Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Agent23]

Yeah, sure, even the Ukrainians who didn't learn Ukrainian but don't consider themselves Russian and don't want to be Russian serfs want to ban the only language they use

This is not a survey, this is a fucking census. Last one. From 2001. Not from the muh coup government, in 2001, under fucking Kuchma, lol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_Census_%282001%29

Translation from Moscow serf: "If the Ukrainians were nice little serfs and continued to follow instructions from Moscow, Moscow would not have to invade them to restore its rule."


Lol. On the other hand, South Korea, Japan, Israel...

Is there an actual reason why I should actually talk to you, parrot?

 

[Marduk]

Is there an actual reason why I should actually talk to you, parrot?

You could learn something about the matter in question for once, donkey.

 

[Agent23]

this is like most wars in human history, every one involved is some flavor of dick and honestly were no better.

That's ok, take out the holier then though bullshit and look at things rationally and you will do a lot less evil then if you go in thinking your the good guy.

Oh, really, who is the good guy here, the coked-up actor puppeteered by neo-nazis and oligarchs?
What about his backing, that has fucked up Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq and a bunch of other places.
The guys that helped said neo-nazis take power by instigating a coup?
You got even bigger shitholes than you and when you went in, and murdered a ton of people while there.

 

[Agent23]

You could learn something about the matter in question for once, donkey.

My sentiment towards you is the same, ass.

 

[Marduk]

My sentiment towards you is the same, ass.

And guess you ran out of arguments and went back to kindergarten again.

If the Meidan coup instigated by the west and the ukronazis did not happen this wouldn't have happened.

That's a pitch for a new anime right there.

 

[Agent23]

And guess you ran out of arguments and went back to kindergarten again.

That's a pitch for a new anime right there.

We have stated our arguments, before, over and over and over, we have rejected them.
As Scott Adams says we are watching one TV but two different movies.
You are not an objective participant in this discussion because you think Poland can do some empire building in Eastern Europe and because you hate Russia.
I like the Russians for cultural and historical reasons and see the west as unreliable and hypocritical, and run by retards and political correctness, you are the opposite.
Dialogue between the two of us is probably impossible.

That's a pitch for a new anime right there.

Actually it was the very successful pitch for a very successful documentary movie called "Ukraine on Fire", something your side is trying to blackhole and deny.

 

[Marduk]

We have stated our arguments, before, over and over and over, we have rejected them.
As Scott Adams says we are watching one TV but two different movies.
You are not an objective participant in this discussion because you think Poland can do some empire building in Eastern Europe and because you hate Russia.

Neither are you obviously. The question is, to sabotage Russia's empire rebuilding, or not, and the answer is obvious. Yes, i'm sure most of Polish people are not ashamed to say that they want any form of Russian empire rebuilding to fail catastrophically.
Whether that helps any prospect of Polish empire building doesn't matter, probably not, different nationalisms and empires don't mix. But Russia failing at it too is the next best thing.
The alternative is seeing Russia partially rebuild its empire with Ukraine and Belarus, and for Poland there is nothing good coming from that.

I like the Russians for cultural and historical reasons and see the west as unreliable and hypocritical, and run by retards and political correctness, you are the opposite.
Dialogue between the two of us is probably impossible.

We are part of the west. We have our own culture and history. Just because anglosphere has an ideological disease of sorts, and its trying to spread memetically, doesn't make surrender to Russian influences with their own kinds of diseases a good idea.
In either cases, we have to make our own stand.

Actually it was the very successful pitch for a very successful documentary movie called "Ukraine on Fire", something your side is trying to blackhole and deny.

Russian propaganda, nah, doesn't sound as fun as ukronazi meidos doing coups

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

That's a pitch for a new anime right there.

Except that happened. While we shouldn't be defending Putin (him conquering the Ukraine just means the old soviet adage "new boss, same as old boss" would go into effect) let's not pretend our outright rogue department of state and disloyal Intel community didn't do everything in its power to undermine what Ukrainian people wanted. Right down to manufacturing a false rebellion to install a globalist loyal vichy.

