Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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If memory serves me, a lot of Poles wanted Austria-Hungary back post-Polish independence. And definitely after Germany and USSR partitioned Poland for the n-th time.

Life in Croatia during Austria-Hungary was definitely better than during either of Yugoslavias.
Austria maybe, Hungary, not so much, the Magyars were one of the main enemies of the Slavs in AH, the Magyar aristocracy also pushed for less industrailization and economic modernization because they did not want their Slavic serfs to get any ideas, also they didn't want their former underlings to have more power in the AH parliament than they formerly did.

Paradoxically, the problems that that created with the slavic population also forced AH to spend more money on defense per capita and to occupy places like Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Now, it is not like I like "Niemci" or anything, but they were still better than the Serbs, the Magyars and a few others.

EDIT: Also, @Buba
 
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not so much, the Magyars were one of the main enemies of the Slavs
Slavs who had the "misfortune" to live in the territory of the Crown of Saint Stephen, Poles were not among them so there was no major problem. They liked us very much, so much so that the Polish-Hungarian friendship is mainly maintained by them.
 
Austria maybe, Hungary, not so much, the Magyars were one of the main enemies of the Slavs in AH, the Magyar aristocracy also pushed for less industrailization and economic modernization because they did not want their Slavic serfs to get any ideas, also they didn't want their former underlings to have more power in the AH parliament than they formerly did.

Paradoxically, the problems that that created with the slavic population also forced AH to spend more money on defense per capita and to occupy places like Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Now, it is not like I like "Niemci" or anything, but they were still better than the Serbs, the Magyars and a few others.

EDIT: Also, @Buba

For Croatia at least, Hungarians were major assholes, but Croatia did have a degree of independence which allowed it to develop. I mean, look at the map I provided in the linked article:
kraljevina-jugoslavija_5be3048aa81f3_728xr.jpg


If Hungary was so bad, Croatia would not (alongside Slovenia) be one if primary drivers of the economic activity and development in both the royal and the socialist Yugoslavias.
 
For Croatia at least, Hungarians were major assholes, but Croatia did have a degree of independence which allowed it to develop. I mean, look at the map I provided in the linked article:
kraljevina-jugoslavija_5be3048aa81f3_728xr.jpg


If Hungary was so bad, Croatia would not (alongside Slovenia) be one if primary drivers of the economic activity and development in both the royal and the socialist Yugoslavias.
Well, I am sure a lot of the Austrians wanted to curtail their power, and the nature of AH did leave some leeway for local development, probably because A and H wanted to do whatever they wanted in their own lands...
 
Murika has turned into a Mix of late Hapsburg HRE and Brezhnev-era USSR with a big dash of Wiemar, IMHO.
I am honestly wondering how Biden has not tried to give Harrison Ford a medal for "nabbin dat Russkie sub..." cookie for the references. :D

And the Romans could be huge bastards even to their allies and conquered territories that got out of hand and their own allies.

Also, I just love the whole "The Central Powers were literally Hitler" spiel, especially if coning from the likes of the Pole.

The Krauts and the Austro-Hungarians actually had cleaner, more democratic and decentralized governments than the West did, life for Serbs and Bosniacs under Austria-Hungary was actually better than in Serbia proper, and Russia backing those [10 pages of "niceties" about the neighbors removed], TL;DR Serbia was a shithole that would be fine putting large VAT on textbooks but not on alcohol, was the Russians dumbest blunders, ever.
However, the Kadet party and the Russian liberal press pushed heavily for that, and those were covertly financed by the French and British, who basically wanted Russia as a sacrificial lamb to eat up Central Power resources.

A more balanced peace without nonsense like the League of Nations would have happened and the European balance of pwoer would have been restored without Wilson's idiotic, doctrinaire meddling.
It took a hundred fucking years to get the democrats to admit Wilson was a piece of ahit
 
Any Russian Orthodox clergy ordained pre-1990 had contact with the KGB. The higher their rank, the more likely they were to have some sort of affiliation. Not all, of course, but the highest ranks were almost certain to have double affiliation, if you catch my meaning ...
Some "rebelled" after 1991.

