Responding by snipping out context and pretending I said something I didn't with regards to Ukraine.
You were just looking for a 'gatcha' or trolling moment against me, otherwise you wouldn't have tried to take that snip out of context.
Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion
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You were just looking for a 'gatcha' or trolling moment against me, otherwise you wouldn't have tried to take that snip out of context.
Arch Dornan
Oh, lovely. They've sent me a mo-ron.
What kind of support are you thinking of?
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
No, that was just me following the other poster's logic with his support for Ukrainian identity politics by countering his virtue signal with a "and what about the other guys with their identity" argument.
Frankly, I find the biological desire of humans and other social animals to form warring tribes tiresome at best and dangerous at the worst, but until we all become immortal cyborg libertarians that run on zero point energy and self-replicating nanotech the nation state and the ethnically-based tribe will probably be the fulcrum of our species.
And if I have to play the tribes game I choose the biggest and most well-armed tribe of my fellow Slavs.
There was no such thing as an Ukrainian nationality before 1917.
Ukraine was cobbled together by Lenin.
This was all covered in the DonBass and Invasion threads.
The Ukraine here, was just a piece of Russia, and the Ukrainian "language", which as near as I can tell is some weird Polish or Serbian dialect is spoken primarily west of the Dneper river.
I am talking about the EU, but yeah, when you mention it I wouldn't mind restoring the old Bulgarian and proto-Bulgar empires in one entity:
TBH we have a better claim to those lands than the Ukrainians, since we held them for both longer and earlier than there were any Rus there.
BTW a lot of these maps were politically correct in relation to the USSR, so our Empires were probably even bigger.
In any case, restoring it is probably a bit less far-fetched than the Poles restoring the Commonwealth they are so obsessed with and Marduk getting his empire.
Lenin gave Ukraine to germans,who created ukrainian puppet state in 1918.But becouse most people there do not considered themselves as ukrainians but locals,state fell without german support.
But ukrainian nation arleady existed,becouse austrian created it after 1866.
To compare - current russian nation was made by Putin after 1999,becouse old russians was either genocided or turned into soviet people after 1917.
So,ukrainians are currently older nation then russians.
P.S you said :
And if I have to play the tribes game I choose the biggest and most well-armed tribe of my fellow Slavs.
Russians never were slavs,first they were mixed with vikings,later with mongols.And now are soviet people parroting what ruling KGB mafia say.
Just like you,by the way.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
My people were originally Mongolo-Tatars(Or Persians, or Afghans, or Chinese) before they mixed with the Slavs, then later we assimilated Pechenegs, Kumans and other Turkic tribes and probably the random Greek bystander as well as some of the native Thraceian populace on the Balkans.
Now we are culturally and probably predominantly genetically Slavic, like the Russians, we were under hundreds of years of control by another, pretty despotic Turkic group, like the Russians, we are Orthodox, like the Russians, we use Cyrillic(which we invented and the Rus stole) like the Russians, we were under the commie boot, just like the Russians, we got whipped into shape by an outside force(Varyags in the case of Russians and Asparuch's proto-Bulgars in our case), we were both heavily culturally influenced by Byzantium.
So, yeah, I have a hell of a lot more identity to connect me with the Russians than to the diseased, politically-correct, libtard-run west, and in the Slavic world they are the biggest, meanest dog.
What of it?
Moreover, what do you Poles and your Ukrainian proxies and American masters have to offer?
Democracy, pfeh, go read The Myth of the Rational Voter and The Machiavellians and maybe then we can talk.
Slavs as early as the 4th century, to quote one Byzantine scholar, "decided everything in democracy" fat good that did them, quarrelsome, disunited and easy pickings for any crusaders and byzantines.
Capitalism?
Capitalism in the west has turned into a politically-correct, corporatist, virtues-signalling joke, with a fat sprinkling of socialism for the rich whenever the bullsint being peddled fails.
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Now,young padawan,i see your anger.You want big brother Russia to save Bulgary from turks and USA.
There is One problem -
YOUR RUSSIA WAS MURDERED BY SOVIETS,AND CEASED TO EXIST.
What you have now is KGB mafias ruling over soviet people.Which could not save themselves from China taking Syberia from them.
