Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Batrix2070]

Sounds like your politicains are to blame for not taxing German companies properly.

Of course, the extremely strong position of German companies (and foreign companies in general) is their fault. As a result, those taxes you cited are hardly paid by foreign. The overwhelming majority of the proceeds from these taxes come from Polish companies and attention. Foreign companies have low and simple taxes and yet they transfer profits abroad. Polish ones, on the other hand, have to agonize over a thicket of regulations.

The way I see it, the EU is using this conflict to grab to more power and split up internal opposition.

Yes, but to want is not to be able. At the end of the day, as long as it's the nation-states that have the armies, ultimately their opinion is more important than the EU's. Like, for example, we thanked Frontex for wanting to help with refugees, meaning we told them to get out because they were useless.

Especially since the whole idea of the EU's rise was based on Russia, without Russian resources the EU will continue to be a stubborn organization. Because attention shock! Russia wanted to change the EU into a federation, in this way the opinion of the countries opposed to Russia would be suppressed, and what is outside the EU would belong to Russia.

The liberal-leftists would be happy, because they would have cheap raw materials for their madness and the Russian army as a bogeyman against the unruly, and Russia would be satisfied because it could rebuild the USSR and be able to kick America out of Eurasia. Where do you see the humiliation of the Eurocommunists here?

It is Russia's defeat that will humiliate the Eurofederalists. Because the main driving force that allowed them to hope for independence and build their own utopian paradise was destroyed in Ukraine.

Furthermore, we need to stop it from expanding so that the Eurocracy can stop getting more corrupt, paid clients and so thet the Krauts and other westerners will not be able to import as much cheap labor and gain more markets, which will strengthen our bargaining position and force them to pay more money to their colonial workforce around here.
Once we become rich and have stability we can push for cleaner government on the local level and then for more control over Europe and utilmarley less Europe.

And you want to achieve this by strengthening Germany, the chief whacko of ecological madness and all leftism? Because it's the Germans who will get the most out of it, and the Germans want to turn the EU into a federation, this way they will expand their influence and the Eurocrats are satisfied because this way they will manage to get the power they were never supposed to get. It is Germany that cares most about Russia's victory, it is for Germany that cutting off Russian Raw Materials is most painful.

How do you want to weaken the EU, in a situation where you are giving them what they want most? Ukraine is the problem, they would most like to give it to Russia, the problem is that Ukrainians do not want to Russia. So do the Baltic countries, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia because they will suddenly become frontline countries of the EU.

The whole point of Europe's independence and the ability of the Germans and French to throttle the unruly is based on Russia, as long as the war lasts those stand still or are even forced to revise their plans.

Your proposal is detached from reality and brings the scenario you hate closer, not further away. As long as the U.S. uses Poland as the unruly one in the EU, the EU can go no further. It is forced to stay put.

Well, and your proposal is based on the false hope that they will not find someone else. This may be good for a small country wishing for autonomy. For Poland, it's beneath us and another attempt to pack us into a role that doesn't suit us. We'd rather be first in the village than second in Rome. Another thing is that yes, they will give autonomy, only if we agree to their ideological madness, otherwise they will find cheap labor for themselves, for example in Asia.

Two points here.

First off, the levels of interdependence have increased as had the complexity of manufacturing and supply chains.

It will be a lot harder for you to pull that off nowadays, especially as you are surrounded by the EU.

This needs to be changed, nothing remains constant. If the Germans do it again, just be stubborn enough and endure a difficult period to eventually see that it could have been done differently.

At the end of the day, it's not the here and now that counts, but what will be in 10, 20 years. Just because it's a problem now doesn't mean it won't always be so.

Yeah, but they still ended up invading you...

Well, yes, but we had little influence on their attack. They would have stopped only if we had surrendered those lands to Germany. If we were still as connected as we were then we would have fallen much faster. And so there was pressure and pressure to develop Gdynia, to modernize and expand industry. Without that the whole thing would have taken much longer.

 

[Marduk]

@Marduk, you seem to either catastrophically misunderstand Agent23's point, or are engaged in strict "Us vs. Them" tribalism with no allowance for neutrality.

Agent23's point seems to be "fuck this whole-ass mess, we have literally no reason to fight this out there", which you are continuously stretching into active support for Russia.

I'm way beyond interpreting his current points (often contradicting within single or sequential posts) in such a forgiving way, as we have had long discussions on this topic when he has thrown impressive amounts of straight out Russian propaganda points at me regarding Ukraine, and has shilled probably half of openly pro-Russian talking heads on the internet here.
So, fuck those half-assed moat and bailey tactics.

Instead of "fighting to the last Ukrainian" as a fucked-up proxy war with holes the size of Jupiter for internationalist corruption, actively harming ourselves to do so to varying extents due to unnecessarily compromising access to Russian resources, what Agent23 seems to want is to carefully prepare for Russia without bearing ass to the WEF-associated globalist bullshit in the process instead of throwing away resources and being led to the money-juicer to irrational russophobia.

Do correct me if I'm wrong, @Agent23.

Russia regularly uses access to its resources as blackmail to get what it wants, so yeah, wait for me to complain about access to them, while it has been multi decade conviction of vast majority of political forces in my country that no, we shouldn't be reliant on those to begin with. Not that they are even so cheap, Russia likes getting paid market prices as much as the next guy, and if they are selling below, which they are to some, that means they got paid by different means. Are EU countries of all peoples so poor and desperate that they absolutely need to sell such "different means" to Russia to save a bit on gas?
When did Ethiopia or Somalia join the EU?

Also muh WEF (which Putin didn't get disowned by until last year) and muh corruption (imagine Russia doing anything related to corruption other than spreading and exploiting it) are just generic distraction points.

 

[Marduk]

At least you can be original, then again it is you, so endless regurgitation of the same old shit and whatabourism are impossible to avoid.

I'm learning that from the best, look at the end of your post.

Lol, context much, more proof you are either a total scumbag or dumber than a bag of hammers.
I threaten reciprocity and you ree and claim to be a victim.

>reciprocity
Your brain on euroasianism, everyone.

When you organize stupid games you will get a stupid prize, one of your own make.
You know, I am starting to think that it was parts of the Polish ruling class and population, and not the evil Moskov or your geography that was to blame for most of your problems with the neighbors. Well, history does not repeat itself, but it often rhymes.

Yeah, every instance of not being a cucked client state to Moscow is "stupid games" because Bulgaria benefitted from it once through the alternative being a worse master.