As to Polish nostalgia for A-H in ex-Galicia - nothing more than nostalgia for "Good Old Times".

@Aldarion
Wonderful map! Nicely shows what shit job did A-H do in B-H. And that both Hungary and Croatia were lagging behind Cisleithenia. Although Dalmatia is interestingly illiterate ...
The worst off areas seem to those which pre-1913 were in A-H (B-H and Novi Pazar) and Ottoman Kosovo, South Serbia, paerts of Macedonia) hands? Pre 1913 "Old Serbia" and Crnagora are showing higher literacy rates ...
 
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@Aldarion
Wonderful map! Nicely shows what shit job did A-H do in B-H. And that both Hungary and Croatia were lagging behind Cisleithenia. Although Dalmatia is interestingly illiterate ...
The worst off areas seem to those which pre-1913 were in A-H (B-H and Novi Pazar) and Ottoman Kosovo, South Serbia, paerts of Macedonia) hands? Pre 1913 "Old Serbia" and Crnagora are showing higher literacy rates ...

Keep in mind that Austria-Hungary only had Bosnia for some ten years, after literal centuries of the Ottoman rule. "Annexation" of 1878. was merely military occupation. And yes, Slovenia is better off than Croatia, but you can see a very clear border between Austro-Hungarian areas and those that were not part of the A-H for a long time, or at all.

And assuming you are not being sarcastic, nice job completely misreading the map. Worst-off areas are those which pre-1908. were part of the Ottoman Empire:
AtlBalk1890.jpg
 
In my arrogance I may have assumed too much ... so, between 1978 and 1908 B-H and Novi Pazar were under A-H military occupation, the Civilian side - including education, being handled by Ottoman (or Ottoman designed) institutions?
Now I do remember reading somewhere about A-H being "hands off" in B-H, not really changing anything pre-1908 ...

Yes, Dalmatia aside, the 1739 border is glaringly obvious,

I was not sarcastic but I worded my text poorly :(
What I wanted to say is that B-H and the Sandżak and areas under Ottoman rule pre 1912 seem to share the same low, literacy rates.
 
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In my arrogance I may have assumed too much ... so, between 1978 and 1908 B-H and Novi pazar were under A-H military occupation, the Civilian side - including education, being handled by Ottoman (or Ottoman designed) institutions.

Yes, Dalmatia aside, the 1739 border is glaringly obvious,

I was not sarcastic but I worded my text poorly :(
What I wanted to say is that B-H and the Snadżak and areas under Ottoman rule pre 1912 seem to share the same low, low, literacy rates.

Yeah, they do. I'm not sure why Dalmatia is that badly off, but other than that, is is obvious which areas were Ottoman from 18th to 20th centurieas and which were not.
 

So Putin called the war a war in his last speech (about how he wants to end the war, but the mean west won't let it end on the terms he wants of stealing parts of Ukraine), and this has landed him in hot water domestically because relatively powerful people were jailed for 7 years for doing the same (instead of calling it a special military operation) before now.
 
No M-T or Joseph, but Venetian rule? Dalmatia truly became Austrian only in 1815 ...
Or simply piss poor villages in high mountains?

I'd say it is probably a combination of the two. That, and perhaps also the fact that Dalmatia was hit rather badly by a number of natural disasters (such as grapevine diseases) during the Austrian rule, leading to mass emmigration.
 
No M-T or Joseph, but Venetian rule? Dalmatia truly became Austrian only in 1815 ...
Or simply piss poor villages in high mountains?


What Italian Rule?
IIRC there was no Italy as a distinct political entity prior to Garibaldi and the count of Cavour, and that happened mid-century, prior to that the place was a patchwork of entities,some foreign dominated, some Napoleonic puppet states.

Keep in mind that Austria-Hungary only had Bosnia for some ten years, after literal centuries of the Ottoman rule. "Annexation" of 1878. was merely military occupation. And yes, Slovenia is better off than Croatia, but you can see a very clear border between Austro-Hungarian areas and those that were not part of the A-H for a long time, or at all.

