Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[DarthOne]

Well, there was that Russia/winter debacle which fucked him over so badly it was the first domino in his decline.

No; that would be his kerfuffle in Spain. Which was caused when he decided to stick his own puppet ruler on the throne. Spain was a wound that refused to close.

 

[King Arts]

Arranging things so that you fight as often as possible with the advantage doesn't make you a less impressive leader, it makes you a smart one. Also, Alexander didn't exactly start out with a massive empire. Napoleon is often over rated, with a lack luster record on and off the battlefield. Even compared to contemporaries, such as the Duke of Wellington, who whooped his record and beat him directly.

Who said anything about advantages?

Also let's make a lower comparison since you seem to argue braindead takes. A leader who does more with less resources is better than one that did the same with more resources.

In other words just because you beat or kill someone does not mean you are stronger.
For example let's say a weak overweight guy poisoned a special forces bad ass soldier and then killed him while he was crippled. Is the fat guy a tougher guy than the special forces guy? You know if they ever met on a battlefield 9/10 special forces guy would kill him.

A leader who ended up in a good position where he wins because his nation was stronger might do worse than one that lost his war because his nation literally could not compete against the weight level of their enemy.
Are you going to say Hannibal is a worse general than some Soviet officer that just sent men at the enemy, or Haig on the British side just because they won the war while Carthage lost? Thats stupid logic it's obviously wrong.

 

[Jormungandr]

No; that would be his kerfuffle in Spain. Which was caused when he decided to stick his own puppet ruler on the throne. Spain was a wound that refused to close.

Ah yes, I forgot about that little venture and the Peninsula War.

 

[Megadeath]

Who said anything about advantages?

Also let's make a lower comparison since you seem to argue braindead takes. A leader who does more with less resources is better than one that did the same with more resources.

In other words just because you beat or kill someone does not mean you are stronger.
For example let's say a weak overweight guy poisoned a special forces bad ass soldier and then killed him while he was crippled. Is the fat guy a tougher guy than the special forces guy? You know if they ever met on a battlefield 9/10 special forces guy would kill him.

A leader who ended up in a good position where he wins because his nation was stronger might do worse than one that lost his war because his nation literally could not compete against the weight level of their enemy.
Are you going to say Hannibal is a worse general than some Soviet officer that just sent men at the enemy, or Haig on the British side just because they won the war while Carthage lost? Thats stupid logic it's obviously wrong.

Uh huh... And Napoleon started with the resources of France, one of the top 2-3 countries of Europe, and therefore the world at the time. He ended up not even ruling St Helena. Alexander started with Macedon, a nation comparable to a dozen of it's local neighbours. He ended up dying whilst still pushing out the know borders of the world looking for new places to conquer.

Give me again your brain dead take, on how Napoleon did "more with less"?

 

[Cherico]

Uh huh... And Napoleon started with the resources of France, one of the top 2-3 countries of Europe, and therefore the world at the time. He ended up not even ruling St Helena. Alexander started with Macedon, a nation comparable to a dozen of it's local neighbours. He ended up dying whilst still pushing out the know borders of the world looking for new places to conquer.

Give me again your brain dead take, on how Napoleon did "more with less"?

Well even a broken clock is right twice a day, this is that time of day.

Fact is Alexander the great was simply that much of a badass chad, which is why every two bit idiot tin pot dictator has delusions of being the next Alexander with out any of the understanding of how he accomplished any of those tasks. Getting back to topic the number of Russian disasters caused by leadership with ego issues is legion.

 

[King Arts]

Uh huh... And Napoleon started with the resources of France, one of the top 2-3 countries of Europe, and therefore the world at the time. He ended up not even ruling St Helena. Alexander started with Macedon, a nation comparable to a dozen of it's local neighbours. He ended up dying whilst still pushing out the know borders of the world looking for new places to conquer.

Give me again your brain dead take, on how Napoleon did "more with less"?

Are you incapable of reading what I was actually saying or just refusing to do so? I was not comparing Alexander and Napoleon, but we could.

First France may have been one of the top nations but here is the thing it was also fighting at least 3 other top nations at the same time. Even the worlds best fighter will be in big trouble if he has to fight the second and third best at the same time.

As for Alexander and Macedon no Macedon was not a nation comparable to a dozen of it's local neighbors Phillip actually modernized and made a strong army for the nation that was able to be stronger than the other Greeks, also the Greek Phalanax was a superior method of fighting compared to Persian methods, qualitatively superior.

I also never said Napoleon did more with less, I was just saying that you can't look at generals and see if they won or lost the war to see if they are better than each other. Yes it's the first place to look but it isn't determanitive. It's like looking at K/D ratios it might indicate something but look at America getting it's ass handed to it in Vietnam and Afghanistan America lost those wars.

