Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[DarthOne]

 

[Tiamat]

Just for the record, you asked me to post an explanation, I gave one. You're posting memes. But hey, your choice.

 

[DarthOne]

Just for the record, you asked me to post an explanation, I gave one. You're posting memes. But hey, your choice.

Except that post wasn’t even addressed to you, so I have no idea what you’re complaining about.

 

[Tiamat]

Except that post wasn’t even addressed to you, so I have no idea what you’re complaining about.

Sorry, damn ADHD kicking in again. I gave an explanation as to why I didn't think so highly of your meme about Benny Johnson, when you seemed to indicate I was attacking him and not stating my position or whatnot.

But again, if you're just gonna shitpost memes, your choice. I'm not gonna change your opinion obviously, and you're not going to change mine.

 

[Zachowon]

He banned the Russian orthodox church.
Because the leader of said Church also is a puppet of Putin.

And you do know that Russia Wagner has literal nazis in it. Far worse ones then that if old azov.

But you wouldn't know that. Would you

 

[mrttao]

Because the leader of said Church also is a puppet of Putin.

So, now I am curious.
Was he actually.
or is this another one of those "vatnik/tankie" accusations I keep on seeing flying about?

 

[Marduk]

So, now I am curious.
Was he actually.
or is this another one of those "vatnik/tankie" accusations I keep on seeing flying about?

There is evidence that the previous patriarch was a KGB agent...

Russian Patriarch 'was KGB spy'

A secret Soviet-era document uncovered in Estonia suggests that Patriarch Alexy II, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church and spiritual leader of tens of millions of Christians, was a fully fledged KGB agent.

www.theguardian.com

There is evidence that he got rich off doing smuggling with the old one and getting away with it...

Orthodoxy, Oil, Tobacco, and Wine: Do They Mix?

www.eastwestreport.org

He's just like any oligarch:

Patriarch cyril's palace. Where does Patriarch Kirill live?

actionvideo.ru

And last but not least, he's an old guy, ever wondered what was he doing before the 90's?

Kirill, the Patriarch in league with Putin

Until very recently, Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, leader of the Russian Orthodox Church, was most famous for being the owner of a phantom wristwatch. It had the magical property of disappearing from sight, visible to onlookers only as a reflection. Don’t believe me? Google ‘Kirill’ and ‘watch’...

www.spectator.co.uk

His superiors in the KGB, that is, not the Orthodox Church. As a young priest and bishop, Kirill spent years infiltrating the World Council of Churches (WCC) and other international bodies on behalf of the Soviet Union.


The evidence is set out in a paper entitled ‘The Mikhailov Files: Patriarch Kirill and the KGB’, published by the historian and human rights activist Felix Corley in 2018. His sources are documents from the KGB archives in Moscow which, he writes, ‘were seen by a number of researchers after the archives were briefly opened in the wake of the failed August 1991 coup, but access was then closed again after the Russian Orthodox leadership protested against the extent of the revelations’.


The panic was understandable. The then patriarch, Alexy, was himself a KGB agent. No religious leaders were allowed out of the country unless they were doubling as spies, and that included Catholics, Muslims and Buddhists from the USSR. So it goes without saying that Father Kirill would have been one. What’s interesting is the sinister nature of the tasks to which he was assigned.

Also the highest ranking eastern block defector confirms this:

According to Pacepa, ‘Kirill/Mikhailov’s main task was to involve the WCC in spreading the new liberation theology throughout Latin America’. Pacepa also repeated a claim by Moscow News that Patriarch Kirill was worth $4 billion in 2006, partly thanks to abusing his Church’s bizarre privilege of importing duty-free cigarettes into Russia.

 

[Agent23]

Daymn Timoshenko is still hot!

So, now I am curious.
Was he actually.
or is this another one of those "vatnik/tankie" accusations I keep on seeing flying about?

Chucrh corruption is not out the ordinary for any country, especially poor places that got smashed economically a few decades ago.
We have had cases of priests doing drugs, selling drugs and otherwise profiteering, including one that ran a prostitution ring, but I somehow doubt that they were all run by Mmmmmuskoooovvvv.


