Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Bacle]

here's the problem, Putin (and thus anyone who maters in Russia) honestly and truly believes that the US broke the deal first. you can argue that he's wrong until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that Putin does not see himself/ Russia as the aggressors.

No, Putin never intended to abide by it to begin with, as the article says.

Yeltsin didn't get the Budapest Memorandum through the Duma, so Putin claimed he would not honor it or abide by it.

Thus, the idea that 'the west broke it first' is a complete fabrication and just another bit of Russian spin.

 

[Agent23]

 

[Megadeath]

That'd be the guy who said after the 2014 annexation of Crimea that Russia wouldn't go after the rest of Ukraine? That it was wrong to think of them as having imperial ambitions?

I guess I shouldn't be surprised an idiot who was claiming right up to the day of invasion that Russia would never attack because they said so would appreciate a fellow traveller. And oh look, the low effort, biased propaganda spewing cretin doesn't even bother with a tl;dw for whatever hot take currently supports his position.

 

[Agent23]

A few key "hot" takes:
For Putin and his circle this is a defensive war.
People love pulling what Putin says out of context to ree and have epileptic-like seizures.
Putin tried hard to get the Minsk accords to work.
The USA's red lines towards other great powers doing stuff in Latin America are very similar to those that Russia has towards NATO encroachment.
USA is a crusader state pushing liberalism, but there is not such need in China.
Even when it works on the basis of realism/self-interest the USA uses liberalism and 'muh freedom' as camouflage.

 

[Marduk]

Exclusive: A look at the trio who convinced Putin to invade

The circle of those around the Russian dictator played a significant role in the fact that he launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Now Putin's

english.nv.ua

"As far as I know, Kovalchuk is an absolutely cynical person, thinking only about money," he said.

"He saw in Ukraine a potentially infinite amount of what can be plundered, that is, military booty. In Russia, everything has long been divided by Putin's inner circle, you can no longer squeeze out large new pieces. And Ukraine in this sense is like the Klondike."

Kovalchuk allegedly realized that Bortnikov and Patrushev would persuade Putin to launch a full-scale invasion and decided to take part. At the same time, the oligarch decided that in comparison with other billionaires close to the dictator — the Rotenberg brothers and Gennady Timchenko — he, as the person who first took a patriotic position, would have the right to choose the sweetest pillage.

 

[Agent23]

Exclusive: A look at the trio who convinced Putin to invade

The circle of those around the Russian dictator played a significant role in the fact that he launched a full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Now Putin's

english.nv.ua

>Constantly complains about my sources.
>Posts some obvious Ukrainian propaganda rag that looks like a copycat of a famous former CIA funded US propaganda outlet.

Just more proof that of you did not have double standards you'd have none I guess.

Quick reminder, prior to 2014, the main destination for Ukrainian gasterbaiters was Russia.

Ukrainians in Russia - Wikipedia

As of September 2015, there were 2.6 million Ukrainians living in Russia, more than half of them "guest workers". A million more had arrived in the previous eighteen months[15] (although critics have accused the FMS and media of circulating exaggerated figures[16][17]). About 400,000 had applied for refugee status and almost 300,000 had asked for temporary residence status, with another 600,000 considered to be in breach of migration rules

Ukraine pre-war was actually even more corrupt than Russia was, and they did not have the natural resources of Russia.

This is some grade a cope.

 

[Marduk]

>Constantly complains about my sources.
>Posts some obvious Ukrainian propaganda rag that looks like a copycat of a famous former CIA funded US propaganda outlet.

Your sources say bullshit, and your standard of filtering them is that they say bullshit you personally agree with, hence they suck.
Some niche before Russia simps spammed him around the interned solely on account of agreeing with them US professor included.

If you actually read it, you would notice that they refer a Times investigation.

Speaking of, another reason to believe it is that Kovalchuk already made bank once on Russian landgrabs in Ukraine.

How Putin’s Friends “Bought Out” Occupied Crimea

IStories has made a list of the top 10 participants of Crimea’s privatization: Yuri Kovalchuk, Arkady Rotenberg and Konstantin Malofeev are among them

istories.media

Just more proof that of you did not have double standards you'd have none I guess.

