Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Zachowon]

Again why would they? For them it would be best for things to continue going as they are. It seems more likely they'd say fuck you to America for trying to cause a world war.

Well, then we leverage our Chinese hating partners, the Taiwanese, Koreans, and Japanese to say "either you sanction China or we stop trading".

It won't come down tk that because the world sees China as a threat.
But if it did. The US is closer to the biggest suppliers of tech outside of China then the rest of the world

 

[Bacle]

Let's just go all out.
Let's make war fucking happen.



The world follows the US

I don't think war is avoidable, I just want to make sure that WW3 isn't humanities LAST war.

I think we should exhaust every diplomatic and economic means to try to deter the CCP from helping Russia openly and formally with the invasion of Ukraine, before we push to the next level.

If the CCP decide to try to advance partition of Ukraine on the level of Xi at the UN or something close to that, then we move to the next level of market/sanction warfare and begin selling surplus but serviceable ships to the Taiwanese Navy.

We got a bunch of semi-servicable Tico's waiting around in mothballs/awaiting scrapping due to budget cuts/recruitment shortfalls, and well...there are bigger guns we could give Taiwan if the parties involved desired too.

 

[King Arts]

Well, then we leverage our Chinese hating partners, the Taiwanese, Koreans, and Japanese to say "either you sanction China or we stop trading".

It won't come down tk that because the world sees China as a threat.
But if it did. The US is closer to the biggest suppliers of tech outside of China then the rest of the world

This would probably work, I'm not sure. I'd have to see what percentage the US Taiwan, Korea, and Japan together beat China as the largest trade partner.

I don't think war is avoidable, I just want to make sure that WW3 isn't humanities LAST war.

I think we should exhaust every diplomatic and economic means to try to deter the CCP from helping Russia openly and formally with the invasion of Ukraine, before we push to the next level.

If the CCP decide to try to advance partition of Ukraine on the level of Xi at the UN or something close to that, then we move to the next level of market/sanction warfare and begin selling surplus but serviceable ships to the Taiwanese Navy.

We got a bunch of semi-servicable Tico's waiting around in mothballs/awaiting scrapping due to budget cuts/recruitment shortfalls, and well...there are bigger guns we could give Taiwan if the parties involved desired too.

You do realize that this is a huge escalation right? Us and the Soviets have used proxies through the entire cold war and you are acting like it's a new thing. Why not us vs the Chinese? Also what if they respond by threatening to give nuclear weapons to Iran or putting Iran under their umbrella?

 

[Zachowon]

This would probably work, I'm not sure. I'd have to see what percentage the US Taiwan, Korea, and Japan together beat China as the largest trade partner.


You do realize that this is a huge escalation right? Us and the Soviets have used proxies through the entire cold war and you are acting like it's a new thing. Why not us vs the Chinese? Also what if they respond by threatening to give nuclear weapons to Iran or putting Iran under their umbrella?

The US isn't a leveraged economy.
I should also mention Aussie land would join in because they are threatened.
Phillipines has chosen the US by reopening bases...

SEA has started to chose who they support

 

[Marduk]

You do realize that this is a huge escalation right? Us and the Soviets have used proxies through the entire cold war and you are acting like it's a new thing. Why not us vs the Chinese? Also what if they respond by threatening to give nuclear weapons to Iran or putting Iran under their umbrella?

That's a bit of overstatement. US and Chinese troops shot at each other in Korea. China has provided massive amounts of military equipment to North Vietnam too, including ships and aircraft.
As i said in other cases, if only the enemies of the West were as skittish about potential escalations as some people in the West...
China is less likely to play the nuclear proliferation card than some others, due to how much it has to lose there in tit for tat. Nuclear Japan, nuclear South Korea, and the crown of "fuck you CCP" escalation, nuclear Taiwan... And they know they are on thin ice in that regard already due to letting NK build their nukes.

 

[King Arts]

The US isn't a leveraged economy.
I should also mention Aussie land would join in because they are threatened.
Phillipines has chosen the US by reopening bases...

SEA has started to chose who they support

Yes many people dislike China, but they don't want to kickstart ww3. Just like India doesen't like Russia yet they aren't going to hurt their economy and stop trading with Russia.