You are the ass that started whining about you being 'genocided' when I ask you what has Poland done for us and why we should give a rat's ass about your Russia Derangement Syndrome, especially since you don't give a rat's ass about us and actively interfered in our attempts to free ourselves of the Ottomans, or do you admit you just have the attention span of a toddler on crack?

Why should we do anything for you, who the fuck are you? What did you do for us? You're on the other end of Europe FFS.
>free ourselves
No, you are whining about us interfering in Russian Empire's attempts to take you from Ottomans and in process get richer by a client state.
So yeah, "ourselves". By being a client state. Thanks for the propaganda spiel.
Still, that has jack shit to do with events of XX and XXI century.

First off, the Bulgarian population was never consulted about joining any of the organizations in question, NATO was sold, to the extend it was sold, as a way for us to keep peace with the neighbors and spend less money on the military and as something we should do if we want to join the "family of civilized European people's" aka the EU.

And what's inaccurate there?
Are you at peace with the neighbors? Yes...
Are you spending a lot on the military? 1.8% GDP, not great, not terrible.
Are you in the EU? Yes.
So what the fuck are you complaining about? That the "family of civilized European people's" is not tolerating the uncivilized behavior of Russia which is now 2 other borders away from you (so not neighbors at all) but want an empire back and you have a sentiment for being its client state due to events from few centuries ago, also they pay nice bribes for client states?
Again, why aren't you in the Eurasian Economic Union then? Perhaps the EU bribes you are already getting are better but still you would like to double agent this and take two paychecks?

The EU was also sold as muh civilized Yurup as well as easy, visa free travel and no trade restrictions.
As to why we are actually in it?
Well, a mix of carrot and stick on the EU's part and our oligrschs and bureaucrats looking for a sugar daddy after the USSR fell, in combination with what I already explained above.

And didn't it deliver on those promises? I note that even you don't include "eternal and unconditional friendship with Russia" is on the list of promises given.

Yup, tell that to Switzerland after the EU armteists them on free travel and banking secrecy and a dozen other things, or the Greeks(not that I give a shit about them) or to Ireland after they had to vote for the Lisbon treaty until they approved it.
Or any other small, peripheral country the EU bullies with it's overreach.
come to think of it, you ree about all that, too.

I have plenty enough of issues with how the EU is currently run, but in no way that makes the issues with Russia suddenly not exist. Politics can be and often are multifactional, you of all people know it, so don't pretend to fall in the "everyone who opposes one bad guy has to be good guys" bullshit.

Pfft, Vienna is nothing compared to saving Constentinopol.It is as important if not more important than what Charles Martel did at the Battle of Tours.

What a great favor you did, defending yourself from savages totally altruistically, absolutely not out of own need for that

Working as a block can be advantageous.The single market is a good idea, as is free travel.
Everything else?
Hard pass.
They can stuff their minimum VAT and eco bullshit where the sun don't shine, in particular.

Various silly tax and norm regulations are unfortunately the price of having a single market. Eco bullshit? Again, politics and crazies.

Ah, and here we have it, the Pole once again uses false dichotomies and tries to elevate his own country's interests to the level of the Entire block and disregards anyone else's.

Is being clientized by Russia in the interest of the block, or not at all?
That is a simple question...
If anything, if the block's leadership was good for something, the question we would be asking would be turned the other way around, if Russia should be a client state of the EU, but the ruling class of Russia is probably too ambitious to accept such a position.

The Latvians/Lithuanians/Livoniand, whatever made up the other part of Zhopishpolita must have been real masochists to take this sort of attitude for centuries. Since you guys are so special why don't you exit NAFO and make your own things with the Baltic shitholes and your half of Ukraine.

Because that would be strategically stupid and pointless while we have better ways, which you hate, but again, who the fuck are you.
Just because you love serving the interests of the Russian Empire doesn't mean everyone else has such servile attitudes.

Now go put your special Polish ass on the line for your Polish quadrangle or whatever, it had been 367 days of you whining, and bitching, and demanding someone else do your work for you, collectivist jingoist parasite.

Fuck off pacicuck Quisling. Why are you still living in globohomo russophobic EU and not Russia with its cheap resources? Put your ass on the line for the country you want to serve so much that you spend hours upon hours spreading the blatant propaganda of.

 

[Marduk]

Most yes.

I also want Russia to win because it will be delicious to watch all the open leftoids, crypto-leftoids and other MIC useful idiots and polish irredentists get a collective brain aneurysm.


Partly I do support Russia for cultural and historic reasons and yes I want access to their markets and resources though, but not letting the likes of Marduk wreck Europe's economy and damage our shared interests and turn Europe into a fully subservient US colony because of their cowardly jingoism by proxy and because they have some stupid fantasies about muh Rechposhpolita is my main concern.
Of course, not all Poles suffer from Russia Derangement Syndrome, and I am sure many of those who outwardly appear to are actually cowed by the likes of Marduk's pushy, struggle session Kantorekesque behavior and censored in their media, which is something he applauded previously.

Yeah, enjoy Polish ultracatho-loons and other socialists on your side, that's the "not russophobic" 20% of Poland, you are welcome to keep them.
Also wow muh US colony, muh European economy, for some reason you try to look like you hate the WEF backed eurobureaucrats and leftists, but turns out you actually agree with them on these two big questions, you just hate their implementation of one.

Again, your brain on euroasianism.

Marduk and some of the other Poles, as well as their government have proven to be far too egotistic, to obsessive and self-serving and convinced the sun rises out of a Polish ass to be desirable allies or head honchos in eastern Yurup.

And you whine about me being the collectivist? You? A self-claimed libertarian whining about other government being "far too egotistic, to obsessive and self-serving"?
Lol, talk about nostalgia for "brotherly nations" in the USSR.

 

[Agent23]

Of course, the extremely strong position of German companies (and foreign companies in general) is their fault. As a result, those taxes you cited are hardly paid by foreign. The overwhelming majority of the proceeds from these taxes come from Polish companies and attention. Foreign companies have low and simple taxes and yet they transfer profits abroad. Polish ones, on the other hand, have to agonize over a thicket of regulations.

Well, I can't do anything about your politicians being dumb, I myself have had to deal with similar shit though.

Yes, but to want is not to be able. At the end of the day, as long as it's the nation-states that have the armies, ultimately their opinion is more important than the EU's. Like, for example, we thanked Frontex for wanting to help with refugees, meaning we told them to get out because they were useless.

Ok, good for you then.

Especially since the whole idea of the EU's rise was based on Russia, without Russian resources the EU will continue to be a stubborn organization. Because attention shock! Russia wanted to change the EU into a federation, in this way the opinion of the countries opposed to Russia would be suppressed, and what is outside the EU would belong to Russia.