And assuming you are not being sarcastic, nice job completely misreading the map. Worst-off areas are those which pre-1908. were part of the Ottoman Empire:
AtlBalk1890.jpg


Anywaaay, you know what time it is?

TIME TO SHIT ON THE COMSUS TO THE WEST!!!!!!!!!!! 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏 😏
This record might have mattered less if there had been marked growth in the commercial and industrial sectors, but here, too, the picture was bleak, even by Balkan standards. The rural population had poor access to markets and there was not much in the way of starter industries, such as the textiles mills that helped to drive industrial growth in neighbouring Bulgaria.73 Under these conditions, Serbian economic development depended upon inward investment – the first effort to pack and export plum jam on an industrial basis was launched by employees of a Budapest fruit-processing company; the silk and wine booms of the late nineteenth century were likewise triggered by foreign entrepreneurs. But inward investment remained sluggish, in part because foreign firms were put off by the xenophobia, corrupt officials and underdeveloped business ethics they encountered when they attempted to set up operations in Serbia. Even in areas where it was government policy to encourage investment, the harassment of foreign businesses by local authorities remained a serious problem.74

Investment in Serbia’s human capital was just as unimpressive: in 1900, there were still only four teaching colleges for all Serbia, half of all elementary-school teachers had no pedagogical training, most school classes were not held in buildings designed for the purpose and only around one third of children actually attended school. All these shortcomings reflected the cultural preferences of a rural population that cared little for education and saw schools as alien institutions imposed by the government. In 1905, pressed to ratify a new revenue source, the peasant-dominated assembly of the Skupština chose to tax school books rather than home distillation. The result was a strikingly low rate of literacy, ranging from 27 per cent in the northern districts of the kingdom to only 12 per cent in the south-east.75

This grim landscape of ‘growth without development’ bears on our story in a number of ways. It meant that Serbian society remained unusually homogeneous both in socioeconomic and cultural terms. The bond between urban life and the folkways of peasant oral culture, with its powerful mythical narratives, was never severed. Even Belgrade – where the literacy rate in 1900 was only 21 per cent – remained a city of rural immigrants, a world of ‘peasant urbanites’ deeply influenced by the culture and kinship structures of traditional rural society.76 In this environment, the development of modern consciousness was experienced not as an evolution from a previous way of understanding the world, but rather as a dissonant overlayering of modern attitudes on to a way of being that was still enchanted by traditional beliefs and values.77

This highly distinctive economic and cultural conjuncture helps to explain several salient features of pre-war Serbia. In an economy so lacking in opportunities for ambitious and talented young men, the army remained the biggest show in town. And this in turn helps to account for the fragility of the civilian authorities in the face of challenges from the military command structure – a crucial factor in the crisis that engulfed Serbia in the summer of 1914. However, it was also true that the partisan warfare of irregular militias and guerrilla bands which was such a central theme in the story of Serbia’s emergence as an independent nation owed its durability to the persistence of a peasant culture that remained wary of the regular army. For a government confronted with an increasingly arrogant military culture and lacking the organic connection with a large and prosperous educated class that underpinned other nineteenth-century parliamentary systems, nationalism represented the single most potent political instrument and cultural force. The almost universal enthusiasm for the annexation of yet unredeemed Serb lands drew not only on the mythical passions embedded in popular culture, but also on the land-hunger of a peasantry whose plots were growing smaller and less productive. Under these conditions, the argument – however dubious – that Serbia’s economic woes were the fault of Vienna’s punitive tariffs and the stranglehold of Austrian and Hungarian capital could not fail to meet with the most enthusiastic approbation. These constraints also fed Belgrade’s obsession with securing an outlet to the sea that would supposedly enable it to break out of backwardness. The relative weakness of commercial and industrial development ensured that Serbia’s rulers remained dependent upon international finance for the military expenditures they required in order to pursue an active foreign policy. And this in turn helps to explain the deepening integration of Serbia into France’s web of alliances after 1905, which was rooted in both financial and geopolitical imperatives.
....
A recurring theme was the economic degradation of their Bosnian countryfolk by the Austrian authorities (a complaint that overlooked the fact that Bosnia was in fact more industrialized and more prosperous in terms of per capita income than most of the Serbian heartland)

