Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

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Zachowon said:
How did we get them in this shit?
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Ever heard of 2014 coup d'etat in Ukraine? It was organised and financed by the USA and since then State Department ran the country, ensuring the constant escalation with Russia, because sacrificing Ukrainians is a cheap way to bleed Russia. Zelensky actually ran on a platform opposed to this, but was brought to heel by the deep state. after he was elected. Thus USA was able amp up war hysteria during the December invasion scare and prevented both countries from deescalating, pushing them to war instead. At one point Zelensky even publicly pleaded with USA to stop pushing Ukraine into war it did not want, but was quickly put into his place and went on with the program. Ukraine was to become a new Afghanistan and he can either lead his country into fire or become the first martyr.

Got hand it to people in State Department, they managed to get Russia to bleed itself in an unnecessary war, they made it the most reviled nation among Western world people and they fucked over EU big time, making it even more subservient to USA, all for a fraction of cost of invasion and occupation of Iraq. OK, USA is hurting economically more than predicted and Russian economy is still far from collapse, but no said it would be easy.

Oh and many countries are seeking an alternative to petrodollar now, which will have a really interesting consequences for world economy.
 
Butch R. Mann said:
Ever heard of 2014 coup d'etat in Ukraine? It was organised and financed by the USA and since then State Department ran the country, ensuring the constant escalation with Russia, because sacrificing Ukrainians is a cheap way to bleed Russia. Zelensky actually ran on a platform opposed to this, but was brought to heel by the deep state. after he was elected. Thus USA was able amp up war hysteria during the December invasion scare and prevented both countries from deescalating, pushing them to war instead. At one point Zelensky even publicly pleaded with USA to stop pushing Ukraine into war it did not want, but was quickly put into his place and went on with the program. Ukraine was to become a new Afghanistan and he can either lead his country into fire or become the first martyr.

Got hand it to people in State Department, they managed to get Russia to bleed itself in an unnecessary war, they made it the most reviled nation among Western world people and they fucked over EU big time, making it even more subservient to USA, all for a fraction of cost of invasion and occupation of Iraq. OK, USA is hurting economically more than predicted and Russian economy is still far from collapse, but no said it would be easy.

Oh and many countries are seeking an alternative to petrodollar now, which will have a really interesting consequences for world economy.
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Very well put.

I guess the cold logic of bleeding Russia in Ukraine by goading them into a fight over the oil reserves in the Donbass and near Crimea, which would have undercut Russia's petro-deals with Europe, is a decent long term strategy to fuck over Russia's ability to wage a war against NATO, while strengthening NATO and hurting the EU at the same time.

I mean State Dept, the Pentagon, and the White House played a very cagey game, and Putin has almost been played like a fiddle, right up till things went loud and the dice were rolled. Now no one is in control, and everyone is playing by a new/old set of rules.

Though the interesting thing I did not see coming was how Ukraine's situation has seriously burned the relationship between Japan and Russia that was already iffy due to the Kuril's, and now there are even Duma clowns claiming Hokkaido is rightful Russian clay. That's part of why Russia is having personnel issues, is because they have had to keep their Far east Units on alert and doing wargames as well.

I didn't want the war and didn't approve of what we did during Maidan, however no one forced Russia to make a push for Kiev, or to start moving armor and troops into/through Chernobyl.
 
Butch R. Mann said:
Oh and many countries are seeking an alternative to petrodollar now, which will have a really interesting consequences for world economy.
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it isn't like our entire economy and our ability to sink our government so far into debt is based on the petrodollar and our military might. I am sure there is only going to be good things that come of our wise and duly elected leader Joe Biden choosing to engage in such economic decisions. russia clearly hasn't been dealing with sanctions for more than a decade and has not in any way learned to soften such blows.
 
I'm still waiting for some kind of substantiation that the 2014 coup was caused, rather than just supported by western powers. It seems entirely credible to me that the Ukrainians would want to rid themselves of a Russian puppet government. Something other than naked assertions would be needed to convince me that the US State Department, which permitted Afghanistan and Iraq to have governments do things directly opposed to both liberal and conservative cultural values in the West, was somehow determined to control Ukraine's government for...

Reasons. And no, 'grinding the Russian military down' doesn't count as such a reason, given they did not have control of whether or not Russia would launch the invasion.