That's a bit of overstatement. US and Chinese troops shot at each other in Korea. China has provided massive amounts of military equipment to North Vietnam too, including ships and aircraft.
As i said in other cases, if only the enemies of the West were as skittish about potential escalations as some people in the West...
China is less likely to play the nuclear proliferation card than some others, due to how much it has to lose there in tit for tat. Nuclear Japan, nuclear South Korea, and the crown of escalation, nuclear Taiwan... And they know they are on thin ice in that regard already due to letting NK build their nukes.

I mean if they can't get Taiwan back it doesen't matter if it's under it's own nuclear umbrella or the umbrella of the US.

 

[Marduk]

Yes many people dislike China, but they don't want to kickstart ww3. Just like India doesen't like Russia yet they aren't going to hurt their economy and stop trading with Russia.


I mean if they can't get Taiwan back it doesen't matter if it's under it's own nuclear umbrella or the umbrella of the US.

As long as its just USA, there is always hope that politics happen, some US politician gets too friendly, or there is a distraction, or he decides to not play chicken, or something.
If Taiwan itself has its own too, the whole plan is done for, as it would require both governments to be compromised at the same time, a far harder scenario to arrange, just one is bad enough.

 

[King Arts]

As long as its just USA, there is always hope that politics happen, some US politician gets too friendly, or there is a distraction, or he decides to not play chicken, or something.
If Taiwan itself has its own too, the whole plan is done for, as it would require both governments to be compromised at the same time.

A counterpoint, what if Taiwan gets it's own nuclear deterrent. The CCP collapses/leaves communism and they reunite like West and East Germany?

 

[Marduk]

A counterpoint, what if Taiwan gets it's own nuclear deterrent. The CCP collapses/leaves communism and they reunite like West and East Germany?

What then? Either way the resulting country has nuclear weapons in the end, the only question is how many.

 

[King Arts]

What then? Either way the resulting country has nuclear weapons in the end, the only question is how many.

I'm saying that you don't play all or nothing ideological games. You realize that some groups have conflicting needs. The reason we are opposed to China has nothing to do with them being commies even if they were capitalist democracy with the same constitution as us to the letter only replacing America with China they would still fight us because their interest compels them to push back against US hegemony in Asia. Just like if a hypotetical European hyperstate a EU that became an actual nation would also have conflicting desires to the US. This doesen't mean you surrender everything to them. It just means that when you compete you don't go for everything. They win some you win some you lose some they lose some. Because otherwise it's a receipe for the other side to challenge you and say "We will either win or cause human extinction and send you to hell."

 

[AmosTrask]

The US isn't a leveraged economy.
I should also mention Aussie land would join in because they are threatened.
Phillipines has chosen the US by reopening bases...

SEA has started to chose who they support

We'd support you. ASEAN is constantly being pressured by China and we're tired of it. You won't have to try too hard and you'll recruit entire divisions of Jurumentados raring to kill the Chinese, those honorless, cowardly fucks

 

[Marduk]

I'm saying that you don't play all or nothing ideological games. You realize that some groups have conflicting needs. The reason we are opposed to China has nothing to do with them being commies even if they were capitalist democracy with the same constitution as us to the letter only replacing America with China they would still fight us because their interest compels them to push back against US hegemony in Asia.

What US hegemony? That is an extremely ideological vision of the world to see such a thing. See: EU-US relations, varying with which part of political spectrum you ask there may or may not be such a thing, but either way the rivalry is not as tense as with China.
While some degree of rivalry may well be there, it would look more like the US relations with EU or Japan than the current situation.

Just like if a hypotetical European hyperstate a EU that became an actual nation would also have conflicting desires to the US. This doesen't mean you surrender everything to them. It just means that when you compete you don't go for everything. They win some you win some you lose some they lose some. Because otherwise it's a receipe for the other side to challenge you and say "We will either win or cause human extinction and send you to hell."

It already does, but now it's mostly limited to sick burns on twitter, bickering and lawfare.
I think everyone would prefer that to the current setup.
What serious conflicts would "United Republic of China" have with USA?
The Taiwan question would be over, they would cooperate in settling the NK problems, they would get better trade deals than now, even if the bickering about details would be plentiful, they wouldn't be reaching so far with attempts to get global power bases...

 

[King Arts]

We'd support you. ASEAN is constantly being pressured by China and we're tired of it. You won't have to try too hard and you'll recruit entire divisions of Jurumentados raring to kill the Chinese, those honorless, cowardly fucks

WTF? I thought you said you were Romanian? Why do you give a shit about what Chi coms do in Asia? It doesen't seem to be in Romania's interest to support a world war. I can understand weakening Russia you don't want to be under the bear. But Chinese domination of the South China Sea most eastern europeans don't care.