The problem is that the EU can fuck with you you economically if you don't play ball.

The liberal-leftists would be happy, because they would have cheap raw materials for their madness and the Russian army as a bogeyman against the unruly, and Russia would be satisfied because it could rebuild the USSR and be able to kick America out of Eurasia. Where do you see the humiliation of the Eurocommunists here?

Um, whaa?

It is Russia's defeat that will humiliate the Eurofederalists. Because the main driving force that allowed them to hope for independence and build their own utopian paradise was destroyed in Ukraine.

Nope, Ukraine was an EU project, and currently the EU is built to grow constantly.
When that growth is held in check and they are blocked they will either have to reform or collapse.

And you want to achieve this by strengthening Germany, the chief whacko of ecological madness and all leftism? Because it's the Germans who will get the most out of it, and the Germans want to turn the EU into a federation, this way they will expand their influence and the Eurocrats are satisfied because this way they will manage to get the power they were never supposed to get. It is Germany that cares most about Russia's victory, it is for Germany that cutting off Russian Raw Materials is most painful.

Strengthen, no, but not destroy theirs and the EU's economy, and besides, it is the green lunatics and the EC that have been supporting this war.

How do you want to weaken the EU, in a situation where you are giving them what they want most? Ukraine is the problem, they would most like to give it to Russia, the problem is that Ukrainians do not want to Russia. So do the Baltic countries, Poland, the Czech Republic and Slovakia because they will suddenly become frontline countries of the EU.

They wanted Ukraine, them not getting it will be a blow to their credibility and will stop the Eurocrat empire from gobbling up more lands.

The whole point of Europe's independence and the ability of the Germans and French to throttle the unruly is based on Russia, as long as the war lasts those stand still or are even forced to revise their plans.

Look, there is a lot of unhappiness with the EU, but the anti-EU forces gnawing at each-other instead of focusing on an enemy that plays them off against one another is counter-productive.

Your proposal is detached from reality and brings the scenario you hate closer, not further away. As long as the U.S. uses Poland as the unruly one in the EU, the EU can go no further. It is forced to stay put.

Well, and your proposal is based on the false hope that they will not find someone else. This may be good for a small country wishing for autonomy. For Poland, it's beneath us and another attempt to pack us into a role that doesn't suit us. We'd rather be first in the village than second in Rome. Another thing is that yes, they will give autonomy, only if we agree to their ideological madness, otherwise they will find cheap labor for themselves, for example in Asia.

It is not just labor they get from their colonies east, but also a captive market.
Stop the expansion and you stop economic growth.

And that cheap labor will have to be shipped in from outside the EU, in that case they will have domestic anger against them.

Also, you are making a second mistake in thinking that the EU and Russia like each-other, Russians want some goods from Germany, France and Italy in exchange for oil.
Their oligarchy wants to launder its money in the UK and live on the French Riviera.

They would be a lot happier if the EU did not exist with its constant virtue signalling and stupid energy packages.

This needs to be changed, nothing remains constant. If the Germans do it again, just be stubborn enough and endure a difficult period to eventually see that it could have been done differently.

At the end of the day, it's not the here and now that counts, but what will be in 10, 20 years. Just because it's a problem now doesn't mean it won't always be so.

Well, yes, but we had little influence on their attack. They would have stopped only if we had surrendered those lands to Germany. If we were still as connected as we were then we would have fallen much faster. And so there was pressure and pressure to develop Gdynia, to modernize and expand industry. Without that the whole thing would have taken much longer.

You know what might have helped?
Allies.

But you manage to piss off all your neighbors it seems.

I'm learning that from the best, look at the end of your post.

>reciprocity
Your brain on euroasianism, everyone.

Yeah, every instance of not being a cucked client state to Moscow is "stupid games" because Bulgaria benefitted from it once through the alternative being a worse master.

Why should we do anything for you, who the fuck are you? What did you do for us? You're on the other end of Europe FFS.
>free ourselves
No, you are whining about us interfering in Russian Empire's attempts to take you from Ottomans and in process get richer by a client state.
So yeah, "ourselves". By being a client state. Thanks for the propaganda spiel.
Still, that has jack shit to do with events of XX and XXI century.

April Uprising of 1876 - Wikipedia

And what's inaccurate there?
Are you at peace with the neighbors? Yes...
Are you spending a lot on the military? 1.8% GDP, not great, not terrible.
Are you in the EU? Yes.
So what the fuck are you complaining about? That the "family of civilized European people's" is not tolerating the uncivilized behavior of Russia which is now 2 other borders away from you (so not neighbors at all) but want an empire back and you have a sentiment for being its client state due to events from few centuries ago, also they pay nice bribes for client states?
Again, why aren't you in the Eurasian Economic Union then? Perhaps the EU bribes you are already getting are better but still you would like to double agent this and take two paychecks?

Maybe that you are fucking all of the EU by damaging it economically and pushing it to one side of a war when we have no dog in the fight aside for you Poles, who have dupebol.
Furthermore, this is very much a dilemma where if we are in NAFO and our enemies are they could stir some shit up without fear of repercussion, but that is not a very likely outcome, frankly, other than as a way to get closer to the EU I see no other use in our NATO membership.

And didn't it deliver on those promises? I note that even you don't include "eternal and unconditional friendship with Russia" is on the list of promises given.

I have plenty enough of issues with how the EU is currently run, but in no way that makes the issues with Russia suddenly not exist. Politics can be and often are multifactional, you of all people know it, so don't pretend to fall in the "everyone who opposes one bad guy has to be good guys" bullshit.

Yes, we know you are a hypocrite with double standards by now, no need to explain yourself further.

What a great favor you did, defending yourself from savages totally altruistically, absolutely not out of own need for that

Various silly tax and norm regulations are unfortunately the price of having a single market. Eco bullshit? Again, politics and crazies.

Is being clientized by Russia in the interest of the block, or not at all?

If you buy produce from a different shop that sells it at better prices then are you 'clientelized'? Yeah, and trade is done for mutual benefit.

Also, I would like to have a large, alternate ally against the Eu if it starts getting too uppity, then we can tell it to sod off the way Orban does routinely, but he is playing with a full deck and you guys are not.
In fact you are playing with a quarter deck since you can always be dragged into something that damages you economically because of your Russia derangement syndrome myopia.

That is a simple question...
If anything, if the block's leadership was good for something, the question we would be asking would be turned the other way around, if Russia should be a client state of the EU, but the ruling class of Russia is probably too ambitious to accept such a position.