In any case, as we orthodox are Caesaro-Papists and the churches have a much more national character than the millennia old transnational organization that is the Vatican usually the church tries to be patriotic and try to be in good relations with the local government/heads of state, since the Emperor/Tzar/Knyaz is usually the head of the church.

I mean, one Byzantine emperor had it with the massive amounts of money the Church was hoarding and started a wave of iconoclasty, culminating with him making priests run around naked on the hypodrome in Constantinople and married them off to hookers.

There is evidence that the previous patriarch was a KGB agent...

Russian Patriarch 'was KGB spy'

A secret Soviet-era document uncovered in Estonia suggests that Patriarch Alexy II, the head of the Russian Orthodox Church and spiritual leader of tens of millions of Christians, was a fully fledged KGB agent.

www.theguardian.com

There is evidence that he got rich off doing smuggling with the old one and getting away with it...

Orthodoxy, Oil, Tobacco, and Wine: Do They Mix?

www.eastwestreport.org

He's just like any oligarch:

Patriarch cyril's palace. Where does Patriarch Kirill live?

actionvideo.ru

And last but not least, he's an old guy, ever wondered what was he doing before the 90's?

Kirill, the Patriarch in league with Putin

Until very recently, Patriarch Kirill of Moscow, leader of the Russian Orthodox Church, was most famous for being the owner of a phantom wristwatch. It had the magical property of disappearing from sight, visible to onlookers only as a reflection. Don’t believe me? Google ‘Kirill’ and ‘watch’...

www.spectator.co.uk

Also the highest ranking eastern block defector confirms this:

Paid for your indulgences?

What about the charges for eating fat on a fast day?

Also, you can't get a cleaner Papacy than a Borgia one, or a Medici one, which reminds me, most of the biggest accounts in the Medici banks were owned by cardinals. 😂

And I love how a rando Russian site in English must automatically be true...

• the death of Pope John Paul 1, which conspiracy theorists believe was due to his penchant for reform
• The Banco Ambrosiano scandal – this Italian bank – touted as a “catholic bank” was embroiled in huge corruption investigations – and the Central Bank of Vatican City was its majority shareholder. There were deaths associated with the dealings too!
• The missing 50 million – in 2018 the Vatican charged a former bank president with embezzlement and laundering
• The Clearstream Scandal – tangled up with the Banco Ambrosiano scandal, the clearing company also experienced deaths and underhand dealings
• Dodgy political dealings. Some claim Vatican City bankers hoarded
  Nazi gold, or used CIA money to support political agendas in developing countries
• Allegations that they were involved in facilitating the purchase of weapons in the Falklands War. These missiles were used against British forces. It is rumoured that the Argentines, through Peru, bought the weapons from France

The Vatican Bank Scandal

The scandal at the Vatican bank

10 Scandals That Rocked The Vatican - Listverse

 

[AmosTrask]

YES! Russia's only semi-operational Aircraft Carrier on fire in drydock. It may be engine failure or it could be Ukraine. Either case it's out of action!

 

[Marduk]

Paid for your indulgences?

Paid for some FSB agent's yacht?
Funny you need shit from centuries in the past to simp for Russia now.

What about the charges for eating fat on a fast day?

Lol, as above.

Also, you can't get a cleaner Papacy than a Borgia one, or a Medici one, which reminds me, most of the biggest accounts in the Medici banks were owned by cardinals. 😂

I'm starting to believe your history book for non-Orthodox parts of the world ended somewhere around late middle ages.

And I love how a rando Russian site in English must automatically be true...

Funny that you have no arguments against it.

The Vatican Bank Scandal

The scandal at the Vatican bank

10 Scandals That Rocked The Vatican - Listverse

Other than Catholic church corrupt too, lol. At least it's not invading anyone since centuries, and it's head doesn't glow.

 

[mrttao]

There is evidence that the previous patriarch was a KGB agent...

I see a news article from fake news company that states "a document was found proving it"
they don't even post the document in question. just refer to it as existing.