What US hegemony? That is an extremely ideological vision of the world to see such a thing. See: EU-US relations, varying with which part of political spectrum you ask there may or may not be such a thing, but either way the rivalry is not as tense as with China.
While some degree of rivalry may well be there, it would look more like the US relations with EU or Japan than the current situation.

No there would be resentment do you think nations that have the same government can't fight? Germany in WW1 was a constitutional monarchy so was the UK they still had war and tensions because Germany was the rising power and wanted to unseat the UK and get it's place in the sun. If China was a democracy they would want to get stronger and not be a junior partner to the US.
They would also be leery of US involvement in that area as they would see it as their backyard same as if another power started getting involved in Latin America which the US sees as it's backyard.

It already does, but now it's mostly limited to sick burns on twitter, bickering and lawfare.
I think everyone would prefer that to the current setup.
What serious conflicts would "United Republic of China" have with USA?
The Taiwan question would be over, they would cooperate in settling the NK problems, they would get better trade deals than now, even if the bickering about details would be plentiful, they wouldn't be reaching so far with attempts to get global power bases...

The only question that would be resolved would be the Taiwan issue. But why would economic disputes in the South China Sea be resolved by magic democracy? The CCP wants to impose it's government on Taiwan, but it doesen't want to force a CCP party on Vietnam, or other south east asian nations. They just want to make them vassals/economic protectorates/junior allies pick whatever term you want. Their goal there is Chinese Empire. Why would a Chinese democracy not want empire? Or not dislike certain groups for historical grievances?

 

[Marduk]

No there would be resentment do you think nations that have the same government can't fight? Germany in WW1 was a constitutional monarchy so was the UK they still had war and tensions because Germany was the rising power and wanted to unseat the UK and get it's place in the sun. If China was a democracy they would want to get stronger and not be a junior partner to the US.

It's less about same governments and more about democratic governments, who naturally don't have much interest in having leaders play power games against others who are like them.

Why doesn't Japan want so much to stop USA throwing its way around in Asia?
Why would they care so much?
Backyard? Russia and India are their main backyard concerns, and USA is not particularly buddy-buddy with either.

They would also be leery of US involvement in that area as they would see it as their backyard same as if another power started getting involved in Latin America which the US sees as it's backyard.

>started
I have to remind you that Havana and Caracas are somehow still not in the history of USMC battles, while if USA was following the Monroe Doctrine as jealously and strongly as you are implying, they would have been, and no one could really do much about it.

The only question that would be resolved would be the Taiwan issue. But why would economic disputes in the South China Sea be resolved by magic democracy? The CCP wants to impose it's government on Taiwan, but it doesen't want to force a CCP party on Vietnam, or other south east asian nations. They just want to make them vassals/economic protectorates/junior allies pick whatever term you want. Their goal there is Chinese Empire. Why would a Chinese democracy not want empire? Or not dislike certain groups for historical grievances?

Which has a lot to do with the ambitions of Chinese political class and related dysfunctions of its economy. Change the system, and both will change dramatically. For one a China not interested in dickwaving against USA to keep it from intervening in Taiwan suddenly has a lot less strategic interest in holding island chains and everything related to that. Again, why isn't Japan trying to turn them into colonies the same way? It sure has the economic power, military power, and even history.
Koreans and Japanese have huge historical grievances, why aren't they in a state of cold war?
Almost as bad as Poland and Germany, yet those are kinda getting along too.

 

[AmosTrask]

Great. It's the Soviet system come again.

I knew that Union State treaty Belarus signed would come back to bite them in the ass.

Agent23 you're a Turk when you say your people kept the Turks out of Europe. Would it not be more accurate to say the Bulgarians fought and failed to keep the Turks out given your existence? Besides I'm quite sure Vienna kept the Turks out with German, Polish and Italian help.

 

[Terthna]

Well, punishing US companies who keep doing business with parts of the CCP that support Russia's invasion of Ukraine, and punishing US companies who do business with out enemies in general, wouldn't be a bad thing.

It wouldn't, but good luck getting our current government to do that.

 

[Agent23]

Ok treasonous Turk separatist.

At least you can be original, then again it is you, so endless regurgitation of the same old shit and whatabourism are impossible to avoid.