Nah, a lot of their oligarchs just want to stuff their money in the west, go to the French Riviera and eat fua gra.

Because that would be strategically stupid and pointless while we have better ways, which you hate, but again, who the fuck are you.
Just because you love serving the interests of the Russian Empire doesn't mean everyone else has such servile attitudes.

Fuck off pacicuck Quisling. Why are you still living in globohomo russophobic EU and not Russia with its cheap resources? Put your ass on the line for the country you want to serve so much that you spend hours upon hours spreading the blatant propaganda of.

Fuck off, bellicose pole, you are a shill for the expansionist Eurocracy and the Biden administration, go to Ukraine and fight for it.

 

[Agent23]

Yeah, enjoy Polish ultracatho-loons and other socialists on your side, that's the "not russophobic" 20% of Poland, you are welcome to keep them.
Also wow muh US colony, muh European economy, for some reason you try to look like you hate the WEF backed eurobureaucrats and leftists, but turns out you actually agree with them on these two big questions, you just hate their implementation of one.

Again, your brain on euroasianism.

Yeah, sure I do, that is why I am vehemently against the greens.
You say some dumb shit, but this takes the cake.

And you whine about me being the collectivist? You? A self-claimed libertarian whining about other government being "far too egotistic, to obsessive and self-serving"?
Lol, talk about nostalgia for "brotherly nations" in the USSR.

Yeah, you obviously don't get what international relations are and how they are built on trust, between groups, not individuals...

 

[Marduk]

April Uprising of 1876 - Wikipedia

And i've noticed this isn't the Crimean War with the Polish interference you whined about.

Maybe that you are fucking all of the EU by damaging it economically and pushing it to one side of a war when we have no dog in the fight aside for you Poles, who have dupebol.

Lol wtf is EU economy, if we are damaging the economic schemes of German and other ostalgie-cucks and Moscow shady money takers, that only makes us proud.
Get a real economy corrupt cucks.

Yes, we know you are a hypocrite with double standards by now, no need to explain yourself further.

Can you stop with this projection shit, where is hypocrisy in not being a fucking easily propagandized cuck?

If you buy produce from a different shop that sells it at better prices then are you 'clientelized'? Yeah, and trade is done for mutual benefit.

Because logistics you idiot. Some of them will threaten to cut off your supply to get favors from you that are not included in the price and you will suffer huge disruptions if you don't oblige.

Also, I would like to have a large, alternate ally against the Eu if it starts getting too uppity, then we can tell it to sod off the way Orban does routinely, but he is playing with a full deck and you guys are not.

Lol, Orban is playing with patron's decks against each other rather than own, a dangerous game. Get an alternate ally who isn't a non-alternate rival at the same time, that will dramatically reduce the amount of times you get accused of betraying the non-alternate ally.

In fact you are playing with a quarter deck since you can always be dragged into something that damages you economically because of your Russia derangement syndrome myopia.

Selling sovereignty by pieces to Russia for pittance money is not something that makes one stronger. It's doubly idiotic when you're Germany and you don't even need pittance money (wtf is this with all the Russian shills thinking one of most high value added economies in the world lives or dies by tiny differenes in resource prices?), but corruption is one hell of a drug. You get the kind of problems Germany has now with the "muh damaged EU economy" you whine so much about now in the end.

Nah, a lot of their oligarchs just want to stuff their money in the west, go to the French Riviera and eat fua gra.

Yeah, Germany isn't the only one that fell for Russian attempts to get influence with money, so what, that's even more reason to cut this short.

Fuck off, bellicose pole, you are a shill for the expansionist Eurocracy and the Biden administration, go to Ukraine and fight for it.

This was the US position for several administrations before Biden administration and will remain after, get your head out of current year politics, sometimes i think you are pretending that you have it stuck in them for silly soundbite arguments like that.
Go live in Russia if you like its cheap resources, culture and history if you can't stand being separated from it by international conflicts of interest.

Yeah, you obviously don't get what international relations are and how they are built on trust, between groups, not individuals...

>Whines about building trust in international relations and how Poland is bad at it
>Shills for Russia right now
>While Poland was finally vindicated in being right about yelling everyone to not trust Russia
Your brain on euroasianism again. It's not like we were secretive with our distrust for Russia or our attitude towards it, no one can pretend this was some treacherous surprise turnaround that we are pushing against Russia now, we're acting exactly as we always said we will act, how is that not trustworthy?
That others didn't listen to our very loud warnings of what will happen and what will we do then, well, that's their loss.
It even got some of the western elites to admit that they were wrong and we were right, and you know how much they hate to admit it.

The EU’s East Was Right About Russia. Can It Lead Europe?

Poland and the Baltic states have been vindicated for their anti-Putin hawkishness. That has yet to translate into power.

www.bloomberg.com

No One in Europe Is Telling Poland to ‘Shut Up’ Now

Having been proved right about Russia, Warsaw is savoring its newfound influence in NATO and on Ukraine policy.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Batrix2070]

The problem is that the EU can fuck with you you economically if you don't play ball.

They are already doing it, they have offered the carrot of huge money from the reconstruction program, and they don't want to give it to us until we agree to give up the rest of our sovereignty. That is to say, this has been a negotiation in bad faith from the beginning, and at the same time they have the gall to impose their bullshit penalties on us. Somehow we live in spite of it, and even most likely will become a cause forcing change.

Um, whaa?

Yup, I understand you have blinders on, but they are pulling for each other and not against each other. Putin is just bullshitting all sorts of bullshit for the naive, and in reality he is together with them. He just apparently decided that it was time to put his plan into action, unfortunately it turned out that Germany is not as independent as it would like. They were brought down to the first floor by the US.

Nope, Ukraine was an EU project

Nope, it was an American project. For Europe, Ukraine is a superfluity. They even did their best not to help it, but to hand it over to Putin. I for one haven't forgotten what Germany and France did in 2014, how much they acted to make as little trouble for Russia as possible.

When that growth is held in check and they are blocked they will either have to reform or collapse.

And you want to achieve this by giving them the opportunity to develop with cheap raw materials from Russia? Have you fallen on your head or what?

Strengthen, no, but not destroy theirs and the EU's economy, and besides, it is the green lunatics and the EC that have been supporting this war.

But that's what will happen if Russia wins! You will not stop this machine! And the side of the Eurocrats that supports Russia is also ideologically insane!