The very people advocating us to start an atomic holocaust are the same people who overthrew a President chosen by the people and installed a demented Irish gangster in his place.

That should make everyone here extremely skeptical.

 

[Marduk]

Except that happened. While we shouldn't be defending Putin (him conquering the Ukraine just means the old soviet adage "new boss, same as old boss" would go into effect) let's not pretend our outright rogue department of state and disloyal Intel community didn't do everything in its power to undermine what Ukrainian people wanted. Right down to manufacturing a false rebellion to install a globalist loyal vichy.

That narrative has a tiny little hole in it. It runs completely on the assumption that a decisive majority of Ukrainian people genuinely wanted to keep their Moscow following governments forever, despite their stewardship being quite shitty over previous 2 decades or so. And i mean shittier than even most of other Russian friendly governments in the region, look at GDP per capita comparisons to, say, Belarus, or even meme grade poor as fuck Romania that joined the EU around the same time as Orange Revolution happened in Ukraine.
So the theory that a lot of them were fed up with Moscow puppets has plenty enough plausibility to say that the sentiment was there, and western countries merely helped.
There is no reason to assume that a pro-western Ukraine would be any more of a "globalist loyal Vichy" than the V4 countries or Turkey.

 

[ATP]

You know Babylon 5, right?
Made by an American Pole.
Had some incredibly quotable lines.
My favorite one was "The enemy is powerful, show us you have equal power."

1.supporting equal power have sense only if they want and could help you.
KGBstan which cosplay as Russia belive that ukrainian do not exist,and poles should not exist,so we must fight them no matter the odds.
Moreover,they are unable to defeat Ukraine,which mean,that even if they want,they could not help us.

So? Pretty sure it was a bit earlier (why would Russian Empire ban a nonexistent language of an nonexistent national minority?), but its a pointless argument and the specific timing doesn't matter. 300 years ago no nation in the modern sense existed. The reorganization of people's of Europe from loose cultural groups organized by allegiance to kings and/or particular brand of religion said king follows into distinct nations has started around late 17th century, and massively accelerated around 19th century, in a set of major historical events known as the spring of nations.

Nationalism - European Identity, Unity, Patriotism

Nationalism - European Identity, Unity, Patriotism: The first full manifestation of modern nationalism occurred in 17th-century England, in the Puritan revolution. England had become the leading nation in scientific spirit, in commercial enterprise, and in political thought and activity. Swelled...

www.britannica.com

Revolutions of 1848 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ukrainians were a bit late to the party and didn't have much luck establishing a nation-state then, but not for lack op that's no reason to forever deny them the claim to nationhood.
At the latest, any serious national identity is forged in the fires of war, and now they are finally getting that done for good.
A short history of Ukrainian nationalism — and its tumultuous relationship with Russia

Right,with two exception - Poland and Hungary.In both cases we have gentry nations existing from 12th century - but it was possible thanks to relatively big number of gentry there ,and that they have their rights.
Townspeople followed from 16th century,but not peasant.
Hungarian or polish peasant do not considered himself as hungarian or pole till at least 1850.

 

[Terthna]

40 House Democrats Signed A 2019 Letter Asking The State Department . . .

. . . To Designate Ukraine's Neo-Nazi Azov Battalion As A Terrorist Organization

freeeaglenetwork.substack.com

Sorry, i'm not one of those keks who pick sympathies according to how establishment opinions change.