Yeah, right. Russia invaded his country, but somehow he's the one who started the war. Sounds like someone's getting high on their own farts to me, alright.
He didn't start the war, but he did everything he could to provoke the lunatic next door and evidence seems to suggest he did that under the orders of our state department.
Y'know the guys who had the US IC interfere in an election and then overthrow a democratically elected President? Specifically an American President at the behest of a hostile foreign power no less?
What we should not be doing is trusting any of our experts, or trusting any of our authorities.
We need to assume they are all traitors and all pushing us into war because it benefits Beijing.
Or we can take the South American position: Eastern Erurope is no different than Central Africa and we shouldn't waste our time with a bunch of degenerate kleptocratic barbarians. And reject any attempts to pull us into this insane conflict and recognize that Zelesnky is a puppet of the global order and is therefor a traitor to his nation and not good for the Ukraine.
That's not true! According to prosecutors in Miami and Haiti they rape hundreds of corpses and trade children to pedos for profit!
Oh wait you meant doing something good that doesn't involve necrophilia and child trafficking...never mind you're right.
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Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
I disagree with your opinion on Putin, but agree wholeheartedly with everything else.
I get why he has the support he has, because in the 90's Russia didn't need a goofy fat ass that got drunk and did meth with Bill Clinton and laughed at reporters and danced at concerts. Not when the rape in the streets was surpassing Congolese stats and the crime and the homicide rates made Detroit and Chiraq blush.
Russia needed a lunatic and a thug to straighten out society and purge the excess filth... Sometimes societies do need strongmen to fix them.
Those Strongmen should then be heaped with accolades, given fortunes and encouraged to quietly retire to their estates until the next gigantic clusterfuck. What they shouldn't do, is retain power for an entire generation. And I know what the coming counter argument usually is "That Putin is there because the guys who would replace him are even worse" yes, I know...lolEasternEurope.
But I think that's more proof we should treat the entire region the way we treated the Congo in the 70's.
So? Pretty sure it was a bit earlier (why would Russian Empire ban a nonexistent language of an nonexistent national minority?), but its a pointless argument and the specific timing doesn't matter. 300 years ago no nation in the modern sense existed. The reorganization of people's of Europe from loose cultural groups organized by allegiance to kings and/or particular brand of religion said king follows into distinct nations has started around late 17th century, and massively accelerated around 19th century, in a set of major historical events known as the spring of nations.
Nationalism - European Identity, Unity, Patriotism
Nationalism - European Identity, Unity, Patriotism: The first full manifestation of modern nationalism occurred in 17th-century England, in the Puritan revolution. England had become the leading nation in scientific spirit, in commercial enterprise, and in political thought and activity. Swelled...
www.britannica.com
Revolutions of 1848 - Wikipedia
At the latest, any serious national identity is forged in the fires of war, and now they are finally getting that done for good.
A short history of Ukrainian nationalism — and its tumultuous relationship with Russia
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Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
Sure, and while "Ukraine" might have come late to the party, then Novorossia and Donbass and Crimea totally forgot and had to make their own in its house.So? Pretty sure it was a bit earlier (why would Russian Empire ban a nonexistent language of an nonexistent national minority?), but its a pointless argument and the specific timing doesn't matter. 300 years ago no nation in the modern sense existed. The reorganization of people's of Europe from loose cultural groups organized by allegiance to kings and/or particular brand of religion said king follows into distinct nations has started around late 17th century, and massively accelerated around 19th century, in a set of major historical events known as the spring of nations.
Nationalism - European Identity, Unity, Patriotism
Nationalism - European Identity, Unity, Patriotism: The first full manifestation of modern nationalism occurred in 17th-century England, in the Puritan revolution. England had become the leading nation in scientific spirit, in commercial enterprise, and in political thought and activity. Swelled...Ukrainians were a bit late to the party and didn't have much luck establishing a nation-state then, but not for lack op that's no reason to forever deny them the claim to nationhood.Revolutions of 1848 - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
At the latest, any serious national identity is forged in the fires of war, and now they are finally getting that done for good.
A short history of Ukrainian nationalism — and its tumultuous relationship with Russia
Totally forgetting the fact that Ukraine as a geographical location in the confines of the Russian Empire and the majority of people who self-identify as such don't really overlap.