...
Gradualism and continuity’ characterized Austrian rule in all areas of Bosnia-Herzegovina where they encountered traditional institutions.34 Where possible, the laws and institutions inherited from the Ottoman era were harmonized and clarified, rather than discarded out of hand. But the Habsburg administration did facilitate the emancipation of subject peasants by means of a one-off payment; over 40,000 Bosnian kmets purchased their autonomy in this way between the occupation and the outbreak of war in 1914. In any case, the Serbian kmets who remained within the old estate system on the eve of the First World War were not especially badly off by the standards of early twentieth-century peasant Europe; they were probably more prosperous than their counterparts in Dalmatia or southern Italy.

The Austrian administration also did much to increase the productivity of agriculture and industry in Bosnia-Herzegovina. They set up model farms, including a vineyard and a fish-farm, introduced rudimentary agronomic training for country schoolteachers and even established an agricultural college in Ilidze, at a time when no such institution existed in neighbouring Serbia. If the uptake of new methods was still relatively slow, this had more to do with the resistance of the peasantry to innovation than with Austrian negligence. There was also a massive influx of investment capital. A road and railway network appeared, including some of the best mountain roads in Europe. These infrastructural projects served a partly military purpose, to be sure, but there was also massive investment across a range of sectors, including mining, metallurgy, forestry and chemicals production. The pace of industrialization peaked during the administration of Count Benjamin Kállay (1882–1903) and the consequence was a surge in industrial output (12.4 per cent per annum on average over the period 1881–1913) without precedent elsewhere in the Balkan lands.35 In short, the Habsburg administration treated the new provinces as a showcase whose purpose was to ‘demonstrate the humanity and efficiency of Habsburg rule’; by 1914, Bosnia-Herzegovina had been developed to a level comparable with the rest of the double monarchy.36

The worst blemish on the record of the Austrian administration in Bosnia-Herzegovina was the appallingly low rate of literacy and school attendance, which was worse even than Serbia’s.37 But this was not the consequence of an Austrian policy of mass stultification. The Austrians built primary schools – nearly 200 of them – not to mention three high schools, a teacher training college and a technical institute. It was not a stellar effort, but it was not outright neglect either. The problem lay partly in getting peasants to send their children to school.38 Only in 1909, after the formal annexation of the provinces, was compulsory primary education introduced.

As to our other friends the Magyars:

Conflict was programmed into the system, because the Compromise required that the two imperial ‘halves’ renegotiate every ten years the customs union by which revenues and taxation were shared out between them. The demands of the Hungarians became bolder with every review of the union.2 And there was little in the Compromise to recommend it to the political elites of the other national minorities, who had in effect been placed under the tutelage of the two ‘master races’. The first post-Compromise Hungarian prime minister, Gyula Andrássy, captured this aspect of the settlement when he commented to his Austrian counterpart: ‘You look after your Slavs and we’ll look after ours.’3 The last decades before the outbreak of war were increasingly dominated by the struggle for national rights among the empire’s eleven official nationalities – Germans, Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Romanians, Ruthenians, Poles and Italians.