Though you are someone who apparently sees no issue invoking the guilt by association fallacy to try and discredit people you disagree with; which makes me think that your emotional investment in this conflict has rendered you utterly incapable of arguing in good faith about anything involving it. In my case at least, my opinion on Ukraine has been on record going back years; so to claim that this is a recent development, let alone one that's influenced by the establishment (the overwhelming majority of which shares your opinion on the conflict, not mine), is such an obvious misrepresentation that I'm quite frankly flabbergasted that you're still harping on about it.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

That narrative has a tiny little hole in it. It runs completely on the assumption that a decisive majority of Ukrainian people genuinely wanted to keep their Moscow following governments forever, despite their stewardship being quite shitty over previous 2 decades or so. And i mean shittier than even most of other Russian friendly governments in the region, look at GDP per capita comparisons to, say, Belarus, or even meme grade poor as fuck Romania that joined the EU around the same time as Orange Revolution happened in Ukraine.
So the theory that a lot of them were fed up with Moscow puppets has plenty enough plausibility to say that the sentiment was there, and western countries merely helped.
There is no reason to assume that a pro-western Ukraine would be any more of a "globalist loyal Vichy" than the V4 countries or Turkey.

Being fed up with them is one thing, them choosing someone even more corrupt. Abusive and partisan and then Continuing to endorse a government that's as bad or worse?

Yeah that stinks of bioluminescent shenanigans. Especially when your other Eastern Euro rebellions are a lot more bloody and tend to culminate in Milosevec types coming into power. As opposed to whatever this creature is.

Edit- Marduk, come on. There's a huge difference between Erdogan and Zelensky. Sure both are corrupt embezzlers who've murdered their opposition but that's where the similarity ends.

 

[Marduk]

Though you are someone who apparently sees no issue invoking the guilt by association fallacy to try and discredit people you disagree with; which makes me think that your emotional investment in this conflict has rendered you utterly incapable of arguing in good faith about anything involving it. In my case at least, my opinion on Ukraine has been on record going back years; so to claim that this is a recent development, let alone one that's influenced by the establishment (the overwhelming majority of which shares your opinion on the conflict, not mine), is such an obvious misrepresentation that I'm quite frankly flabbergasted that you're still harping on about it.

Not just the association, but also the very content of the argument used.
To add insult to injury, the same people regularly using arguments of the same content against western right wing groups of that sorts.
And you think my opinion about Ukraine isn't going back years?
Or my opinion about Russia?

Being fed up with them is one thing, them choosing someone even more corrupt. Abusive and partisan and then Continuing to endorse a government that's as bad or worse?

Yeah that stinks of bioluminescent shenanigans.

Edit- Marduk, come on. There's a huge difference between Erdogan and Zelensky. Sure both are corrupt embezzlers who've murdered their opposition but that's where the similarity ends.

Well, is he more corrupt? Is that even possible, considering how corrupt the norm was? From all i know, the current team is only about half as corrupt as the usual for them, which must seem quite corrupt for the westerners, and a big upgrade to Ukrainians.
Let's be honest, there was never a possibility for Ukraine to jump from its status quo straight to a perfect, non corrupt government.

 

[Bacle]

@Marduk I think @Terthna is right that you have a hard time looking at this situation objectively do to historical issues with Russia, and that @The Immortal Watch Dog has a good point about the fact the same people who engineered the Maidan coup are the same one's who effectively coup'd Trump.

We can condemn Putin for his actions in Ukraine, condemn the fact actual Neo-Nazi's are in the Ukrainian ranks and command (look of the links between Zelenski's financers and the backers of Azov; there's some overlap that the Western media doesn't admit exists), condemn the role the US/State Dept played in the Maidan coup, and condemn the shady connections between Burisma and the Biden Admin.

Also, @Marduk, you seem to have forgotten when the Maidan coup happened, the vote before it was on the coup'd pres's favor, so it's not like the Maidan had complete organic support inside Ukraine either.

None of that justified what Putin did in Crimea or the Donbass, but the West is not innocent in this situation.

I feel like too many people are letting war-hype/war-hysteria override thier critical thinking skills and historical knowledge, because anyone not hating on Russia or Putin hard enough, or even simply pointing out the west's dirty laundry with regards to Ukraine, gets dogpiled. Dogpile the actual Russian shills, but do not bite the heads off people for not buying into the war-hype/war-hysteria as deeply as you'd like them too.

