your mind. So you will make up evidence to fit your narrative.

All I did was repost evidence @Marduk posted in the last thread, which has more evidence of what actually happened, and came out after the article claiming the Germans dismissed the Russian ship over the pipes.

And this was at the same time Germany has had a large amount of Russian operatives in it's gov outed, including former Chancellor Scheoder.

So yeah, trusting the Danes and their investigation far more than this supposed German investigation, and definitely way more than Breitbart's retelling of things.

 

[Marduk]

The only one carrying bull is you.
We went over it. USA bombed the pipes. Massive evidence.

>massive evidence
Meaning Russia and some notoriously leftist, anti-american journo said so.

 

[mrttao]

All I did was repost evidence

It isn't "all you did".
You also accused everyone who disagreed with you of "carrying bull".

We had this debate ad nauseum in previous threads.
Where everyone posted all the evidence for all sides of this debate.
But don't pretend like this is a closed debate you already won.

 

[Terthna]

It isn't "all you did".
You also accused everyone who disagreed with you of "carrying bull".

We had this debate ad nauseum in previous threads.
Where everyone posted all the evidence for all sides of this debate.
But don't pretend like this is a closed debate you already won.

This isn't a debate; this is war, and if you don't agree with everything one side says is true without question? You must be siding with the enemy.

 

[Bacle]

This isn't a debate; this is war, and if you don't agree with everything one side says is true without question? You must be siding with the enemy.

You're part right, this isn't a debate; the Danes have the evidence and the ship tracking data is public domain.

As well, the amount of Russian agent infiltration in the German government means there is little reason to trust their reports dismissing the Russia ship hovering over the pipeline, when the Danes come back with far better evidence it was the Russians.

And the idea Russia had nothing to gain by blowing the pipes is ignoring that the pipeline was one of the things causing some in Russia to want to try to be...'nicer' to the west, so they could keep the Euro energy market. Blowing the pipes mooted said feelings/desires in Russia, and the counter-claims by the Russians mean Moscow has more bad guys to use to excuse it's own BS to it's people.

And this isn't about 'not questioning' things, it's about not ignoring larger pieces of context, not trusting the claims of Russia or those who are just kneejerk 'Against the Current Thing' because of opposition to Biden/the Dems.

 

[Cherico]

So I guess to sum up my feelings about this war in general.


Its fucking tragic, really I don't think any one is going to truely 'win' this war. Russia will have thrown away what little they had of a declining generation and will become a resource colony of China at best. Ukraine even if it wins will be badly damaged and have lost a lot of people. Europe they will have spent much of their treasure on this war, and america will have blown through a lot of money that was needed at home on yet another conflict.

And having two of the top grain producers in the world still has every possibility of causing a global famine.

Over all I would have much preferred this war didn't happen at all.

 

[Terthna]

Over all I would have much preferred this war didn't happen at all.

I'm pretty sure most people have felt that way about most wars. Sadly, that never stops those few who don't from starting the next one.

 

[Marduk]

So I guess to sum up my feelings about this war in general.


Its fucking tragic, really I don't think any one is going to truely 'win' this war. Russia will have thrown away what little they had of a declining generation and will become a resource colony of China at best. Ukraine even if it wins will be badly damaged and have lost a lot of people. Europe they will have spent much of their treasure on this war, and america will have blown through a lot of money that was needed at home on yet another conflict.

And having two of the top grain producers in the world still has every possibility of causing a global famine.

Over all I would have much preferred this war didn't happen at all.

Where do people get the idea that it's such a massive financial burden to the West? USA and EU each casually throw greater sums at green programs which often have outright negative return on that investment due to the arbitrary limits on economic activity they impose.

 

[Emperor Tippy]

Where do people get the idea that it's such a massive financial burden to the West? USA and EU each casually throw greater sums at green programs which often have outright negative return on that investment due to the arbitrary limits on economic activity they impose.

The war has hollowed out the German industrial base and it isn't coming back. The overall economic damage, both short and long term, to Europe from this war is massive.

 

[Marduk]

The war has hollowed out the German industrial base and it isn't coming back. The overall economic damage, both short and long term, to Europe from this war is massive.

Only because Germany has insisted to be stupid before the war and despite the war still remains insistent on being as stupid as related green mandates require it to.
As such, it is impossible to conclusively say whether that's the fault of the war or ideological contamination of Germany's energy policy, as the effect given could not exist without both factors being combined.

Moreover, for years many have warned that due to said green policies any kind of global petro energy crisis will fuck over Germany...

 

[Emperor Tippy]

Only because Germany has insisted to be stupid before the war and despite the war still remains insistent on being as stupid as related green mandates require it to.
As such, it is impossible to conclusively say whether that's the fault of the war or ideological contamination of Germany's energy policy, as the effect given could not exist without both factors being combined.