How these challenges were met varied between the two imperial halves. The Hungarians dealt with the nationalities problem mainly by behaving as if it didn’t exist. The kingdom’s electoral franchise extended to only 6 per cent of the population because it was pegged to a property qualification that favoured the Magyars, who made up the bulk of the wealthier strata of the population. The result was that Magyar deputies, though they represented only 48.1 per cent of the population, controlled over 90 per cent of the parliamentary seats. The 3 million Romanians of Transylvania, the largest of the kingdom’s national minorities, comprised 15.4 per cent of the population, but held only five of the Hungarian parliament’s 400-odd seats.4 From the late 1870s, moreover, the Hungarian government pursued a campaign of aggressive ‘Magyarization’. Education laws imposed the use of the Magyar language on all state and faith schools, even those catering to children of kindergarten age. Teachers were required to be fluent in Magyar and could be dismissed if they were found to be ‘hostile to the [Hungarian] state’. This degradation of language rights was underwritten by harsh measures against ethnic minority activists.5 Serbs from the Vojvodina in the south of the kingdom, Slovaks from the northern counties and Romanians from the Grand Duchy of Transylvania did occasionally collaborate in pursuit of minority objectives, but with little effect, since they could muster only a small number of mandates.

So, yeah, AH, while not the 'Literally Hitler' dictatorship usually assumed by some westerners, was pretty dysfunctional.

TL; DR, looks a lot like the EU.

Source for the above: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/18669169-the-sleepwalkers
 
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What Italian Rule?
You read too fast - I wrote Venetian.

At some point somebody mentioned A-H's high spending on defence due to internal tensions.
That is not true.
For decades before WWI A-H had spent the least among Great Powers on its military - and that is why, alongside another small spender, Italy (which additionally wasted a large part of its meagre military budget spending on a Big Penis navy) - its military was so baaaad in WWI.
AH, while not the 'Literally Hitler' dictatorship usually assumed by some westerners, was pretty dysfunctional.
Dysfunctional in large part because
"FJ suXX!"

EOT for me, sorry for EPIC Balkan Derail
 
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You read too fast - I wrote Venetian.

At some point somebody mentioned A-H's high spending on defence due to internal tensions.
That is not true.
For decades before WWI A-H had spent the least among Great Powers on its military - and that is why, alongside another small spender, Italy (which additionally wasted a large part of its meagre military budget spending on a Big Penis navy) - its military was so baaaad in WWI.

Dysfunctional in large part because
"FJ suXX!"

EOT for me, sorry for EPIC Balkan Derail
Oops!
Anyway.
FJ or no FJ, that empire was too poliglot to work properly, especially with opportunistic megalomaniacs like the Serbs trying to take a chunk out of it.

Serbia back then kinda-sorta reminds me of another slavic country right now, you can guess which. :D
 
Oops!
Anyway.
FJ or no FJ, that empire was too poliglot to work properly, especially with opportunistic megalomaniacs like the Serbs trying to take a chunk out of it.

Serbia back then kinda-sorta reminds me of another slavic country right now, you can guess which. :D
Russia? Seeing as the Russians were agitating in the Balkans and supplying agents provocateur, funds, weapons and training to the separatists I'd say they haven't changed. New Name same Modus Operandi.
 
Poland was established by Viking slave traders! Yay, I so Scandinavian! Me Buba Bubasson now!
Woot! Woot!
Same applies to Ukraine and Russia, BTW ...

Bullshit.Russia was made by Vikings,but Poland by GreatMoravia refugees.We do not have any important strongholds - till 910AD,just after GreatMoravia was destroyed by hungarians,and it King and his son vanished/not died/ in 905AD.
Those strongholds were build first in Małopolska/LittlePoland/,later in Poznańskie.
Only stone Palace in polish state was build about 940AD in Poznań,one of polish capitols,with christian chapel - which mean,that rulers were arleady christians.

Ther is no tracks of any viking settlements there before 966 AD,when state was christianed.After that they come - as merc for polish rulers.They do not established anything there,and never take power.

Why hide it? Kings of GreatMoravia was Kings independent from HRE emperors who kicked their asses few times,and ruled current East germany territory.
I undarstandt,why Piast hide fact that they were descendents of GreatMoravia Kings - Considering how germans ALWAYS reacted to slavis states being free,it was smart behaviour.

You claim,that vikings made polish state - FIRST,there is no viking settlement there before 966AD,when state arleady existed.
SECOND - nobody in medieval times hide their viking ancestors.
GreatMoravian ancestors - slavic rulers must hide it from germans.

MERRY CHRISTMAS!
 
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