Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[ATP]

Amigo. From the Balkan perspective a Jagiellonian is just as much of a threat as a Mokholi, a Suleiman or Charles Martel himself. By your metric Poland doesn't deserve to exist either. Seeing as it was German armies that forced the Russians to release you. Or if you want we can go all the way back to Ruthenia and Silesia.

Nope,it was Allies who made us free in Versail.Germans would keep us as puppet state.They released fake ukrainian and lithuanian states/becouse such nations do not existed yet/ but not Poland.Becouse we arleady were nation.

And,you completly missed a point.Polish nation exist as gentry nation from 13th century,later townspeoiple joined,and after 1880 farmers and workers,too.
So,in 1914 we have polish nation.

Ukrainians? there were elites created by austrians to counter us,but average farmer considered himself as local or russian.
That is why Warsaw in 1920 was defended against soviets,and Kiev was not.
Becouse people there mainly do not considered themselves as ukrainians.


Sure,it changed later,and now we have ukrainian nation - but,if we talking about 1914,russians could not genocide ukrainians,becouse such nation do not existed yet.

 

[Bacle]

 

[Bacle]

Good, the sooner more Russian collaborators in Ukraine are eliminated, the easier reclaiming Crimea and the Donbas will be.

Edit: Oh, and would you look at that, orcs using the ZNPP roof's as firing positions, despite having promised to not use nuke plants as combat positions.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Good, the sooner more Russian collaborators in Ukraine are eliminated, the easier reclaiming Crimea and the Donbas will be.

Edit: Oh, and would you look at that, orcs using the ZNPP roof's as firing positions, despite having promised to not use nuke plants as combat positions.

Ukraine will never get donbass and crimea back. Get over it. Your levels of delusion and spite are reaching neocon levels.

 

[The Whispering Monk]

Ukraine will never get donbass and crimea back. Get over it. Your levels of delusion and spite are reaching neocon levels.

And people said Ukraine would fall in 3 days.
I don't think we've seen the end of this at all, and I have a gut feeling that we've not seen the worst of Russia's stupidity yet either.

 

[ATP]

Ukraine will never get donbass and crimea back. Get over it. Your levels of delusion and spite are reaching neocon levels.

Depend on USA.If they send tank and planes,Ukraine would reclaim everytching.If they keep sending old stuff,then you are right.
Remember,that USA supported soviet invasion there initially - they offered part of Ukraine,and tried to remove Zelensky from Kiev.Only when soviets failed to win,they started sending old stuff.

And people said Ukraine would fall in 3 days.
I don't think we've seen the end of this at all, and I have a gut feeling that we've not seen the worst of Russia's stupidity yet either.

Yep.Soviets would win if they were lead by me,who is ignorant in military matters.
But - it could be still feint.Secret soviet army in hidden cities just wait for RIGHT HOUR.
And,i am not joking here.They really do not care how many their orcs die,so they could wait for sometching.

 

[Marduk]

Ukraine will never get donbass and crimea back. Get over it. Your levels of delusion and spite are reaching neocon levels.

Of course they won't get them, they will have to take them if anything.

 

[Bacle]

Ukraine will never get donbass and crimea back. Get over it. Your levels of delusion and spite are reaching neocon levels.

Said the WN/WS vatnik; Ukraine will get/take those territories back, it's just a question of how long is needed to do so.

Russia will not be allowed to keep the lands they are attempting to steal, and people like you will forever be known as Vatniks and Putin supports to be treated like pariahs forever more.

 

[Cherico]

Said the WN/WS vatnik; Ukraine will get/take those territories back, it's just a question of how long is needed to do so.

Russia will not be allowed to keep the lands they are attempting to steal, and people like you will forever be known as Vatniks and Putin supports to be treated like pariahs forever more.

I think this war is still way too early to call.

Russia has more people, and a lot of material to pull from, if this becomes a war of attrition Russia wins because they can simply grind Ukraine down into nothing. Only way Ukraine wins is to turn this into a war of manuver and we will see if that's the case this may.

 

[Bacle]

I think this war is still way too early to call.

Russia has more people, and a lot of material to pull from, if this becomes a war of attrition Russia wins because they can simply grind Ukraine down into nothing. Only way Ukraine wins is to turn this into a war of manuver and we will see if that's the case this may.

No, this war isn't too early to call, not unless some people want to have another fight 8-10 years from now when Russia tries again for anything they don't get now.

The problem right now is that there are parts of the establishment who are worried that a 'patriotic rebound' effect in Russia could occur if we give Ukraine the ability to remove the Russians from their lands too fast, before discontent in Russia has removed Putin and soured the general Russian public on the war.