For one i know what's your standard, if it simps for Russia, its government or its interests, you're gonna shill it

>whines about my source being some propaganda rag
>his source to some youtube channel with 70k subs showing off an interview with one of the most shilled Russia excusers
That's several times less than most niche youtubers popular around here, even infamous in these topics lazerpig has several times more. That's less than a rag, that's a speck of dust.

Quick reminder, prior to 2014, the main destination for Ukrainian gasterbaiters was Russia.

Ukrainians in Russia - Wikipedia

What kind of bullshit argument is that supposed to be. Yeah, Europe had more immigration restrictions in that direction, and attempts to change that by closer relations with the EU... well you know what they resulted in.

Ukraine pre-war was actually even more corrupt than Russia was, and they did not have the natural resources of Russia.

Yeah, being bossed around by Russian corruptocracy's pals with its support sucks, that's why Ukrainians started to kick them out, to much outrage of Russian corruptocrats and their western simps.
Once they start cutting Russian connections, by some mysterious connection corruption also starts to fall...

This is some grade a cope.

This is some grade A premium artistic bullshitry.

 

[Agent23]

Your sources say bullshit, and your standard of filtering them is that they say bullshit you personally agree with, hence they suck.
Some niche before Russia simps spammed him around the interned solely on account of agreeing with them US professor included.

If Wikipedia is bullshit, so why have you quoted it before?

If you actually read it, you would notice that they refer a Times investigation.

You mean another British publication that has been strongly pro-Ukraine?

Speaking of, another reason to believe it is that Kovalchuk already made bank once on Russian landgrabs in Ukraine.

How Putin’s Friends “Bought Out” Occupied Crimea

IStories has made a list of the top 10 participants of Crimea’s privatization: Yuri Kovalchuk, Arkady Rotenberg and Konstantin Malofeev are among them

istories.media

Yeah, knowing you this is just the first thing that popped up after you googled what's his name, Ukraine, corruption, or whatever.

For one i know what's your standard, if it simps for Russia, its government or its interests, you're gonna shill it

>whines about my source being some propaganda rag
>His source to some youtube channel with 70k subs showing off an interview with one of the most shilled Russia excusers
That's several times less than most niche youtubers popular around here, even infamous in these topics lazerpig has several times more. That's less than a rag, that's a speck of dust.

What kind of bullshit argument is that supposed to be. Yeah, Europe had more immigration restrictions in that direction, and attempts to change that by closer relations with the EU... well you know what they resulted in.

If people from county A go to country B to be gasterbaiters IN THE MILLIONS, country A IS LOGICALLY THE POORER PLACE.
Whatabourism rejected.

Yeah, being bossed around by Russian corruptocracy's pals with its support sucks, that's why Ukrainians started to kick them out, to much outrage of Russian corruptocrats and their western simps.
Once they start cutting Russian connections, by some mysterious connection corruption also starts to fall...

Blah, blah, yadda, yadda, Russia Evil.
Broken record mode, again.

This is some grade A premium artistic bullshitry.

Stop talking about yourself, damn it.

 

[Marduk]

If Wikipedia is bullshit, so why have you quoted it before?

The fuck does wikipedia have to do with it?

You mean another British publication that has been strongly pro-Ukraine?

So fucking what? Of course anti-Ukraine publications will never say it even if it's true.

Yeah, knowing you this is just the first thing that popped up after you googled what's his name, Ukraine, corruption, or whatever.

Wrong guess, and not important, congratulation on inventing something as pointless as search engine argument.

If people from county A go to country B to be gasterbaiters IN THE MILLIONS, country A IS LOGICALLY THE POORER PLACE.
Whatabourism rejected.

So that was your point? That Ukraine is poorer than Russia? Could have just looked at the GDP per capita table. After all, no oil, and their thieves had even less restrictions there. Now all these people Russia simps complain about kicked them out.. Oh the poor(er than before) Medvedchuk...

Blah, blah, yadda, yadda, Russia Evil.

Chad yes.

Stop talking about yourself, damn it.

Go find a kindergarten to act childish in like that or something.