I might concede that Alexander was a better general than Napoleon he probably was. Though he was a worse leader as he only cared for the nation in the present he literally allowed his empire to split into warlords after his death. It might have been impossible to secure power for his son on a short time frame before his death but he definitely did not have to make it worse by saying "to the strongest" when asked who should rule his empire.

 

[Megadeath]

Are you incapable of reading what I was actually saying or just refusing to do so? I was not comparing Alexander and Napoleon, but we could.

First France may have been one of the top nations but here is the thing it was also fighting at least 3 other top nations at the same time. Even the worlds best fighter will be in big trouble if he has to fight the second and third best at the same time.

As for Alexander and Macedon no Macedon was not a nation comparable to a dozen of it's local neighbors Phillip actually modernized and made a strong army for the nation that was able to be stronger than the other Greeks, also the Greek Phalanax was a superior method of fighting compared to Persian methods, qualitatively superior.

I also never said Napoleon did more with less, I was just saying that you can't look at generals and see if they won or lost the war to see if they are better than each other. Yes it's the first place to look but it isn't determanitive. It's like looking at K/D ratios it might indicate something but look at America getting it's ass handed to it in Vietnam and Afghanistan America lost those wars.

I might concede that Alexander was a better general than Napoleon he probably was. Though he was a worse leader as he only cared for the nation in the present he literally allowed his empire to split into warlords after his death. It might have been impossible to secure power for his son on a short time frame before his death but he definitely did not have to make it worse by saying "to the strongest" when asked who should rule his empire.

Eh... Fair. I guess my angle of debate was coloured by mentally conflating your response with some others. I might quibble some about your 3rd paragraph, but there's no point arguing semantics of minor details of an already over explored tangent. Generally agree with the majority of that post.

 

[King Arts]

Eh... Fair. I guess my angle of debate was coloured by mentally conflating your response with some others. I might quibble some about your 3rd paragraph, but there's no point arguing semantics of minor details of an already over explored tangent. Generally agree with the majority of that post.

Oh yeah no problem I have that problem too where I forget who said what in a thread.

 

[Bacle]

According to the superseding indictment returned in the Middle District of Florida, Aleksandr Viktorovich Ionov, a resident of Moscow, was the founder and president of the Anti-Globalization Movement of Russia (AGMR), an organization headquartered in Moscow, Russia, and funded by the Russian government. Ionov allegedly utilized AGMR to carry out Russia's malign influence campaign. Ionov's influence efforts were allegedly directed and supervised by Moscow-based FSB officers, including indicted defendants Aleksey Borisovich Sukhodolov and Yegor Sergeyevich Popov.

"The prosecution of this criminal conduct is essential to protecting the American public when foreign governments seek to inject themselves into the American political process," said U.S. Attorney Roger B. Handberg for the Middle District of Florida. "We thank our partners at the FBI for their tireless investigation of these events and their commitment to ensure justice is done."

Among other illegal activities, the superseding indictment alleges that Ionov, Sukhodolov and Popov conspired to directly and substantially influence democratic elections in the United States by clandestinely funding and directing the political campaign of a particular candidate for local office in St. Petersburg, Florida, in 2019. For instance, the superseding indictment alleges that Popov expressly referred to this effort on behalf of the FSB as "our election campaign," and Ionov referring to the candidate as the "candidate whom we supervise." Ionov and Popov allegedly intended that this election interference plot would extend beyond the 2019 local election cycle in St. Petersburg, and subsequently discussed that the "USA Presidential election" was the FSB's "main topic of the year."

Moreover, from at least November 2014 until July 2022, Ionov allegedly engaged in a years-long foreign malign influence campaign targeting the United States. As a part of the campaign, Ionov allegedly recruited members of political groups within the United States, including the African People's Socialist Party and the Uhuru Movement (collectively, the APSP) in Florida, Black Hammer in Georgia and a political group in California (referred to in the superseding indictment as U.S. Political Group 3), to participate in the influence campaign and act as agents of Russia in the United States, including the following indicted defendants:

• Omali Yeshitela, a U.S. citizen residing in St. Petersburg, Florida, and St. Louis, Missouri, who served as the chairman and founder of the APSP;
• Penny Joanne Hess, a U.S. citizen residing in St. Petersburg, Florida, and St. Louis, Missouri, who served as the leader of a component of the APSP;
• Jesse Nevel, a U.S. citizen residing in St. Petersburg, Florida, and St. Louis, Missouri, who served as a member of a component of the APSP; and
• Augustus C. Romain Jr., aka Gazi Kodzo, a U.S. citizen residing in St. Petersburg, Florida, and Atlanta, who served as a leader of the APSP and a founder of Black Hammer in Georgia.