>threatens second Ribbentrop-Molotov pact
>Poland is the bellicose party here

Lol, context much, more proof you are either a total scumbag or dumber than a bag of hammers.
I threaten reciprocity and you ree and claim to be a victim.
When you organize stupid games you will get a stupid prize, one of your own make.
You know, I am starting to think that it was parts of the Polish ruling class and population, and not the evil Moskov or your geography that was to blame for most of your problems with the neighbors. Well, history does not repeat itself, but it often rhymes.

You're the drama queen who is butthurt about Poles volunteering to fight Russian Empire lol.

You are the ass that started whining about you being 'genocided' when I ask you what has Poland done for us and why we should give a rat's ass about your Russia Derangement Syndrome, especially since you don't give a rat's ass about us and actively interfered in our attempts to free ourselves of the Ottomans, or do you admit you just have the attention span of a toddler on crack?

Why didn't you want the glorious, globohomo, USA, neocon warmonger and NATO free, cheap resource rich life in Russian World also known as the Eurasian Economic Union instead?

First off, the Bulgarian population was never consulted about joining any of the organizations in question, NATO was sold, to the extend it was sold, as a way for us to keep peace with the neighbors and spend less money on the military and as something we should do if we want to join the "family of civilized European people's" aka the EU.

The EU was also sold as muh civilized Yurup as well as easy, visa free travel and no trade restrictions.
As to why we are actually in it?
Well, a mix of carrot and stick on the EU's part and our oligrschs and bureaucrats looking for a sugar daddy after the USSR fell, in combination with what I already explained above.

Literally the meme:

Yup, tell that to Switzerland after the EU armteists them on free travel and banking secrecy and a dozen other things, or the Greeks(not that I give a shit about them) or to Ireland after they had to vote for the Lisbon treaty until they approved it.
Or any other small, peripheral country the EU bullies with it's overreach.
come to think of it, you ree about all that, too.

We stopped Turks from overrunning Europe too and it's much more recent lol, get used to not getting credit for that.

Pfft, Vienna is nothing compared to saving Constentinopol.It is as important if not more important than what Charles Martel did at the Battle of Tours.

Lol muh American hegemony. Make up your mind, is EU elite rule the horrible thing, or is EU leftist elite better (muh corporations not paying enough taxes and dodging our hate speech laws with their 1A!) with their ambition about countering America hegemony?

Working as a block can be advantageous.The single market is a good idea, as is free travel.
Everything else?
Hard pass.
They can stuff their minimum VAT and eco bullshit where the sun don't shine, in particular.

Waiting for them to make their own EU equivalent.

Well what you see is fucking delusions, being reliant on Russia is idiocy, and current events prove it. Some are learning that hard now, hopefully it will stick. Nevermind that wars and shit are NATO business and we sure aren't leaving that.

Ah, and here we have it, the Pole once again uses false dichotomies and tries to elevate his own country's interests to the level of the Entire block and disregards anyone else's.

The Latvians/Lithuanians/Livoniand, whatever made up the other part of Zhopishpolita must have been real masochists to take this sort of attitude for centuries. Since you guys are so special why don't you exit NAFO and make your own things with the Baltic shitholes and your half of Ukraine.
Now go put your special Polish ass on the line for your Polish quadrangle or whatever, it had been 367 days of you whining, and bitching, and demanding someone else do your work for you, collectivist jingoist parasite.

 

[Morphic Tide]

@Marduk, you seem to either catastrophically misunderstand Agent23's point, or are engaged in strict "Us vs. Them" tribalism with no allowance for neutrality.

Agent23's point seems to be "fuck this whole-ass mess, we have literally no reason to fight this out there", which you are continuously stretching into active support for Russia.

Instead of "fighting to the last Ukrainian" as a fucked-up proxy war with holes the size of Jupiter for internationalist corruption, actively harming ourselves to do so to varying extents due to unnecessarily compromising access to Russian resources, what Agent23 seems to want is to carefully prepare for Russia without bearing ass to the WEF-associated globalist bullshit in the process instead of throwing away resources and being led to the money-juicer to irrational russophobia.

Do correct me if I'm wrong, @Agent23.

 

[Agent23]

@Marduk, you seem to either catastrophically misunderstand Agent23's point, or are engaged in strict "Us vs. Them" tribalism with no allowance for neutrality.

Agent23's point seems to be "fuck this whole-ass mess, we have literally no reason to fight this out there", which you are continuously stretching into active support for Russia.