 

[Marduk]

@Marduk I think @Terthna is right that you have a hard time looking at this situation objectively do to historical issues with Russia, and that @The Immortal Watch Dog has a good point about the fact the same people who engineered the Maidan coup are the same one's who effectively coup'd Trump.

If there was a coup engineered in North Korea, it would be likely by these same people.
But would that make the coup unjustified, unsupported by the population, and the government it was against totally legitimate, honest and deserving of recognition?

We can condemn Putin for his actions in Ukraine, condemn the fact actual Neo-Nazi's are in the Ukrainian ranks and command (look of the links between Zelenski's financers and the backers of Azov; there's some overlap that the Western media doesn't admit exists), condemn the role the US/State Dept played in the Maidan coup, and condemn the shady connections between Burisma and the Biden Admin.

And here i see you are trying to play the cool headed and competent guy who has all the facts...
Even though you are obviously lost on some points, allow me to explain.
Burisma you say...
But who owns Burisma?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burisma#Ownership

Burisma Holdings is owned by Brociti Investments Limited, a Cyprus-based company owned by Ukrainian former politician and businessman Mykola Zlochevsky. Zlochevsky was minister of natural resources under Viktor Yanukovych, then president of Ukraine.[34] Brociti Investments acquired Burisma Holdings in 2011.[35] Before that acquisition, Mykola Zlochevsky and Mykola Lisin each owned a 50% interest in Burisma Holdings.[12][35][36] Lisin, a Ukrainian politician, died in a traffic accident in 2011.[36]

Cyprus based company, an oligarch under Yanukovuch, but wait, there is more...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Zlochevsky#Investigations_into_Burisma_and_Zlochevsky

Are you trying to convince me that a former pro-Russian party politician who fled Ukraine right after Maidan, dodging lots of investigations, returned only after 4 years, and even then only for a short time, is a massive supporter or ally of a supposedly US controlled Maidan government?
Come on, if you were an oligarch on the winning side of a coup, would you proceed to leave the country avoiding a mass of criminal investigations that weren't happening before and buy a Cypriot citizenship?

Also, @Marduk, you seem to have forgotten when the Maidan coup happened, the vote before it was on the coup'd pres's favor, so it's not like the Maidan had complete organic support inside Ukraine either.

>vote
>Russia loving government in eastern Europe
Yeah, sure, just like Putin and Lukashenko. They always have support, whether the voters like it or not.

 

[Terthna]

Not just the association, but also the very content of the argument used.
To add insult to injury, the same people regularly using arguments of the same content against western right wing groups of that sorts.

The facts are the facts; and though you keep pointing to that 2019 letter as if it proves a point, you should note that the establishment has made every effort since Russia invaded to try and pretend that there are no neo-Nazis in Ukraine.

And you think my opinion about Ukraine isn't going back years?
Or my opinion about Russia?

You're the one making those accusations, not me.

 

[Marduk]

The facts are the facts; and though you keep pointing to that 2019 letter as if it proves a point, you should note that the establishment has made every effort since Russia invaded to try and pretend that there are no neo-Nazis in Ukraine.

That makes them, the antifa wannabes who just few years ago cheered for the infamous reset with Russia and now are shocked by the invasion hypocrites (and fools), not me. I don't give a damn how "right wing extremist" the militias fighting Russian expansionism are, nor how many hate symbols they wear. I only care how many Russian tanks will they destroy. No changes in my stance on that with the invasion.

You're the one making those accusations, not me.

Well, if you want to throw a "holier than the pope" argument at the DNC antifa wannabes that they don't care about muh nazis enough...

 

[Terthna]

That makes them, the antifa wannabes who just few years ago cheered for the infamous reset with Russia and now are shocked by the invasion hypocrites, not me. I don't give a damn how "right wing extremist" the militias fighting Russian expansionism are, nor how many hate symbols they wear. I only care how many Russian tanks will they destroy. No changes in my stance on that with the invasion.