I understand the logic of a slow grind to try to make internal changes happen in Russia that could see a new leader in place, one that may be willing to remove Russian troops from Ukraine's lands, without a grinding fight to the border or Russian troops being routed/destroyed in detailed.

So, even leaving aside how much of Russia's shit is even servicable and not been stripped for scrap/black market parts (something Ziehan never seems to consider while Perun does), and how this is also restarting a lot of idle arms production in the west, this is not Russia's war to lose or win, this is Ukraine's war to win fast, or win slow.

Right now the leaders of the west, outside Zelensky and the Baltics, seem to be doing the 'win slow' approach to avoid a Russian 'patriotic rebound' effect, in how they are slow walking/drip-feeding munitions to Ukraine.

Personally, I think the 'win fast; approach would be better, because it costs fewer Ukrainian lives and would actually make the Russian people feel the sting of defeat, not just 'withdrawal', and maybe get the next leader of Russia to realize it is not more than a regional power anymore, and is effectively just a large CCP resource colony going forward.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Said the WN/WS vatnik; Ukraine will get/take those territories back, it's just a question of how long is needed to do so.

Russia will not be allowed to keep the lands they are attempting to steal, and people like you will forever be known as Vatniks and Putin supports to be treated like pariahs forever more.

Yeah sure buddy.

How precisely are they going to retake these territorities? with what equipment? The russians have more of everything now, and that advantage is growing. Now that the Ukrainians are finally running out of SAMs we are even seeing more and more Russian air power in play.

This isnt the late summer and fall of 2022 when Russia had a manpower crisis and left kharkov with a skeleton garrison, or Kherson where the russian logistics were supported by a couple of vulnerable bridges.

We are reaching levels of delusion here beyond sanity.

 

[Bacle]

We are reaching levels of delusion here beyond sanity.

Yes, I know you are, this is very evident in your vatnik takes.

It is very obvious from the way you are taking Russian propaganda at face value and ignoring the mounting evidence of dysfunction and lack of supply on the Russian side.

Or does Russia needing to lean on Iran and North Korea, for shit they should be able to do domestically, not seem to have penetrated your idiocy enough to register.

Nah, there is a reason you don't come by the actual war college threads much, wouldn't want to see evidence you are very wrong.

 

[Marduk]

Yeah sure buddy.

How precisely are they going to retake these territorities? with what equipment? The russians have more of everything now, and that advantage is growing. Now that the Ukrainians are finally running out of SAMs we are even seeing more and more Russian air power in play.

This isnt the late summer and fall of 2022 when Russia had a manpower crisis and left kharkov with a skeleton garrison, or Kherson where the russian logistics were supported by a couple of vulnerable bridges.

We are reaching levels of delusion here beyond sanity.

>more of everything
Stop roleplaying as a bureaucrat and stop talking about shit you have no idea about and extolling the power of second rate reserve T-55's and T-62's that Russia is bringing to the front, because surely all comrades agree that a tank is a tank and they are equal because battlefield is a people's democracy.
Quality matters. Ukraine is not desperately throwing the western heavy equipment to the frontline, if you haven't noticed. They are holding the front mostly with the stuff they got earlier.
When combat videos with M1's, Leopards, Bradleys and Marders show up, then you will know that they are doing it, and what they are doing it with.

SAMs are a separate problem, obviously you don't retake territories with SAMs of all things, it's a worry to increase western SAM delivery schedule.

 

[Cherico]

No, this war isn't too early to call, not unless some people want to have another fight 8-10 years from now when Russia tries again for anything they don't get now.

The problem right now is that there are parts of the establishment who are worried that a 'patriotic rebound' effect in Russia could occur if we give Ukraine the ability to remove the Russians from their lands too fast, before discontent in Russia has removed Putin and soured the general Russian public on the war.

I understand the logic of a slow grind to try to make internal changes happen in Russia that could see a new leader in place, one that may be willing to remove Russian troops from Ukraine's lands, without a grinding fight to the border or Russian troops being routed/destroyed in detailed.

So, even leaving aside how much of Russia's shit is even servicable and not been stripped for scrap/black market parts (something Ziehan never seems to consider while Perun does), and how this is also restarting a lot of idle arms production in the west, this is not Russia's war to lose or win, this is Ukraine's war to win fast, or win slow.

Right now the leaders of the west, outside Zelensky and the Baltics, seem to be doing the 'win slow' approach to avoid a Russian 'patriotic rebound' effect, in how they are slow walking/drip-feeding munitions to Ukraine.