Instead of "fighting to the last Ukrainian" as a fucked-up proxy war with holes the size of Jupiter for internationalist corruption, actively harming ourselves to do so to varying extents due to unnecessarily compromising access to Russian resources, what Agent23 seems to want is to carefully prepare for Russia without bearing ass to the WEF-associated globalist bullshit in the process instead of throwing away resources and being led to the money-juicer to irrational russophobia.

Do correct me if I'm wrong, @Agent23.

Most yes.

I also want Russia to win because it will be delicious to watch all the open leftoids, crypto-leftoids and other MIC useful idiots and polish irredentists get a collective brain aneurysm.


Partly I do support Russia for cultural and historic reasons and yes I want access to their markets and resources though, but not letting the likes of Marduk wreck Europe's economy and damage our shared interests and turn Europe into a fully subservient US colony because of their cowardly jingoism by proxy and because they have some stupid fantasies about muh Rechposhpolita is my main concern.
Of course, not all Poles suffer from Russia Derangement Syndrome, and I am sure many of those who outwardly appear to are actually cowed by the likes of Marduk's pushy, struggle session Kantorekesque behavior and censored in their media, which is something he applauded previously.

Marduk and some of the other Poles, as well as their government have proven to be far too egotistic, to obsessive and self-serving and convinced the sun rises out of a Polish ass to be desirable allies or head honchos in eastern Yurup.

That and I want to stop the horizontal and vertical expansion of the EU and the two are linked together.

Put it this way, he is Refa to my Londo.

 

[Agent23]

For now, this is not the case. And what wasn't or was and isn't, don't write yourself into the record. Russia in our interest is to be as far away from us as possible and preferably nothing. We don't want Russia and we don't trust it an inch. Hence, we will gladly build an army with our own money to emphasize this. The vast majority of German companies in our country avoid paying taxes from the profits they have made in our country. And those who give us money for the Military is the US as it is, not the EU. So your argument is fallacies and pulled out of your ass.

Oh, really?
Sounds like your politicains are to blame for not taxing German companies properly.
Corporate income tax (CIT) in Poland |
VAT rates in Poland: An Overview
Now, that money, along with the income taxes you pay and all other taxes, and the money you do not pay for infrastructure thanks to the EU structural funds, with some of that money going to polish companies that then pay a portion of it in taxes, all goes to your government.
Or should go, no idea how good you are at actually collecting or how much some of your politicians cucked out for western companies.

More accurately, we will again become invisible as under Mr. Tusk, no one will count with our opinion. And the only course we will be able to take is the one that the Germans will point out to us, i.e. Woke and other fuckups of the left. No thanks.
That is, in other words, Poland might as well not exist, and the effect would be identical as if we were a geographical namin.

Um, yeah, you had thet thing called the Visegrad group, but you are squandering your political capital with it.
Kurtz was an Eurosceptic, but your buddies in the Baltics worked very hard to discredit him.

The way I see it, the EU is using this conflict to grab to more power and split up internal opposition.

Furthermore, we need to stop it from expanding so that the Eurocracy can stop getting more corrupt, paid clients and so thet the Krauts and other westerners will not be able to import as much cheap labor and gain more markets, which will strengthen our bargaining position and force them to pay more money to their colonial workforce around here.
Once we become rich and have stability we can push for cleaner government on the local level and then for more control over Europe and utilmarley less Europe.

What the EU is doing is the same as what the Democrats in the USA are doing and what every empire did.

Divide at Impera.
Constent growth is necessary for that, though, and for their companies to stay profitable and the inflation to stay low despite their woke shit and zirp.

Flood the place with slave labor, make a large portion of the population dependant on the state/oligarchy via bureaucracy based clientelism or outright bread and circuses.
They will never, ever let a good crisis go to waste.

The interwar period, the customs war between Poland and Germany from 1925 to 1934. Although the consequences were painful for us in the first year, they eventually gave a boost that made us independent of Germany, gained new trade partners and the modernization of the economy was accelerated. Which, in the long run, paid off for us.

Two points here.

First off, the levels of interdependence have increased as had the complexity of manufacturing and supply chains.

It will be a lot harder for you to pull that off nowadays, especially as you are surrounded by the EU.

In contrast, the Fancy Plan to bring Poland down and take back the lands that were briefly German did not come to fruition. Because they tried to force Poland to give back Silesia, Greater Poland and Gdansk Pomerania in this way.

Yeah, but they still ended up invading you...