To be clear, I'm not ruling the possibility out. Western governments get up to some shady shit. I just haven't seen any argument for it beyond 'Russia says so,' which really doesn't hold any weight with me.
 
kgbstan army behave like drunken idiots - but,i always belived that KGB is full of intelligient psychos,not idiots.
So,why they behave like that?

Here,my conspiracy theories:

1. @ATP conspiracy theory No.1:
It is plot between USA deep state and Putin to get long,bloody war 0 swamp would have discration which let democrat win in 2022 elections,Putin could kill his army which otherwise could made putch and save Mother Russia.

2. @ATP conspiracy theory No.2:
It is Putin clever tactic to:
2.1 purge his army
2.2. destroy Ukraine
2.3. made everybody think that he is weak.
AND,WHEN STARS ARE RIGHT,HE WOULD ATTACK AND TAKE ENTIRE EUROPE !

So,any thoughts about it? maybe some better theory,why intelligient KGB psycho behave like idiot?
 
ATP said:
kgbstan army behave like drunken idiots - but,i always belived that KGB is full of intelligient psychos,not idiots.
So,why they behave like that?

Here,my conspiracy theories:

1. @ATP conspiracy theory No.1:
It is a plot between USA deep state and Putin to get a long, bloody war 0 swamp would have discretion which let democrat win in the 2022 elections, Putin could kill his army which otherwise could make putch and save Mother Russia.

2. @ATP conspiracy theory No.2:
It is Putin clever tactic to:
2.1 purge his army
2.2. destroy Ukraine
2.3. made everybody think that he is weak.
AND, WHEN THE STARS ARE RIGHT,HE WOULD ATTACK AND TAKE ENTIRE EUROPE !

So,any thoughts about it? maybe some better theory,why intelligient KGB psycho behave like idiot?
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What drugs is he doing and what intelligence has his own people been feeding him?
 
Typhonis said:
What drugs is he doing and what intelligence has his own people been feeding him?
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That very good theory,too.Most likely,true.But,i am 50 old,so i always thought that KGB MUST ne intelligient.Psycho,genocider - yes,but never idiot.
So,just in case,i wish for much stronger polish army amd at least 2 american brigades here.
 


belsat-eu.translate.goog

В России задержали военного, который записывал видео насилия над младенцем

Наши коллеги из «Вот Так» сообщают, что в сети появились видео с россиянином Алексеем Бычковым, который мог воевать в Украине. На одной из записей мужчина совершает действия сексуального характера с младенцем. В соцсетях пишут, что Бычков проходил службу в войсковой части № 64044. По информации «Вот Так», 9 апреля мужчину задержали в России.
belsat-eu.translate.goog belsat-eu.translate.goog

On the Russian side I heard someone's been harming children.

Crazy cunt. If you read what he's done he's a sick fuck.
 
King Arts said:
Hopefully the Russians have some decency and punish filth like that to the maximum extent.
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Russian would punish him,sure.Problem is - soviets finished them off,now we have postsoviets ruled by KGB mafia.They punish him only if he forget pay them.

Back to my rambling - Russia is ruled by KGB mafia,which are made from intelligent psycho.They could not be simple idiot rapist,THEY MUST HAVE SOME HIDDEN PLAN.
As @Chiron like to say - they do thing in their own way,and ultimately would win.
If they need to sacifise russian army and Ukraine for that - well,as long as they win,they would not care.
 
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Abhorsen said:
amp.economist.com

Finland is hurtling towards NATO membership

The NATO-Russia border would double at a stroke
amp.economist.com amp.economist.com

So this is clearly turning out to be a long term mistake for Russia. This was just what was needed to shove Finland into NATO, and Ukraine is likely to join right after the war. Putin was winning slowly by weakening Europe, but now this.
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If its a big mistake or a minor annoyance depends on which theory about what Russian leadership truly thinks about NATO one assumes to be correct.
Yes, if one adopts the pro-Russian camp's favorite theory that they are deathly afraid of "NATO encroachment", that would be a pretty big mistake, just a crowning moment of a long string of mistakes. Russia is pretty much sleepwalking into demonstrating the principle of "the more you squeeze, the more sand trickles through your fingers ". The tighter and more aggressively they hold onto the infamous "sphere of influence", the more countries want to GTFO out of this gulag for states and seek safety from its enforcement in NATO membership.