Personally, I think the 'win fast; approach would be better, because it costs fewer Ukrainian lives and would actually make the Russian people feel the sting of defeat, not just 'withdrawal', and maybe get the next leader of Russia to realize it is not more than a regional power anymore, and is effectively just a large CCP resource colony going forward.

Honestly I hope your right but Russia has won wars like these before with even larger causalitys even worse leadership by shear dint of numbers before. If their willing to pay the butcher's bill then there is still a possibility they can win.

Far as I'm concerned it's too early to tell

 

[ATP]

Said the WN/WS vatnik; Ukraine will get/take those territories back, it's just a question of how long is needed to do so.

Russia will not be allowed to keep the lands they are attempting to steal, and people like you will forever be known as Vatniks and Putin supports to be treated like pariahs forever more.

Optymist.If USA supported Ukraine it would be right.But remember - we have:
1.Biden in 2021 agreed to open NS2,giving Moscov money for war,and green light for invasion
2.During 2021 talk,they wanted gave Moscov Europe for support against China.Thanks God,Putin refused.
3. 19.2.2022,5 days before war,Biden openly said that small war mean small sanctions - which mean,that gave Moscov part of Ukraine ten,and rest in pieces later.
4.Biden send plane to take Zelensky to USA - which would lead to Moscov victory.
5.Initially all they send was old AT and AA missiles,which would be scrapped anyway.Later old armored transports and field artillery.
Till now,all modern stuff send there are drones and some ammo,when HIMARS,tanks and Bradleys are semi-modern at best.

If USA wanted Ukraine victory,they would send more HIMARS,and tanks from the start.Planes,too.

But all they want is deal with Moscov.Fools.You do not made deals with them,only fight or surrender and become serf.

 

[LordsFire]

We are reaching levels of delusion here beyond sanity.

I understand that Agent23 is personally monetarily invested in Russia, and that History Learner is actually clinically insane.

I even have some sympathy for people who want America to not be sending its treasure to support the war for various reasons, even if I think it is misguided.

You though, I have no idea why you have chosen to buy whole-heartedly into Russian propaganda.

Are you Russian yourself?

Do you have so little idea how war works that you do not understand that the conditions on the ground are, at best for the Russians, a stalemate?

Is it something else?

Why do you think Russia is winning when it hasn't made any substantial gains since... what, about this time last year, while suffering multiple serious reversals?

 

[Bacle]

Honestly I hope your right but Russia has won wars like these before with even larger causalitys even worse leadership by shear dint of numbers before. If their willing to pay the butcher's bill then there is still a possibility they can win.

Far as I'm concerned it's too early to tell

Fair, and in a vacuum Russia's military history is intimidating and makes people overestimate them routinely.

The reason I feel safe saying this is either going to be a slow or fast victory for Ukraine is because Russia hasn't faced an opponent with open and growing NATO backing, as well as an opponent who is able to isolate their supply chains the way US sanctions have.

Remember, the Red Army was only intimidating and able to march on Berlin because of US trucks, rail road engines, and general Lend-Lease stuff doing the logistics work the Red Army couldn't make/do itself.

This time, the Russians are on the other end of the US/Western Lend-Lease power, and the Westerns powers are gearing up to make do without Russian goods for the long term, so even the end of this conflict is very unlikely to see relations with Russia normalize quickly, possibly even within our life-times, depending on what happens in Russia itself after they lose and withdraw.

 

[Zachowon]

Western SAMs better then Russian

 

[Cherico]

Fair, and in a vacuum Russia's military history is intimidating and makes people overestimate them routinely.

The reason I feel safe saying this is either going to be a slow or fast victory for Ukraine is because Russia hasn't faced an opponent with open and growing NATO backing, as well as an opponent who is able to isolate their supply chains the way US sanctions have.

Remember, the Red Army was only intimidating and able to march on Berlin because of US trucks, rail road engines, and general Lend-Lease stuff doing the logistics work the Red Army couldn't make/do itself.

This time, the Russians are on the other end of the US/Western Lend-Lease power, and the Westerns powers are gearing up to make do without Russian goods for the long term, so even the end of this conflict is very unlikely to see relations with Russia normalize quickly, possibly even within our life-times, depending on what happens in Russia itself after they lose and withdraw.

thing is history shows that its often hilariously lethal to under estimate the Russians.

They might be a degraded power but you shouldn't count them out until their actually out.

 

[Blasterbot]

thing is history shows that its often hilariously lethal to under estimate the Russians.

They might be a degraded power but you shouldn't count them out until their actually out.

never underestimate how many bodies they are willing to throw at a problem till it goes away.