So? Pretty sure it was a bit earlier (why would Russian Empire ban a nonexistent language of an nonexistent national minority?), but its a pointless argument and the specific timing doesn't matter. 300 years ago no nation in the modern sense existed. The reorganization of people's of Europe from loose cultural groups organized by allegiance to kings and/or particular brand of religion said king follows into distinct nations has started around late 17th century, and massively accelerated around 19th century, in a set of major historical events known as the spring of nations.
Nationalism - European Identity, Unity, Patriotism
Nationalism - European Identity, Unity, Patriotism: The first full manifestation of modern nationalism occurred in 17th-century England, in the Puritan revolution. England had become the leading nation in scientific spirit, in commercial enterprise, and in political thought and activity. Swelled...Ukrainians were a bit late to the party and didn't have much luck establishing a nation-state then, but not for lack op that's no reason to forever deny them the claim to nationhood.Revolutions of 1848 - Wikipedia
At the latest, any serious national identity is forged in the fires of war, and now they are finally getting that done for good.
A short history of Ukrainian nationalism — and its tumultuous relationship with Russia
The Ukrainians are going to have to get very very ruthless and very brutal to have their country.
The russian tactic looks like its going to be to destroy as much civilian infostructor as possible, and wreak the planting season, and create a massive refugee crisis and then kill any one who doesn't go refugee. Same tactics used in Alepo, and other areas. It makes them hated of course but if you win then it doesn't really matter.
The west for its part knows that the Russian plan for security involves invading a bunch of other countries including the baltic nations which are nato allies so the plan is pretty much to fight to the very last ukranian's and bleed the russians white which is incredibly doable because their demographics are terrible.
The west wants to make this Russias very last war, Russia needs to win this fast because they have to win a bunch of other conflicts in order to make their country in their minds secure.
Sure, and while "Ukraine" might have come late to the party, then Novorossia and Donbass and Crimea totally forgot and had to make their own in its house.
Totally forgetting the fact that Ukraine as a geographical location in the confines of the Russian Empire and the majority of people who self-identify as such don't really overlap.
Seems pretty damn close to me.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
Me? Bullshit?Again with that bullshit.
You're the one saying one election result or language use choices (sweating in former English and Spanish colonies intensifies) reflect nationality more than self-reported nationality.
Agent23
Ни шагу назад!
Yeah, yeah, sure sure, I am certain that cultural ties, linguistic ties and economic ties, and the fact that Ukronazis want to Ukrainize the entire country and ban their language doesn't have any effect.
And I am sure that Ukrainian surveys are fully above board and legitimate.
If the Ukrainians had not let themselves into being goaded by the west into this confrontation, this wouldn't have happened.
If the Meidan coup instigated by the west and the ukronazis did not happen this wouldn't have happened.
If the idiots in Kiev had not tried to send his troops into Donbass to slaughter the population and adhered to the Minsk accords this wouldn't have happened.
We have gone over this over and over and over.
We have gone over the deaths in Odessa, the deaths in Donbass, all of it over and over and over.
You are just a parrot without any retention, or just a hypocrite that can't see simple truths because you have a hate boner for Russia and have some deranged fantasies about a new Polish empire.
Well, newsflash, genius, once the USA is done with you they will just discard Poland and Ukraine, like they did to Saddam, the Shah of Iraq, the South Vietnamese.
You are a blind fool.Just a parrot that can't learn a new thing to repeat ad nausium, and frankly I am sick and tired of listening to the same dumb gibberish you spew.
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Yeah, sure, even the Ukrainians who didn't learn Ukrainian but don't consider themselves Russian and don't want to be Russian serfs want to ban the only language they use
This is not a survey, this is a fucking census. Last one. From 2001. Not from the muh coup government, in 2001, under fucking Kuchma, lol.
Translation from Moscow serf: "If the Ukrainians were nice little serfs and continued to follow instructions from Moscow, Moscow would not have to invade them to restore its rule."
Lol. On the other hand, South Korea, Japan, Israel...
this is like most wars in human history, every one involved is some flavor of dick and honestly were no better.
That's ok, take out the holier then though bullshit and look at things rationally and you will do a lot less evil then if you go in thinking your the good guy.
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