Most of the other links are "he is rich and abuses his position for wealth"
well no shit. corrupt churches news at 11.
But "rich" != puppet of putin.

I would not be surprised if he really was sent by the USSR KGB to infiltrate the church. Many church leaders were as part of the KGB bid to destroy religion.

But putin has no authority over them.
The USSR collapsed, then a new russian democracy rose... which was promptly usurped by Pun who fancies himself the new tsar.

Anyone sent by the KGB to infiltrate a church 50+ years ago, decades before putin took over, is going to be abusing their position to make money rather than being a "puppet of putin".
"He met with putin once decades ago" is not even remotely showing he is controlled by him either.

What does putin even have to offer them right now? His nation is in ruins both economically and militarily.

Is Ukraine a puppet of putin because 50 years ago it was controlled by the USSR?

 

[Knowledgeispower]

He is taunting the UN for the international warrant on him for murder, war crimes, interfering in the USA electoral system with bribery and hacking for which the US and others have tried and convicted him in absentia. While setting himself up as the strongest of the slew of strongman candidates for succeeding Putin.

At this point put a quarter of a billion dollar bounty on his ass.

 

[Marduk]

Is Ukraine a puppet of putin because 50 years ago it was controlled by the USSR?

Did you even read the article?
Starting with the church being allowed to make bank on duty free cigarettes...
If Putin didn't like what he's doing, this loophole would be goneso a long time ago.
If Putin wasn't happy with him, he would be dead or in prison.
Hence, with a position this high and vulnerable to the whims of Russian state, and a history of getting favors from KGB (as it explains, in Soviet Union one does not simply go touring the world, yet he was allowed to), certainly has a relationship with the ex-KGB\now FSB, and it's a positive relationship.

Is Ukraine a puppet of putin because 50 years ago it was controlled by the USSR?

It used to be, and look at what the ex-KGB colonel is doing now that it stopped.
Guess what would he be doing to anyone even more exposed to his reach who tried to leave such control.

 

[King Arts]

I mean, one Byzantine emperor had it with the massive amounts of money the Church was hoarding and started a wave of iconoclasty, culminating with him making priests run around naked on the hypodrome in Constantinople and married them off to hookers.

Which Emperor did this?

 

[AmosTrask]

At this point put a quarter of a billion dollar bounty on his ass.

There is an American bounty but the contact number only works I'm the continental USA. So I guess from their POV there are bigger fish to go after.

He's a destabilizing factor in the Russian chain of command so I think that plays a part in the USA's stance on him.

The funny thing people forget is that the Soviet Army was feared, because of the highly experienced and elite troops of the Ukrainian SSR. 150 divisions of the best equipment and training the resources of the entire Union could put together to spearhead the invasion of the West. Now that same institutional knowledge combined with Modern Western Military tactics and strategy is being put to use to fight the Russians. Lol.

Even funnier that Hungary is pro-Russian, but not enough to resist taking all Russian infrastructure and liquid assets in Hungary. They seized all Russian owned companies, funds, bonds and stocks held in Hungarian institutions.

Then there is the Russian Liberation Army. Tens of thousands of Russians in a militia that has joined the Ukrainians in fighting Russia.

 

[Agent23]

Which Emperor did this?

I think Leo V the Armenian.

 

[Aldarion]

You could use exactly the same arguments for not supporting the French in WW1 or the French and Soviets in WW2, or South Korea and Chinese Nationalists in Cold War, and so on.
As the saying goes, ask not if they are bastards, ask if they are our bastards.
Unfortunately the rival powers would be in danger of laughing themselves to death if you expected them to follow this rule too.

For one at least it's not Afghanistan, and the investment in fighting your enemies by proxy actually pays off in said enemies being fought properly.

Difference is that United States nowadays tend to use language of rather lofty principles ("freedom", "democracy" and so on) to justify their involvement in stuff.

Sure, support Ukraine, but at least be honest why. Because if you lie to other people, and even to yourselves, as to why you are doing something... you end up confusing yourselves, getting stuck in a permanent mission creep, and in the end, either achieving nothing (best case scenario) or making things even worse than they used to be (most likely scenario). It is kinda like Communism: a lot more things become justifiable when you justify them with lofty ideals.

