Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Bacle]

Fair enough; but considering everything our country is guilty of, I don't think we have much room to criticize them. I'm sure they have their justifications for it; just as we had for all of our attacks on innocent civilians, including children.

We are not perfect and you know I've called out the shit the US has done, but do not start acting like we have no room to criticize what the Russian are doing. Whatever else, the US can admit our fuck ups; most of Russia's population doesn't even know what happened at Chernobyl or their countries part in it.

For one, from a purely tactical standpoint, having your troops be so undisciplined they act more like Mongol raiders than a professional military. I do not ever remember hearing US soldiers asking their wives for permission to rape the women of another nation or shooting civies in the back just so we could loot their store.

 

[History Learner]

I never saw those reports, I saw that they thought Shiogu had a heart attack and might have died. He obviously didn't die, but even Russian state media admitted he'd had heart problems.

Your favorite glowies over at NEXTA were talking about it in March:



Then here is Foreign Affairs, "Could the Siloviki Challenge Putin?" in early April.

Plenty of other articles I could cite, but it's most curious how you just so happened to miss all of these claims of the last few months.

But do you remember when Russian sources claimed they had destroyed all of Ukraine's Bayaktars, which somehow still ended up helping trash their positions on Snake Island and are still trashing Russia's to this day?

You remember when Putin said no invasion would happen?

Because Pepperridge Farm remembers.

Indeed I do, which is why I also remember no Bayraktar footage was coming out for weeks and why, just before the failed Ukrainian snake island op, they took a new delivery from Turkey. The third so far of the war, by the way. Strange how if the Russians aren't actually destroying the TBs why Kiev keeps having to order new batches from Turkey and why they have so little combat footage from them since March.

 

[Terthna]

We are not perfect and you know I've called out the shit the US has done, but do not start acting like we have no room to criticize what the Russian are doing. Whatever else, the US can admit our fuck ups; most of Russia's population doesn't even know what happened at Chernobyl or their countries part in it.

For one, from a purely tactical standpoint, having your troops be so undisciplined they act more like Mongol raiders than a professional military. I do not ever remember hearing US soldiers asking their wives for permission to rape the women of another nation or shooting civies in the back just so we could loot their store.

Well, true; we're not quite that bad. Maybe I'm just jaded and bitter; not nearly as many people cared when that and worse was happening in South Sudan, or Ethiopia. Not even me, if I'm being honest; and yet now that it's Russia doing it, everyone suddenly gives a shit? Not to mention the fact that the whole thing serves as an easy justification for our ruling elites to continue robbing the American people (54 billion in aid money, and counting) and silence dissent; I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the plight of the Ukrainians, when it's being used as a weapon against me.

 

[Bacle]

Well, true; we're not quite that bad. Maybe I'm just jaded and bitter; not nearly as many people cared when that and worse was happening in South Sudan, or Ethiopia. Not even me, if I'm being honest; and yet now that it's Russia doing it, everyone suddenly gives a shit? Not to mention the fact that the whole thing serves as an easy justification for our ruling elites to continue robbing the American people (54 billion in aid money, and counting) and silence dissent; I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the plight of the Ukrainians, when it's being used as a weapon against me.

They are monsters, but monsters with limited reach; Russia has has the second largest nuclear arsenal in the world. There are things that a tin pot dictator can get away withm but which cannot be tolerated from a nuclear power for the safety of the fucking biome.

You are jaded, and the fact you can admit you might be is a step in the right direction. I understand where you are coming from, particularly after 2020 and how the Dems are acting domestically; I am still cautioning against war hysteria, even if I think war time production spin up wouldn't be the worst idea these days.

Because the wild card now is China. If they make a play for Taiwan, we won't be able to stay out of the war. If China/Xi is deterred from pursuing that path by events in Ukraine and the international reaction to it, maybe we can avoid a world war inginting there.

The Maidan should not have happened the way it did, and we should have stayed hands off before that. That's something we agree on.

But nothing from the Maidan till the tank's rolled into Chernobyl justifies what is happening now, and even the rebels lost all moral high ground when they shot down the airliner and Putin helped cover it up.

Do not forget I was in the forum on SB when all that shit went down; I saw a lot of the same stuff you saw.

 

[Blasterbot]

Well, true; we're not quite that bad. Maybe I'm just jaded and bitter; not nearly as many people cared when that and worse was happening in South Sudan, or Ethiopia. Not even me, if I'm being honest; and yet now that it's Russia doing it, everyone suddenly gives a shit? Not to mention the fact that the whole thing serves as an easy justification for our ruling elites to continue robbing the American people (54 billion in aid money, and counting) and silence dissent; I have a hard time feeling sympathy for the plight of the Ukrainians, when it's being used as a weapon against me.

well now this affects the elites pocket books so of course we get a bunch of this blasted through a fire hose down our throats. gotta make sure we protect the clinton foundations biggest donners after all.