They wanted Ukraine

And therein lies your whole problem, they DON'T WANT Ukraine. It was America that wanted Ukraine,
it was the Ukrainians who wanted Europe. The West would be all too happy if there was an effective 3 day special operation. That way another one of the problems in the way of agreement and trade with Russia would disappear.

Look, there is a lot of unhappiness with the EU, but the anti-EU forces gnawing at each-other instead of focusing on an enemy that plays them off against one another is counter-productive.

But your willingness and actions ultimately strengthen the EU, because the very plan for an independent EU from the US requires Russia and its raw materials! They can't otherwise, that way you are an illusory anti-EU force. Because de facto you are acting in its favor, according to the will of Russia which wants to get along with one bloc that speaks with the voice of France and Germany without others that can stand in their way!

Also, you are making a second mistake in thinking that the EU and Russia like each-other, Russians want some goods from Germany, France and Italy in exchange for oil.
Their oligarchy wants to launder its money in the UK and live on the French Riviera.

Yes, that's what their whole plan is about! They need to call each other names! As long as there is a viable blockade, the whole plan falls apart like a house of cards under the wind. Therefore, they should not be allowed to do so.

You know what might have helped?
Allies.

Well we have, even a protector that is the US. Because, after all, you don't think to yourself that we are to make so much of a mess simply by stomping our feet. Someone is helping us and that someone is not Russia. This one would rather silence us, ba as it turns out in the corruption scandal, people who are against Poland for ideological reasons, are at the same time bought by Russia. (Surprise!)

But you manage to piss off all your neighbors it seems.

As far as I remember, Bulgaria is not our neighbor. And we don't have bad relations with the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Lithuania. The Czechs and Slovaks are more or less on our side. Lithuania, which has seen with its own eyes how much the Germans are worth, is looking for an agreement with us. Belarus does not like us anyway, although if Kartoshenko wants to be independent he will need our help. (Not that we exactly need him). Ukraine is for the time being dependent on our support, because it is through us that aid to it goes. So he's trying to avoid pressing us on the imprint. Only Germany doesn't like us, but they have since they lost their puppets in 2015.

And Russia is showing how threatening it is in Ukraine.

So we have two neighbors pissed off at us who happen to have always been our rivals anyway. Three friendly ones and one aspiring one. And one who once threatens us and once cozies up to us.

Where are all your pissed off neighbors, huh?

 

[Agent23]

And i've noticed this isn't the Crimean War with the Polish interference you whined about.

Yeah, it isn't like I didn't link this guy:

Stanislas Saint Clair was born in 1835 in his maternal grandfather's mansion of Vepriai, Vilna Governorate of the Russian Empire (now Ukmergė district of Lithuania), which partially survives to this day. His father, Alexander Saint Clair (1800–1880) was a former military officer from the British colonial army in British India and a Scottish nobleman. His mother, Pelagia Kossakowska (1798–1881), was a Polish-Lithuanian noblewoman.
....
Being a son of a military officer, Saint Clair joined the British Army and took part in the Crimean war. He was promoted to the rank of captain in 1859. After the war, in 1862 he started work as a clerk in the British counselate in Burgas, then part of the Ottoman Empire. Two years later, he became a British consul in Varna. At that time, however, he frequently visited his home country, where in 1863 he joined the anti-Russian January Uprising that failed. In Bulgaria, he purchased an estate (a chiflik) in Akdere, intending to settle in the Ottoman Empire. Around this time he started calling himself Hidayet pasha ("the Guided General") thus claiming a military rank (pasha is the Ottoman equivalent of a general) that was never assigned to him. Around this time Saint Clair co-authored a book with Charles Brophy titled "A Residence in Bulgaria. Notes on the resources and the administration of Turkey", published in 1869 in London. The book contains a negative portrayal of Bulgarians.
...
After the Ottoman Empire's capitulation in the war, he conspired with several Ottoman army deserters to start a Muslim insurgence in the Rhodope mountains. Their propaganda efforts aimed to scare Turkish villagers with the rising "rule of the infidels" and make them believe there would soon be retributions for the massacres of Christians during the April uprising in Bulgaria. The anti-Bulgarian and anti-Russian nature of Saint Clair's activities soon found the implicit support of the Ottoman and the British empires, both of them hoping to revise the Treaty of San Stefano on terms favourable to Turkey.
...
In 1877 tried in vain to organise a Polish Legion in the Ottoman Army. After the Treaty of Berlin, the autonomous province of Eastern Rumelia was created and Saint Clair applied for the post of Governor General.

And throughout all of this he tried but failed to burn all of Sofia and a few other shitty things.

Polish Legion in Turkey - Wikipedia

The Polish Legion in Turkey (Polish: Legion Polski w Turcji) was a military force formed in Istanbul by emigrants from Partitioned Poland to fight with the Ottoman Army in the Russo-Turkish War that lasted from 1877 to 1878. At the beginning of the nineteenth century the unit consisted of around 20,000 troops.

Józef Jagmin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well, at least this guy we got to 404.

Lol wtf is EU economy, if we are damaging the economic schemes of German and other ostalgie-cucks and Moscow shady money takers, that only makes us proud.
Get a real economy corrupt cucks.

Can you stop with this projection shit, where is hypocrisy in not being a fucking easily propagandized cuck?

Because logistics you idiot. Some of them will threaten to cut off your supply to get favors from you that are not included in the price and you will suffer huge disruptions if you don't oblige.

Yeah, like what exactly?

You constantly go on and on about this gas blackmail that the Russians allegedly do, but I do not recall a single instant of that happening without a pretty huge provocation, wanna put your money where your mouth is?

And I am not saying source everything from them necessarily, but still they are the cheapest and most logical example.

Lol, Orban is playing with patron's decks against each other rather than own, a dangerous game. Get an alternate ally who isn't a non-alternate rival at the same time, that will dramatically reduce the amount of times you get accused of betraying the non-alternate ally.


Selling sovereignty by pieces to Russia for pittance money is not something that makes one stronger. It's doubly idiotic when you're Germany and you don't even need pittance money (wtf is this with all the Russian shills thinking one of most high value added economies in the world lives or dies by tiny differenes in resource prices?), but corruption is one hell of a drug. You get the kind of problems Germany has now with the "muh damaged EU economy" you whine so much about now in the end.

Europe Is Heading For ‘Deep Recession’, Deindustrialization

Yeah, Germany isn't the only one that fell for Russian attempts to get influence with money, so what, that's even more reason to cut this short.


This was the US position for several administrations before Biden administration and will remain after, get your head out of current year politics, sometimes i think you are pretending that you have it stuck in them for silly soundbite arguments like that.
Go live in Russia if you like its cheap resources, culture and history if you can't stand being separated from it by international conflicts of interest.