And it is just assholish as well.

After all, some of the most successful contenders in this context were at their time considered the peak of civilized and fair governance, starting with Rome.

Roman civilized governance considered of genociding anybody who opposed them. Sure, they were OK rulers once they conquered you... but until then, they'd make a desert and call it peace.

 

[Marduk]

Difference is that United States nowadays tend to use language of rather lofty principles ("freedom", "democracy" and so on) to justify their involvement in stuff.

Sure, support Ukraine, but at least be honest why. Because if you lie to other people, and even to yourselves, as to why you are doing something... you end up confusing yourselves, getting stuck in a permanent mission creep, and in the end, either achieving nothing (best case scenario) or making things even worse than they used to be (most likely scenario). It is kinda like Communism: a lot more things become justifiable when you justify them with lofty ideals.

And it is just assholish as well.

Yeah, the level of public discourse about it sucks, but at least some of the public doesn't want honest, they want simple and feel-good, and it's far from being limited to this particular topic or even geopolitics in general.

Though unlike Afghanistan even the semi-professional sources are able to explain Ukraine situation in terms of interests, while in case of Afghanistan it's meme grade nation building stuff that everyone knows doesn't work but they do it anyway because no one has a better idea they would be allowed to try.

Roman civilized governance considered of genociding anybody who opposed them. Sure, they were OK rulers once they conquered you... but until then, they'd make a desert and call it peace.

Yes. And it still was far from the nastiest option around at the time.

 

[Agent23]

Difference is that United States nowadays tend to use language of rather lofty principles ("freedom", "democracy" and so on) to justify their involvement in stuff.

Sure, support Ukraine, but at least be honest why. Because if you lie to other people, and even to yourselves, as to why you are doing something... you end up confusing yourselves, getting stuck in a permanent mission creep, and in the end, either achieving nothing (best case scenario) or making things even worse than they used to be (most likely scenario). It is kinda like Communism: a lot more things become justifiable when you justify them with lofty ideals.

And it is just assholish as well.



Roman civilized governance considered of genociding anybody who opposed them. Sure, they were OK rulers once they conquered you... but until then, they'd make a desert and call it peace.

Murika has turned into a Mix of late Hapsburg HRE and Brezhnev-era USSR with a big dash of Wiemar, IMHO.
I am honestly wondering how Biden has not tried to give Harrison Ford a medal for "nabbin dat Russkie sub..." cookie for the references.

And the Romans could be huge bastards even to their allies and conquered territories that got out of hand and their own allies.

Also, I just love the whole "The Central Powers were literally Hitler" spiel, especially if coning from the likes of the Pole.

The Krauts and the Austro-Hungarians actually had cleaner, more democratic and decentralized governments than the West did, life for Serbs and Bosniacs under Austria-Hungary was actually better than in Serbia proper, and Russia backing those [10 pages of "niceties" about the neighbors removed], TL;DR Serbia was a shithole that would be fine putting large VAT on textbooks but not on alcohol, was the Russians dumbest blunders, ever.
However, the Kadet party and the Russian liberal press pushed heavily for that, and those were covertly financed by the French and British, who basically wanted Russia as a sacrificial lamb to eat up Central Power resources.

A more balanced peace without nonsense like the League of Nations would have happened and the European balance of pwoer would have been restored without Wilson's idiotic, doctrinaire meddling.

 

[Aldarion]

The Krauts and the Austro-Hungarians actually had cleaner, more democratic and decentralized governments than the West did, life for Serbs and Bosniacs under Austria-Hungary was actually better than in Serbia proper, and Russia backing those [10 pages of "niceties" about the neighbors removed], TL;DR Serbia was a shithole that would be fine putting large VAT on textbooks but not on alcohol, was the Russians dumbest blunders, ever.

If memory serves me, a lot of Poles wanted Austria-Hungary back post-Polish independence. And definitely after Germany and USSR partitioned Poland for the n-th time.

Life in Croatia during Austria-Hungary was definitely better than during either of Yugoslavias.