 

[Terthna]

They are monsters, but monsters with limited reach; Russia has has the second largest nuclear arsenal in the world. There are things that a tin pot dictator can get away withm but which cannot be tolerated from a nuclear power for the safety of the fucking biome.

If that's the case, I wish more people would couch their condemnations under that premise. Most just seem to prefer to pretend that what Russia is doing is without precedence.

You are jaded, and the fact you can admit you might be is a step in the right direction. I understand where you are coming from, particularly after 2020 and how the Dems are acting domestically; I am still cautioning against war hysteria, even if I think war time production spin up wouldn't be the worst idea these days.

Because the wild card now is China. If they make a play for Taiwan, we won't be able to stay out of the war. If China/Xi is deterred from pursuing that path by events in Ukraine and the international reaction to it, maybe we can avoid a world war inginting there.

Our ruling elites have been chomping at the bit for conflict with Russia for years, and bending over backwards running interference for China for even longer. So long as they remain in power, I can't see us doing anything to stop China if they do make a play for Taiwan.

The Maidan should not have happened the way it did, and we should have stayed hands off before that. That's something we agree on.

But nothing from the Maidan till the tank's rolled into Chernobyl justifies what is happening now, and even the rebels lost all moral high ground when they shot down the airliner and Putin helped cover it up.

Do not forget I was in the forum on SB when all that shit went down; I saw a lot of the same stuff you saw.

If we had acted differently though, before, during, and after the coup, I don't believe Russia would be invading Ukraine right now. We provoked them, intentionally and for years, so what they do in response to that provocation is at least partially our fault.

 

[LordsFire]

If we had acted differently though, before, during, and after the coup, I don't believe Russia would be invading Ukraine right now. We provoked them, intentionally and for years, so what they do in response to that provocation is at least partially our fault.

This provocation being?

 

[Bacle]

If that's the case, I wish more people would couch their condemnations under that premise. Most just seem to prefer to pretend that what Russia is doing is without precedence.

I do not know anyone who thinks it's 'without precedent', more that it's 'wow, they really are that monsterous and stupid'.

However, you are correct that couching condemnations like that would help get the point across better than most arguments about comparing what Russia does to tin pot dictators.

Our ruling elites have been chomping at the bit for conflict with Russia for years, and bending over backwards running interference for China for even longer. So long as they remain in power, I can't see us doing anything to stop China if they do make a play for Taiwan.

I understand that feeling, but the simple fact is Japan has already made a separate defense pact with Taiwan and will move to defend them separate from us, and we still have our defense pact with Japan, even if we ignore our agreements with Taiwan.

So if China tries something, Japan will move to defend Taiwan, that will cause the CCP to hit Japan, and then we cannot avoid getting involved no matter how we feel about Taiwan.

Pretty sure ignoring our defense pact with Japan in a circumstance like that would likely see whomever is in power removed from office ASAP, or possibly the first military coup in US history.

If we had acted differently though, before, during, and after the coup, I don't believe Russia would be invading Ukraine right now. We provoked them, intentionally and for years, so what they do in response to that provocation is at least partially our fault.

Russia cares more about the oil and gas deposits in the Donbass and off Crimea undercutting sales to Europe, and creating a defensive peremiter at the Carpathians, than they do about 'ethnic Russian speakers or what happened at the Maidan.its just those reasons do not get any traction with sympathetic western audiences, and would reveal the real reasons for the invasion.

 

[Terthna]

I understand that feeling, but the simple fact is Japan has already made a separate defense pact with Taiwan and will move to defend them separate from us, and we still have our defense pact with Japan, even if we ignore our agreements with Taiwan.

So if China tries something, Japan will move to defend Taiwan, that will cause the CCP to hit Japan, and then we cannot avoid getting involved no matter how we feel about Taiwan.

Pretty sure ignoring our defense pact with Japan in a circumstance like that would likely see whomever is in power removed from office ASAP, or possibly the first military coup in US history.

I wish I could share your optimism. Personally, after the Afghanistan withdraw, my faith in our military pretty much evaporated; compared to leaving American citizens behind in a war zone, refusing to abide by a defense pact seems petty by comparison.

That said, I'm not sure our refusal to get involved would matter. If Japan can unite everyone else in the region against China, which wouldn't exactly be difficult considering how they've antagonized pretty much all of them, I think they could win without our help in a purely conventional conflict.

Russia cares more about the oil and gas deposits in the Donbass and off Crimea undercutting sales to Europe, and creating a defensive peremiter at the Carpathians, than they do about 'ethnic Russian speakers or what happened at the Maidan.its just those reasons do not get any traction with sympathetic western audiences, and would reveal the real reasons for the invasion.

Probably; otherwise, they should have invade immediately after the coup.

 

[Zachowon]

I wish I could share your optimism. Personally, after the Afghanistan withdraw, my faith in our military pretty much evaporated; compared to leaving American citizens behind in a war zone, refusing to abide by a defense pact seems petty by comparison.