The EU as a whole does not have any conflict of interest with the Russians, only the expansionist Eurocracy and some in the hard support base of euro expansion do.
Well, them and Poland and the baltic shitholes, but I see no reason why the whole block must bend over backwards for you, if you hate the Russians so much go live in Ukraine and play live ammo tag with Vagner quisling NAFO shill.

>Whines about building trust in international relations and how Poland is bad at it
>Shills for Russia right now
>While Poland was finally vindicated in being right about yelling everyone to not trust Russia
Your brain on euroasianism again. It's not like we were secretive with our distrust for Russia or our attitude towards it, no one can pretend this was some treacherous surprise turnaround that we are pushing against Russia now, we're acting exactly as we always said we will act, how is that not trustworthy?
That others didn't listen to our very loud warnings of what will happen and what will we do then, well, that's their loss.
It even got some of the western elites to admit that they were wrong and we were right, and you know how much they hate to admit it.

The EU’s East Was Right About Russia. Can It Lead Europe?

Poland and the Baltic states have been vindicated for their anti-Putin hawkishness. That has yet to translate into power.

www.bloomberg.com

No One in Europe Is Telling Poland to ‘Shut Up’ Now

Having been proved right about Russia, Warsaw is savoring its newfound influence in NATO and on Ukraine policy.

www.nytimes.com

Oh, nice, gibberish from the RDS afflicted bloomberg.

 

[Agent23]

They are already doing it, they have offered the carrot of huge money from the reconstruction program, and they don't want to give it to us until we agree to give up the rest of our sovereignty. That is to say, this has been a negotiation in bad faith from the beginning, and at the same time they have the gall to impose their bullshit penalties on us. Somehow we live in spite of it, and even most likely will become a cause forcing change.

Just veto every single EU piece of legislation, those for Ukraine included, until you get the money.

Yup, I understand you have blinders on, but they are pulling for each other and not against each other. Putin is just bullshitting all sorts of bullshit for the naive, and in reality he is together with them. He just apparently decided that it was time to put his plan into action, unfortunately it turned out that Germany is not as independent as it would like. They were brought down to the first floor by the US.

Nope, it was an American project. For Europe, Ukraine is a superfluity. They even did their best not to help it, but to hand it over to Putin. I for one haven't forgotten what Germany and France did in 2014, how much they acted to make as little trouble for Russia as possible.

Yeah, no, Euromaidan - Wikipedia

Euromaidan (/ˌjʊərəˌmaɪˈdɑːn, ˌjʊəroʊ-/;[82][83] Ukrainian: Євромайдан, romanized: Yevromaidan, lit. 'Euro Square', IPA: [jeu̯romɐjˈdɑn][nb 6]), or the Maidan Uprising,[87] was a wave of demonstrations and civil unrest in Ukraine, which began on 21 November 2013 with large protests in Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square) in Kyiv. The protests were sparked by President Viktor Yanukovych's sudden decision not to sign the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union.

Seems like you are forgetting how this all started.

And you want to achieve this by giving them the opportunity to develop with cheap raw materials from Russia? Have you fallen on your head or what?

The entire bloc will benefit, since we are all forced to hang together.
Moreover, I don't see why we should risk all our national interests for a few NAFO bros, Ukraine, and Poland's RDS.

But that's what will happen if Russia wins! You will not stop this machine! And the side of the Eurocrats that supports Russia is also ideologically insane!

And therein lies your whole problem, they DON'T WANT Ukraine. It was America that wanted Ukraine,
it was the Ukrainians who wanted Europe. The West would be all too happy if there was an effective 3 day special operation. That way another one of the problems in the way of agreement and trade with Russia would disappear.

But your willingness and actions ultimately strengthen the EU, because the very plan for an independent EU from the US requires Russia and its raw materials! They can't otherwise, that way you are an illusory anti-EU force. Because de facto you are acting in its favor, according to the will of Russia which wants to get along with one bloc that speaks with the voice of France and Germany without others that can stand in their way!

Look above, then read Urusula and Borrell(of insider trading in renewables fame) and Charles Michel's rhetoric.
Look at Beerpong, Putin must do a 360 (pun intended)'s rhethoric.

Oh, and do you remember what Merkel and Hollande said about Minks being a sham intended to buy time for the Ukrainians?

Yes, that's what their whole plan is about! They need to call each other names! As long as there is a viable blockade, the whole plan falls apart like a house of cards under the wind. Therefore, they should not be allowed to do so.

Well we have, even a protector that is the US. Because, after all, you don't think to yourself that we are to make so much of a mess simply by stomping our feet. Someone is helping us and that someone is not Russia. This one would rather silence us, ba as it turns out in the corruption scandal, people who are against Poland for ideological reasons, are at the same time bought by Russia. (Surprise!)

The USA is after the interests of its own deep state and ruling Oligarchy and pushing its own universalist nonsense, they are a bunch of New Rome wannabes, you are just a useful puppet for them.

As far as I remember, Bulgaria is not our neighbor. And we don't have bad relations with the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Lithuania. The Czechs and Slovaks are more or less on our side. Lithuania, which has seen with its own eyes how much the Germans are worth, is looking for an agreement with us. Belarus does not like us anyway, although if Kartoshenko wants to be independent he will need our help. (Not that we exactly need him). Ukraine is for the time being dependent on our support, because it is through us that aid to it goes. So he's trying to avoid pressing us on the imprint. Only Germany doesn't like us, but they have since they lost their puppets in 2015.

I am talking about a more historic perspective.
Also all those states are small fish compared to your 3, probably soon to be 2 big neighbors.
And it is not like the Kiev Banderistas had a special love for you Poles.

And Russia is showing how threatening it is in Ukraine.

So we have two neighbors pissed off at us who happen to have always been our rivals anyway. Three friendly ones and one aspiring one. And one who once threatens us and once cozies up to us.

Where are all your pissed off neighbors, huh?

Uh huh, sure, how much is the combined population of all your nice neighbours again?


Oh, yeah, probably not even a tenth of the combined population of your friends.

 

[Agent23]

 

[Marduk]

Yeah, it isn't like I didn't link this guy:


And throughout all of this he tried but failed to burn all of Sofia and a few other shitty things.

Polish Legion in Turkey - Wikipedia

Józef Jagmin - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Well, at least this guy we got to 404.

>attempts to free ourselves of the Ottomans, as you put it

Campaigns	Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878)

Yo, why is it called Russo-Turkish war, not Bulgarian-Turkish war?