So then why did you pretend to care about people "using the same arguments" as the establishment?

 

[Bacle]

If there was a coup engineered in North Korea, it would be likely by these same people.
But would that make the coup unjustified, unsupported by the population, and the government it was against totally legitimate, honest and deserving of recognition?

And here i see you are trying to play the cool headed and competent guy who has all the facts...
Even though you are obviously lost on some points, allow me to explain.
Burisma you say...
But who owns Burisma?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burisma#Ownership

Cyprus based company, an oligarch under Yanukovuch, but wait, there is more...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mykola_Zlochevsky#Investigations_into_Burisma_and_Zlochevsky

Are you trying to convince me that a former pro-Russian party politician who fled Ukraine right after Maidan, dodging lots of investigations, returned only after 4 years, and even then only for a short time, is a massive supporter or ally of a supposedly US controlled Maidan government?
Come on, if you were an oligarch on the winning side of a coup, would you proceed to leave the country avoiding a mass of criminal investigations that weren't happening before and buy a Cypriot citizenship?

>vote
>Russia loving government in eastern Europe
Yeah, sure, just like Putin and Lukashenko. They always have support, whether the voters like it or not.

So you do not deny the US effectively did cause the Maidan coup, you just think it was justified. Fair enough.

As for Burisma, the issue isn't the ownership, it's the connections to Biden, Pelosi, and others that I was talking about as the issue. The buyout and move to Cypress is interesting, but doesn't change the conflict of interest between Burisma and the Biden Admin. Which I think you understood, but did not want to address, because it goes back to the fact Ukraine was and still is riddled with corruption.

Do not pretend that the shady shit between the Ukrainian gov and Biden Admin do not exist, or that Zelenski's backers do not have overlap with Azov's backers.

We can condemn Putin's actions without excusing the shady shit 'our side' has done in Ukraine.

 

[Agent23]

Neither are you obviously. The question is, to sabotage Russia's empire rebuilding, or not, and the answer is obvious. Yes, i'm sure most of Polish people are not ashamed to say that they want any form of Russian empire rebuilding to fail catastrophically.
Whether that helps any prospect of Polish empire building doesn't matter, probably not, different nationalisms and empires don't mix. But Russia failing at it too is the next best thing.

Yes, as well as the 'wannabe superpower shit'

If you Poles want to burn your own resources in this attempt to contain Russia I do not care, you are supposedly a democracy,
and your oligarchy/deep state is your own.
What I do not care about is being dragged indirectly into your little quixotic, paranoia-fueled anti-Russia crusades, and since we are both in the EU and NATO that means that we have one foot tied together like in those idiotic races the Americans enjoy.
Russia is much larger, both where size and resources are concerned, and where total population is concerned.
As it happens yours and the Ukrainians shenanigans is costing me money already.

The alternative is seeing Russia partially rebuild its empire with Ukraine and Belarus, and for Poland there is nothing good coming from that.

Russia does not have any interest in trying to take you over, you do not have the resources to be worth taking over and they have the most land and minerals on the planet, literally.
You despise them and there is very little cultural similarity between you two.
You are not controlling large swaths of Belarussian and Ukrainian territory, nor are you supporting anti-soviet forces.

We are part of the west. We have our own culture and history. Just because anglosphere has an ideological disease of sorts, and its trying to spread memetically, doesn't make surrender to Russian influences with their own kinds of diseases a good idea.
In either cases, we have to make our own stand.

Ideological disease, try gangrene devouring a whole limb.
You identify as whatever you want to identify, I do not see myself as a part of the West, once I wanted to be more western, but since then I have found the west lacking.
Furthermore, the west is very inconsistent and self-obsessed, they will dump you when they have the slightest incentive and you are shilling for the UK and USA like mad.
Furthermore, the bigger powers in the EU probably hate you for being a US/UK trojan horse and for messing up their relationships with the Russians.