That said, I'm not sure our refusal to get involved would matter. If Japan can unite everyone else in the region against China, which wouldn't exactly be difficult considering how they've antagonized pretty much all of them, I think they could win without our help in a purely conventional conflict.


Probably; otherwise, they should have invade immediately after the coup.

They did invade after the Coup.
The Donbass and Crimea situations

 

[ATP]

Polish journalist,Rafał Ziemkiewicz,made theory which explain Moscov behaviour:
1.They attacked in stupid way,becouse they belived,that ukrainians woud not fight.
2.They could not stop war and widraw,becouse somebody from other factions would kil them
3.They fear mobilization,becouse sodiers then coud made revolution and kill them
4.So,they choose small war which stil led to inflation in West and hunger in Africa,which mean lots of refugees.They belive,that West would widraw from Ukraine after few months,maybe year.

Ziemkiewicz belive,that not matter what happen,Moscov days as local superpower ended.Especially that refugees would hurt Moscov allies in Europe,like germans,not USA.

Your thoughts?

 

[lloyd007]

Polish journalist,Rafał Ziemkiewicz,made theory which explain Moscov behaviour:
1.They attacked in stupid way,becouse they belived,that ukrainians woud not fight.
2.They could not stop war and widraw,becouse somebody from other factions would kil them
3.They fear mobilization,becouse sodiers then coud made revolution and kill them
4.So,they choose small war which stil led to inflation in West and hunger in Africa,which mean lots of refugees.They belive,that West would widraw from Ukraine after few months,maybe year.

Ziemkiewicz belive,that not matter what happen,Moscov days as local superpower ended.Especially that refugees would hurt Moscov allies in Europe,like germans,not USA.

Your thoughts?

1. I do agree that the Kremlin was largely drinking its own Kool Aid when it came to their overall capabilities and Ukraine's willingness to fight while a more sober attack would've probably been solely from the south and east aimed at making Ukraine a landlocked country, restoring the Don's supply to Crimea, encircling and destroying Ukraine's first line army in the Donbass and maybe... maybe encircling and forcing Kharkiv to surrender. If they'd done that with maybe an actual distraction force from Belarus and Sumy to menace Kyiv and keep as many units pinned there as possible, that they probably could've forced Zelinsky to the negotiating table by now even if they'd somehow taken roughly similar losses... since they'd have inflicted far more losses and possibly turned Kharkiv into an artillery wrecked catastrophe like Mariupol.

2. For all the optimism of Ukraine and jeering at the RuAF's performance, they've still lost a hell of a lot of territory that they haven't been able to take back... and they're still losing such as being ground out from their Donbass frontlines in recent days and the final surrender of Azovstal. From that more limited perspective, Russia is doing not great but not terrible.

3. They don't need to call for a general mobilization when they can just raise more regiments from rural areas that get 100% of their news from Moscow and/or send conscripts who magically have contracts on file at in the Kremlin that they totally signed. Also if the reports are to be believed they've snatched 1.3 million Ukrainians and counting, so they're gaining population from this conflict.

4. At the end of this war, Russia still has its vast natural resources to sell to buyers who DNGAF like China, India and etc. and with all the signaling from France and Germany, they're gonna be back making deals with Russia as soon as politics allows.

=============

Yes, the days of thinking of Russia as just as powerful as the old USSR are over for a good long time thanks to their massively sub par performance, but even so, they've taken a hell of a lot of territory that Ukraine will almost certainly only ever get back through fighting for it... which they haven't succeeded at yet and so maybe won't succeed at.

 

[ATP]

Fair enough; but considering everything our country is guilty of, I don't think we have much room to criticize them. I'm sure they have their justifications for it; just as we had for all of our attacks on innocent civilians, including children.

I do not like USA,your country betrayed us after all,but you never invade and genocide 20% of population,like Moscov in Czeczenya.
And Putin was planning to do the same in Ukraine,and later in Poland.
That is why i must support Ukraine - when Moscov stop denazifing/genociding/ ukrainians,we would be next.

 

[Cherico]

I do not like USA,your country betrayed us after all,but you never invade and genocide 20% of population,like Moscov in Czeczenya.
And Putin was planning to do the same in Ukraine,and later in Poland.
That is why i must support Ukraine - when Moscov stop denazifing/genociding/ ukrainians,we would be next.

I did a pole once it was decided by a large margin that the single best neighbor your country had was the ocean.

 

[Blasterbot]

I did a pole once it was decided by a large margin that the single best neighbor your country had was the ocean.

TBF despite occasional hurricane and tsunami I would rate ocean as our best neighbor too. keeps europe and asia away for the most part.

 

[nemo1986]

You know I hate to say it but Nixon was right. I ended up in a wiki walk and found this old interview he gave shortly after the end of the Soviet Union and said a lot that is very right today.

 

[Bacle]

 

[Bacle]

 

[Arch Dornan]

Ex president gets pranked into revealing what they want on the inside.

 

[PsihoKekec]

There might be war going on, but coruptocrats still need the fresh supply of luxury cars