• Russian Empire
  • 15,567–30,000 killed[13][14]
  • 81,166 died of disease
  • 56,652 wounded
  • 1,713 died from wounds[13]
• Romania
  • 4,302 killed and missing
  • 3,316 wounded
  • 19,904 sick[15]
• Bulgaria
  • 2,456 killed and wounded[16]
  • Several thousand total military deaths (mostly disease)
• Serbia and Montenegro
  • 2,400 dead and wounded[16]

You were an afterthought in the grand scheme of this war, your whining about some guy going to fight Russia with Turks being some huge offense against you is pathetic.

Yeah, like what exactly?

You constantly go on and on about this gas blackmail that the Russians allegedly do, but I do not recall a single instant of that happening without a pretty huge provocation, wanna put your money where your mouth is?

And I am not saying source everything from them necessarily, but still they are the cheapest and most logical example.

>but muh provocations
Yes, sure, i know disobedience and lack of acquiescence to the interests of Moscow's wannabe empire is the greatest provocation of all.
But it's still blackmail. If Russia was a "pure business, you send money, we send gas, on time, accoording to contract, hell or high water" kind of supplier, you would have had a point. But over decades Russia has played fucky-fucky games with that for the sake of geostrategic elbow swinging, including against the various EU members, so they cannot be trusted.

‘Gas blackmail’: how Putin’s weaponised energy supplies are hurting Europe

After gas supplies through Nord Stream 1 stopped on Monday, European leaders plan for a future without Russian energy

www.theguardian.com

Russia Is Back to Blackmailing Europe Over Energy

Europe’s energy dealer is playing hardball.

foreignpolicy.com

https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/134230/pub1088.pdf

Strategic Studies Institute
U.S. Army War College, Carlisle, PA
NATURAL GAS AS AN INSTRUMENT
OF RUSSIAN STATE POWER

>cheapest
If EU really wanted cheap resources, they would make deals with neocons to take oil from under Arab's sands, everyone would be happy, except the Arabs, but no one cares about them. Shady deals with Russia with implied geopolitical plays (how is building a gas line undersea when you have land connections and can build more cheap), yeah, good luck, fuck them.
But they don't want that, and if they tried and succeeded despite being half-competent shitlibs, greens would throw a hissy fit to make them expensive with taxes again.
Meanwhile Japan and SK, with similar economic profile to Germany, without running a EU equivalent for extra benefits and with properly diversified energy sources, somehow manage, nevermind the "russophobes' of EU themselves.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Electricity-price-for-industrial-consumers-with-a-consumption-of-05-2-GWh-in-Europe_fig9_322796409

Is the cheap energy in the room with us?
In 2016 Germany has supply costs not significantly different from all the "russophobes", somehow, but even if that wasn't good enough for them, they slap on such crazy taxes on it that they, alongside with other much cheap Russian energy simps, Italy, achieve highest prices in the whole fucking EU? Where's the sense, where's the logic? They clearly don't want to have cheap energy, they don't even want to have average priced energy, they want to have the highest prices in Europe and that's what they willingly make them. Blame the greens and corrupt schemes with your idol in Kremlin, pox upon both of them.

Europe Is Heading For ‘Deep Recession’, Deindustrialization

Price of trusting Russia and listening to the greens. These two work together, whether they know and like it or not.

The EU as a whole does not have any conflict of interest with the Russians, only the expansionist Eurocracy and some in the hard support base of euro expansion do.

You cannot separate the interests of EU and Eurocracy like that, it's wishful thinking.
EU cannot exist in the current form without the Eurocracy, and Eurocracy cannot exist in its current form without the EU.

Well, them and Poland and the baltic shitholes, but I see no reason why the whole block must bend over backwards for you, if you hate the Russians so much go live in Ukraine and play live ammo tag with Vagner quisling NAFO shill.

Only if you are there too.

Oh, nice, gibberish from the RDS afflicted bloomberg.

Yeah, shout RDS every time someone counters your euroasianist wishful thinking.

 

[Agent23]

 

[Agent23]

>attempts to free ourselves of the Ottomans, as you put it

Campaigns	Russo-Turkish War (1877–1878)

Yo, why is it called Russo-Turkish war, not Bulgarian-Turkish war?

• Russian Empire
  • 15,567–30,000 killed[13][14]
  • 81,166 died of disease
  • 56,652 wounded
  • 1,713 died from wounds[13]
• Romania
  • 4,302 killed and missing
  • 3,316 wounded
  • 19,904 sick[15]
• Bulgaria
  • 2,456 killed and wounded[16]
  • Several thousand total military deaths (mostly disease)
• Serbia and Montenegro
  • 2,400 dead and wounded[16]

You were an afterthought in the grand scheme of this war, your whining about some guy going to fight Russia with Turks being some huge offense against you is pathetic.

>but muh provocations
Yes, sure, i know disobedience and lack of acquiescence to the interests of Moscow's wannabe empire is the greatest provocation of all.
But it's still blackmail. If Russia was a "pure business, you send money, we send gas, on time, accoording to contract, hell or high water" kind of supplier, you would have had a point. But over decades Russia has played fucky-fucky games with that for the sake of geostrategic elbow swinging, including against the various EU members, so they cannot be trusted.

‘Gas blackmail’: how Putin’s weaponised energy supplies are hurting Europe

After gas supplies through Nord Stream 1 stopped on Monday, European leaders plan for a future without Russian energy

www.theguardian.com

Russia Is Back to Blackmailing Europe Over Energy

Europe’s energy dealer is playing hardball.

foreignpolicy.com

https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/134230/pub1088.pdf

>cheapest
If EU really wanted cheap resources, they would make deals with neocons to take oil from under Arab's sands, everyone would be happy, except the Arabs, but no one cares about them. Shady deals with Russia with implied geopolitical plays (how is building a gas line undersea when you have land connections and can build more cheap), yeah, good luck, fuck them.
But they don't want that, and if they tried and succeeded despite being half-competent shitlibs, greens would throw a hissy fit to make them expensive with taxes again.
Meanwhile Japan and SK, with similar economic profile to Germany, without running a EU equivalent for extra benefits and with properly diversified energy sources, somehow manage, nevermind the "russophobes' of EU themselves.