But if one adopts the opposite theory, that they consider this a minor annoyance in form of just not being able to invade those places with impunity in the future because NATO won't change anything except that (come on, its a defensive alliance, they couldn't even get all members to agree on invading third world Iraq, good luck getting them to agree on Russia) while the Ukraine invasion was about rebuilding the empire\sphere of influence\whatever?
Then losing a small chance of adding a small prize sometime in the future is a minor detail, especially when they are losing that chance for the sake of taking a shot at Ukraine, the biggest prize in consideration by far, seems like a more than acceptable trade-off. In that case their biggest mistake was not taking their shot in 2014.
 
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Butch R. Mann said:
Ever heard of 2014 coup d'etat in Ukraine? It was organised and financed by the USA and since then State Department ran the country, ensuring the constant escalation with Russia, because sacrificing Ukrainians is a cheap way to bleed Russia. Zelensky actually ran on a platform opposed to this, but was brought to heel by the deep state. after he was elected. Thus USA was able amp up war hysteria during the December invasion scare and prevented both countries from deescalating, pushing them to war instead. At one point Zelensky even publicly pleaded with USA to stop pushing Ukraine into war it did not want, but was quickly put into his place and went on with the program. Ukraine was to become a new Afghanistan and he can either lead his country into fire or become the first martyr.

Got hand it to people in State Department, they managed to get Russia to bleed itself in an unnecessary war, they made it the most reviled nation among Western world people and they fucked over EU big time, making it even more subservient to USA, all for a fraction of cost of invasion and occupation of Iraq. OK, USA is hurting economically more than predicted and Russian economy is still far from collapse, but no said it would be easy.

Oh and many countries are seeking an alternative to petrodollar now, which will have a really interesting consequences for world economy.
Click to expand...

AFAIK, the reason that no progress was made in the Donbass peace talks is because the Ukrainian people would not agree to any federalization terms that the Donbass would have demanded, such as veto power over Ukraine's future membership in economic unions and military alliances. So, it isn't the US that's responsible for this, but rather the Ukrainians themselves. And it makes sense once you think about it considering that, here in the US, Texas does not have veto power over US membership in any economic unions or military alliances.

Marduk said:
If its a big mistake or a minor annoyance depends on which theory about what Russian leadership truly thinks about NATO one assumes to be correct.
Yes, if one adopts the pro-Russian camp's favorite theory that they are deathly afraid of "NATO encroachment", that would be a pretty big mistake, just a crowning moment of a long string of mistakes. Russia is pretty much sleepwalking into demonstrating the principle of "the more you squeeze, the more sand trickles through your fingers ". The tighter and more aggressively they hold onto the infamous "sphere of influence", the more countries want to GTFO out of this gulag for states and seek safety from its enforcement in NATO membership.

But if one adopts the opposite theory, that they consider this a minor annoyance in form of just not being able to invade those places with impunity in the future because NATO won't change anything except that (come on, its a defensive alliance, they couldn't even get all members to agree on invading third world Iraq, good luck getting them to agree on Russia) while the Ukraine invasion was about rebuilding the empire\sphere of influence\whatever?
Then losing a small chance of adding a small prize sometime in the future is a minor detail, especially when they are losing that chance for the sake of taking a shot at Ukraine, the biggest prize in consideration by far, seems like a more than acceptable trade-off. In that case their biggest mistake was not taking their shot in 2014.
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Would attacking in 2014 have really been that much better for Russia, though? Russia was much less sanctions-proof back then, China was economically weaker back then, and couldn't logistics have halted any Russian advance while Ukrainians would be allowed to organize a levee en masse?
 
WolfBear said:
Would attacking in 2014 have really been that much better for Russia, though? Russia was much less sanctions-proof back then, China was economically weaker back then, and couldn't logistics have halted any Russian advance while Ukrainians would be allowed to organize a levee en masse?
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It would have been much easier, as evidenced by even the eastern region's fights being heavily militia based on Ukraine's side for the first few months. The element of surprise would have worked then, as Ukraine's military had terrible readiness, and the minimal amount of real fighting they would have provided would have in turn saved Russian logistics, while the speedy success would have limited the western efforts at organizing sanctions.
Long story short, Russia would be slightly less prepared, and its not well prepared for a serious fight now anyway, but Ukraine was a whole lot less prepared then, politically, materially and tactically.
 
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