Moreover, for years many have warned that due to said green policies any kind of global petro energy crisis will fuck over Germany...

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the war has fucked over European access to critical commodities and as a consequence of that is seeing the hollowing out of the European industrial base as it relocates out of Europe and it won't be coming back in future.

 

[Blasterbot]

Where do people get the idea that it's such a massive financial burden to the West? USA and EU each casually throw greater sums at green programs which often have outright negative return on that investment due to the arbitrary limits on economic activity they impose.

We sent more than 100 billion last year. we have ear-marked more than 100 billion this year. to put it into perspective we could have built the fucking wall more than 5 times with that. we could have paid down some of the national debt. we could have invested it in any number of domestic projects that desperately need attention and funding. be grateful that the US is as generous with its citizen's money as it is. the idea that 100s of billions of dollars is nothing is insulting.

 

[Marduk]

Yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the war has fucked over European access to critical commodities and as a consequence of that is seeing the hollowing out of the European industrial base as it relocates out of Europe and it won't be coming back in future.

But was it the war, or was it decades of policy that despite countless warnings of making said industry vulnerable to any disturbances in gas supply or pricing, like said war? It's not like the policy was a great idea all around, or the war or similar event happening eventually for this or that reason was something no one could possibly predict - on the contrary, it was always something that was bound to happen sooner or later by chance.

Also, European? Varies by country a lot. Germany and few others screwed the pooch on this with its grand virtue signalling plans, others not so much, and then goes the other question, if European countries really wanted to have an industrial base to stay and even grow, they would be doing a lot of things differently, so, do they even mind really?
No harm done to the willing anyone?

We sent more than 100 billion last year. we have ear-marked more than 100 billion this year. to put it into perspective we could have built the fucking wall more than 5 times with that. we could have paid down some of the national debt. we could have invested it in any number of domestic projects that desperately need attention and funding. be grateful that the US is as generous with its citizen's money as it is. the idea that 100s of billions of dollars is nothing is insulting.

My point exactly.

Climate Change Became the Largest Part of Biden Spending Bill (Published 2021)

As paid family leave and other priorities were taken out of the president’s plan, the largest piece became a $555 billion plan to fight climate change.

www.nytimes.com

Random "climate change framework" bill that didn't get a fraction of the attention from the "but Ukraine support is expensive!" crowd took multiples of that.
Ukraine support helps achieve geostrategic objectives regarding Russia, a rather major state generally considered as an opponent in strategic terms.
Several times as much on "green policy" is just stupid virtue signalling, why does it get less attention even from people who supposedly hate said virtue signalling.
The obvious conclusion is that the amount of money spent is not their real gripe here.

As for the wall, we all know money was never the real showstopper. Certain major political factions wouldn't want it even if it would cost 5 bucks.
Interesting issue to bring here, as this kind of complaining does look exactly like a different application of the "we totally don't want the wall built because its expensive, not because of other reasons, trust me bro!" song and dance.

 

[Blasterbot]

My point exactly.

Climate Change Became the Largest Part of Biden Spending Bill (Published 2021)

As paid family leave and other priorities were taken out of the president’s plan, the largest piece became a $555 billion plan to fight climate change.

www.nytimes.com

Random "climate change framework" bill that didn't get a fraction of the attention from the "but Ukraine support is expensive!" crowd took multiples of that.
Ukraine support helps achieve geostrategic objectives regarding Russia, a rather major state generally considered as an opponent in strategic terms.
Several times as much on "green policy" is just stupid virtue signalling, why does it get less attention even from people who supposedly hate said virtue signalling.
The obvious conclusion is that the amount of money spent is not their real gripe here.

As for the wall, we all know money was never the real showstopper. Certain major political factions wouldn't want it even if it would cost 5 bucks.

dude most of the people who say that giving 100s of billions of dollars to Ukraine is too much are also in the camp that the climate shit is an inefficient waste. Ukraine stuff is a hot button issue that gets talked about way more so they bring up their response to it way more. it is like expecting people to talk about something else right after a school shooting. people talk about what gets put in front of them and like it or not the Ukraine war is constantly talked about.

 

[Marduk]

dude most of the people who say that giving 100s of billions of dollars to Ukraine is too much are also in the camp that the climate shit is an inefficient waste. Ukraine stuff is a hot button issue that gets talked about way more so they bring up their response to it way more. it is like expecting people to talk about something else right after a school shooting. people talk about what gets put in front of them and like it or not the Ukraine war is constantly talked about.

So, the implication is that media attention is what really dictates what these people get their tactical fiscal conservatism aimed at, as opposed to the obvious issue of raw number of billions being supposedly wasted. Quite disappointing behavior coming from people who pride themselves on not being led by the nose by mainstream media.
In effect the media and their allies get their objective - they get the malcontents angry at a spending item that's relatively small and defensible, instead of the one that is bigger and harder to justify.