One focus of Ionov's alleged influence operation was to create the appearance of American popular support for Russia's annexation of territories in Ukraine. For example, in May 2020, Ionov allegedly sent a request he stated was from "Russia, the Donetsk People's Republic" – an apparent reference to a Russian-occupied region in eastern Ukraine – to Yeshitela and members of other U.S. political groups to make statements in support of the independence of the so-called Donetsk People's Republic, a Russian-backed breakaway state in eastern Ukraine. Ionov later allegedly touted to the FSB that Yeshitela's video-recorded statement of support was the first time that "American nonprofit organizations congratulated citizens" of the occupied region.

So the FSB tried ot recruit some Black Hammer and "African People's Social Party" folks in Florida, and began trying to get access/involved with at least one political race in Florida and elsewhere.

Effort was focused on trying to find people to speak out in support of their invasion, as much as mess with political races.

 

[mrttao]

So the FSB tried ot recruit some Black Hammer and "African People's Social Party" folks in Florida, and began trying to get access/involved with at least one political race in Florida and elsewhere.

Effort was focused on trying to find people to speak out in support of their invasion, as much as mess with political races.

> Justice department says
Can't trust those fuckers.

Also the comments are basically all "durr trump russian collusions"

 

[Bacle]

> Justice department says
Can't trust those fuckers.
Also the comments are basically all "durr trump russian collusions"

Eh, they have direct documentation of these guys getting directions from Moscow and them attempting to mess with at least one political race in Florida.

Plus, would not be the first time Black Hammer folks did something stupid; remember their attempt to 'liberate' a few hundred arces of land to start a commune in western CO a couple years back?

 

[mrttao]

Eh, they have direct documentation

So they claim.

Remember when they had direct documentation of Trump "inciting" the Jan 6 protest.

Which, when they put him on a congressional trial for that turned out to have been faked evidence. Whole case got dismissed on the basis of the prosecution doctoring evidence.

They are also a bunch of epstein pedophiles who are burying anything related to him.

So... maybe its true, maybe it isn't. Can't trust anything out of this illegitimate organization

 

[Bacle]

So they claim.

Remember when they had direct documentation of Trump "inciting" the Jan 6 protest.

Which, when they put him on a congressional trial for that turned out to have been faked evidence. Whole case got dismissed on the basis of the prosecution doctoring evidence.

They are also a bunch of epstein pedophiles who are burying anything related to him.

So... maybe its true, maybe it isn't. Can't trust anything out of this illegitimate organization

No, this is pretty much as legit as stuff like this can get, and Russia is very much willing to undertake these sorts of operations if they feel they can get away with it.

Also, it wasn't the DoJ who went after Trump for Jan 6th, even if their boss would have liked to (Garland knew none of the charges people pressured him to bring would stick), it was House Dems/Pelosi/Liz Cheney doing political theater.

 

[Captain X]

I support Ukraine and I still refuse to believe anything the DoJ says.

 

[mrttao]

No, this is pretty much as legit as stuff like this can get, and Russia is very much willing to undertake these sorts of operations if they feel they can get away with it.

Also, it wasn't the DoJ who went after Trump for Jan 6th, even if their boss would have liked to (Garland knew none of the charges people pressured him to bring would stick), it was House Dems/Pelosi/Liz Cheney doing political theater.

The DoJ is an arm of the democrat party. They are not separate entities.

 

[Bacle]

The DoJ is an arm of the democrat party. They are not separate entities.

It's less apolitical than it should be, yes.

However, I see no indications this is anything but a legit case of Russian operations on US soil being found and dealt with.

 

[mrttao]

However, I see no indications this is anything but a legit case of Russian operations on US soil being found and dealt with.

Did you actually investigate it yourself in any depth personally?
As far as I can tell you just looked at what the DoJ claims they have.

As I said. It might be true, it might be false. Who knows. They claim they have evidence, they could have fabricated it to take out political opponents. Or it could be real evidence.

An department of justice filled with criminals working for an illegitimate govt cannot be trusted.

 

[Bacle]

Did you actually investigate it yourself in any depth personally?
As far as I can tell you just looked at what the DoJ claims they have.

As I said. It might be true, it might be false. Who knows. They claim they have evidence, they could have fabricated it to take out political opponents. Or it could be real evidence.

An department of justice filled with criminals working for an illegitimate govt cannot be trusted.

Did you even read who the Russians were trying to support?

It was those Black Hammer folks, and the African People's Socialist Party; hardly right-wing groups, and frankly groups that are much farther Left than the majority of the Dems.

This wasn't faked at all.

 

[Captain X]

Maybe, but between it being DoJ, and claim of Russian interference with elections, I take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Terthna]

Did you even read who the Russians were trying to support?

It was those Black Hammer folks, and the African People's Socialist Party; hardly right-wing groups, and frankly groups that are much farther Left than the majority of the Dems.

This wasn't faked at all.

I'm open to the possibility; but so far, all I'm seeing here is allegations, not proof.