 

[ATP]

here's the problem, Putin (and thus anyone who maters in Russia) honestly and truly believes that the US broke the deal first. you can argue that he's wrong until you're blue in the face, but it won't change the fact that Putin does not see himself/ Russia as the aggressors.

First,Russia were murdered by soviets.Second,neosoviets do not belive in anytching except their right to rule ove everytching they could grab.If they grab Ukraine,they would want Poland.Gave them us,they would want germany.And follow pattern till entire Earth would be theirs.

 

[Zyobot]

Ukraine downs Russian hypersonic 'dagger' with US Patriot missile defense system

Ukraine has announced that it used US's air defense system Patriot to effectively intercept a Russian hypersonic missile for the first time.

interestingengineering.com

Link archived here, for purposes of preservation.

 

[DarthOne]

First,Russia were murdered by soviets.Second,neosoviets do not belive in anytching except their right to rule ove everytching they could grab.If they grab Ukraine,they would want Poland.Gave them us,they would want germany.And follow pattern till entire Earth would be theirs.

Yes, yes. Everything is about Poland, Poland is center of the universe, sure, sure…

 

[Zyobot]

Yes, yes. Everything is about Poland, Poland is center of the universe, sure, sure…

Frankly, that's how most Polish members here act in my experience.

At least with the US, acting like it's the center of the universe is more "justifiable", given that it's the current global hegemon and remains miles ahead of the next-strongest players (such as Russia, China, and India) in terms of wealth and worldwide power projection.

 

[Zachowon]

Poland is the bastion of conservative values in Europe.
That wht

 

[DarthOne]

Poland is the bastion of conservative values in Europe.
That wht

Are we not counting Russia as conservative or not as European? Or is this due to their bizarre love/hate relationship with the USSR?

 

[Marduk]

Are we not counting Russia as conservative or not as European? Or is this due to their bizarre love/hate relationship with the USSR?

Half of Russia is in Asia...
And as for the conservatism, check out their abortion and HIV rates.

 

[King Arts]

Half of Russia is in Asia...
And as for the conservatism, check out their abortion and HIV rates.

It having Asian territory is not relevant the important parts of Russia Saint Petersburg Moscow etc are in Europe. It’s like calling the British Asian in the 1800s because they had India as a territory.

The second point though is valid.

 

[Morphic Tide]

Thus, the idea that 'the west broke it first' is a complete fabrication

No, even without arguments about the regime change in 2014 being a Glowop we still have very clear documentation of pulling bullshit with foreign aid in ways that rather unambiguously violate the autonomy guarantees. Unless you can show Ukraine's previous "puppet regime" being demonstrably built upon Russian meddling in internal affairs instead of Soviet Bloc inertia, the sizable chunk of the country that was Russian in living memory, or otherwise "natural", it very much was the West violating the terms first.

I will not ever let you forget that NATO has gone out of its way to pen Russia in as much as remotely possible with no legitimate reason for it and basic geopolitical reality says that buffer states are there for a reason. Russia may have shot first, but they are far from the initial aggressor in the wider picture.

 

[Zachowon]

No, even without arguments about the regime change in 2014 being a Glowop we still have very clear documentation of pulling bullshit with foreign aid in ways that rather unambiguously violate the autonomy guarantees. Unless you can show Ukraine's previous "puppet regime" being demonstrably built upon Russian meddling in internal affairs instead of Soviet Bloc inertia, the sizable chunk of the country that was Russian in living memory, or otherwise "natural", it very much was the West violating the terms first.

I will not ever let you forget that NATO has gone out of its way to pen Russia in as much as remotely possible with no legitimate reason for it and basic geopolitical reality says that buffer states are there for a reason. Russia may have shot first, but they are far from the initial aggressor in the wider picture.

Poland and the rest of the Baltic states disagree with you

 

[Morphic Tide]

Poland and the rest of the Baltic states disagree with you

They are not NATO, declared in treaty allies of any NATO nation, or otherwise NATO responsibility. It is entirely "Global Police" bullshit that will cause World War 3 if it is not brutally shut down on "our" side, just like the secret alliances dragged Europe into the culture-shattering bloodbath of the first. Ukraine is not our fucking problem, plain and simple.