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Electricity-price-for-industrial-consumers-with-a-consumption-of-05-2-GWh-in-Europe_fig9_322796409

Is the cheap energy in the room with us?
In 2016 Germany has supply costs not significantly different from all the "russophobes", somehow, but even if that wasn't good enough for them, they slap on such crazy taxes on it that they, alongside with other much cheap Russian energy simps, Italy, achieve highest prices in the whole fucking EU? Where's the sense, where's the logic? They clearly don't want to have cheap energy, they don't even want to have average priced energy, they want to have the highest prices in Europe and that's what they willingly make them. Blame the greens and corrupt schemes with your idol in Kremlin, pox upon both of them.

Price of trusting Russia and listening to the greens. These two work together, whether they know and like it or not.


You cannot separate the interests of EU and Eurocracy like that, it's wishful thinking.
EU cannot exist in the current form without the Eurocracy, and Eurocracy cannot exist in its current form without the EU.


Only if you are there too.

Yeah, shout RDS every time someone counters your euroasianist wishful thinking.

Ree more hypocrite, we all know you are a furnace shovel that can only throw insults and whataboutism around.

 

[Bacle]

@Marduk, you seem to either catastrophically misunderstand Agent23's point, or are engaged in strict "Us vs. Them" tribalism with no allowance for neutrality.

Agent23's point seems to be "fuck this whole-ass mess, we have literally no reason to fight this out there", which you are continuously stretching into active support for Russia.

Instead of "fighting to the last Ukrainian" as a fucked-up proxy war with holes the size of Jupiter for internationalist corruption, actively harming ourselves to do so to varying extents due to unnecessarily compromising access to Russian resources, what Agent23 seems to want is to carefully prepare for Russia without bearing ass to the WEF-associated globalist bullshit in the process instead of throwing away resources and being led to the money-juicer to irrational russophobia.

Do correct me if I'm wrong, @Agent23.

You are rather generously interpreting what the Vatnik is saying, and his reasoning for supporting Russia in this.

Like, his points are often self-contradictory, he is angry at Poland for things that happened in the 18th century, is angry about not having access to cheap Russian resources, and seems to both love and hate the EU, depending on how much power it gives him to defy the US.

Agent's arguments are mostly about insulting and smearing @Marduk these days, not anything substantive or factual, and he relies on Russian propaganda from a known and officially registered pedo to push his arguments.

Agent acts much like the rest of the Russia-supporting propaganda efforts; when they lose one argument for why people need to stop supporting Ukraine, they just switch track and try another motte and bailey tactic on another angle. Because at the end of the day, what really upsets Agent is not having the sweet, sweet Russian tourist and business money flowing into his nation. He never wanted to stop sucking the Bears teat, and now that he cannot, he's angry at everyone who is keeping Russia from winning.

 

[Marduk]

Ree more hypocrite, we all know you are a furnace shovel that can only throw insults and whataboutism around.

Why do i even try, just when you accidentally drag the discussion to material and measurable things like Germany's economy, gas blackmail and energy prices, i dig out all the numbers and respectable sources, you just throw a fit about insults and muh whataboutism, because you didn't encounter these things in your usual shill materials and so you have no ready, canned reply to it. Thanks for reminding me how to treat you, Kremlin's garden tool.

 

[King Arts]

It's less about same governments and more about democratic governments, who naturally don't have much interest in having leaders play power games against others who are like them.

Why doesn't Japan want so much to stop USA throwing its way around in Asia?
Why would they care so much?
Backyard? Russia and India are their main backyard concerns, and USA is not particularly buddy-buddy with either.

Ok just so I understand what you are saying. You aren't saying that nations with the same government are friendly, you are saying that democracy is special and that democracies are peaceful towards each other unlike every other government?
And leaders of democracies do play power games against each other, less against each other because there is a greater difference the Arab saying me against my brother, me and my brother against my cousin applies here. Democracies are like brothers and the other nations are more diffrent so they can play the role of the other.

As for why Japan does not try to stop the US from being in Asia. Umm well they did it was ww2, they failed lol. Same reason why the Warsaw Pact did not directly contest the Soviets. The Russians were stronger. A hypothetical democratic China would still be China the nation with the largest population in the world as long as they are moderately competent they would be a peer of the US. A peer won't accept being a junior partner that would cause tension.

>started
I have to remind you that Havana and Caracas are somehow still not in the history of USMC battles, while if USA was following the Monroe Doctrine as jealously and strongly as you are implying, they would have been, and no one could really do much about it.

Banana Wars - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Umm the U.S. has intervened in Latin America for a long time. It was not just a cold war thing to keep the communists out. Even before the soviet union existed the US invaded South American nations before the communists were even a threat. The US is not a better empire than China or Russia. From what I've seen and read it seems like nations that live close to Imperial powers hate them, while their clients/junior partners that live far away like them. For example Eastern Europe hates Russia (for good reason) yet Russian allies in the middle east or Africa like them. China's neighbors in Asia hate them, yet it's partners in Africa don't mind them, and if the US went into full isolation or yellowstone erupted Europe would happily ally with China to check Russia. Just the same America's southern neighbors don't like U.S. foreign policy and have legitimate grievances that is why they were buddy buddy with Russia back in the day. They did not just wake up one morning and say fuck America no nation just decides out of the blue they hate someone it's more complicated than that.

Which has a lot to do with the ambitions of Chinese political class and related dysfunctions of its economy. Change the system, and both will change dramatically. For one a China not interested in dickwaving against USA to keep it from intervening in Taiwan suddenly has a lot less strategic interest in holding island chains and everything related to that. Again, why isn't Japan trying to turn them into colonies the same way? It sure has the economic power, military power, and even history.
Koreans and Japanese have huge historical grievances, why aren't they in a state of cold war?
Almost as bad as Poland and Germany, yet those are kinda getting along too.

You are saying that changing the system to a democracy like America would magically change the system how? The Taiwan situation would be fixed I'll grant you, but the Uigers and Tibet would not. The US does not allow states to secede why would an America style democracy in China? Trade disputes with south east Asia would be the same Americans say America first. As a Polish person do you agree with that? Like if you had all the power would you literally put America first or would you put Poland first? I understand that since Poland is not as strong and needs the US as an ally you might have to take unfavorable trade deals sometimes but the benefits outweigh the costs. Tell me if a democratic China would be a peer to the US why would the democratic China not say China first and do the same or similar things in south east Asia, and get in conflict with the US over other trade deals?

 

[Zachowon]

Doesn't the majority of Russia not own toilets?
Why would you want to be under them?
He'll we see them stealing washer and dryers.
So obviously they need those as well.

Seems like being in the EU helps one out economically then that of being with Russia

 

[Agent23]

 

[mrttao]

Doesn't the majority of Russia not own toilets?

where did you get this idea from?