Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[mrttao]

Quantity, location, quality, internal politics, global market...
To ignore all that and get away with it would require stable levels of competence from US government that are not anywhere near the recent experience.
Unless you expect isolationism to be magic and make US politicians so competent and patriotic just because you wish so.

> USA govt is too incompetent to drill oil locally
> But can totally play 5d chess to manipulate the entire world to its world hegemony

 

[Marduk]

> USA govt is too incompetent to drill oil locally

As current events show, yes, it is too incompetent. But lucky you, you can cover the shortfall with imports. That's the value of having more than one option and making sure the rest of the world isn't burning down when you do need it because your government at the time happens to care what some watermelons think.

> But can totally play 5d chess to manipulate the entire world to its world hegemony

Every half important government does. You don't have to be perfect at it, just better than the other guys.

 

[mrttao]

As current events show, yes, it is too incompetent.

1. The closure of the local oil drilling was not a matter of incompetence.
it was ideology driven malice.

they literally just ordered them shut down. All they have to do to resume drilling is step out of the way. there is no complexity here, it will get handled by the private sector who actually know what they are doing.

2. we are discussing what we think the govt should be doing. not what it is going to actually do.

What it actually did is... order the shutdown of local drilling of oil. Stood aside and did nothing while putin invaded. when ukraine started beating putin back, sent some money over to try to claim victory even though the ukrainian military did all the actual work.

You are proposing it should fight proxy wars. so it can siphon more raw resources and wealth.

I am proposing it should repeal the executive order to halt local drilling

Both of our positions are hypothetical on the "what should be done". so dismissing my proposal with "it can't do that" is disingenious.

It is also extremely likely that in 2024 we get a republican president who repeals the order to stop drilling locally. Which means that my own proposal for local drilling is likely to be prophetic

 

[Zachowon]

USA has local oilfields, it just refuses to use them
biden actually shut down local oil production.
also, usa should move to all nuclear

1. it wasn't america's problem
2. USA mass slaughtered its own citizens in WW2. via an illegal draft at that. And all that achieved is propping up stalin and mao.
3. isolationism my ass. first they mass slaughtered their own citizens by joining WW1. then they have been massively supporting UK and USSR for years prior to actually going to war

Just to clarify, you haven't actually participated in a war yet. but you want to?

I do. Yes

 

[Marduk]

1. The closure of the local oil drilling was not a matter of incompetence.
it was ideology driven malice.

they literally just ordered them shut down. All they have to do to resume drilling is step out of the way. there is no complexity here, it will get handled by the private sector who actually know what they are doing.

If only removing said malicious ideology from the halls of government was so simple...

2. we are discussing what we think the govt should be doing. not what it is going to actually do.

What it actually did is... order the shutdown of local drilling of oil. Stood aside and did nothing while putin invaded. when ukraine started beating putin back, sent some money over to try to claim victory even though the ukrainian military did all the actual work.

And you're lucky it's not practicing the isolationist stupidity in addition to this stupidity.
Stupidity compounds...

You are proposing it should fight proxy wars. so it can siphon more raw resources and wealth.

Objection, that's a teenage socialist level of understanding of what US superpower status is good for.

I am proposing it should repeal the executive order to halt local drilling

Both of our positions are hypothetical on the "what should be done". so dismissing my proposal with "it can't do that" is disingenious.

It is also extremely likely that in 2024 we get a republican president who repeals the order to stop drilling locally. Which means that my own proposal for local drilling is likely to be prophetic

That's just textbook political short-sightedness.
Of course it can be done, and chances are that some point it will be done, 2024, 2028, eventually. But even then, you have no guarantee that the watermelons won't get a friendly ear in the federal government again an election cycle or few later and do the same fucking thing again. The mere possibility that it will happen will hamper the investment climate in the domestic oil industry for decades to come.

 

[mrttao]

That's just textbook political short-sightedness.
Of course it can be done, and chances are that some point it will be done, 2024, 2028, eventually. But even then, you have no guarantee that the watermelons won't get a friendly ear in the federal government again an election cycle or few later and do the same fucking thing again. The mere possibility that it will happen will hamper the investment climate in the domestic oil industry for decades to come.

ok? and you also have no guarantee that they won't bungle foreign acquisition of oil

I mean, biden literally just bungled negotiations with saudi arabia over oil importing a couple of days ago.

 

[King Arts]

I mean, if we let Russia take Ukraone we should let China take Taiwan.
North Korea take South Korea.
Iran take Isreal.
Because that is basically what aby argument is going to end up as

You are asking me?
I'd say let China take Taiwan. But only after we get our own chip industry set up, we should not let vital things we need be produced ONLY in other nations, we need domestic production.
North Korea take South Korea? Umm South Korea would beat North Korea in a war, but even if they did not SK is an ally we have a literal treaty signed and ratified, so we must protect them and Japan just like NATO.
Iran take Israel. Uhh again I don't care Israel is not an ally like NATO they have not helped us and sent troops to Afghanistan or other places, we gain nothing by helping them but enemies in the middle east. The only thing we should do is mandate that the holy places in Israel are protected, so long as neither side destroyes stuff like the dome, temple wall, cave of the Patriarch, Church's, etc. It's not our problem.

The US tried isolationism back in the lead-up to WWII. How'd that work out? After all, Hitler taking over all those countries wasn't America's problem...

This is such a shit argument. The US tried isolationism until it's leaders decided to manipulate it into a war anyway.
And yes Hitler taking over those nations wasn't America's problem, by the way if we did nothing the Nazis and the Commies would have probably both collapsed after killing each other.

 

[Marduk]

ok? and you also have no guarantee that they won't bungle foreign acquisition of oil

I mean, biden literally just bungled negotiations with saudi arabia over oil importing a couple of days ago.

The more ways of getting it you have in reserve, the more attempts need to be bungled completely for a total fuckup.
If you rely on just one, well, it takes just that specific one to be bungled.

 

[Bacle]

The US tried isolationism back in the lead-up to WWII. How'd that work out? After all, Hitler taking over all those countries wasn't America's problem...

Why do I feel like the same people who parrot isolationist ideas th3se days would have done the same back them

All the Pro Putin/ Pro Xi talking points being made today are the same as the Pro Hitler talking points of the late 1930s. The exact same.

"But domestic problems!"

Look, I support Ukraine and all, but let's not start historical revisionism while defending it and aid going to it; US isolationism didn't cause WW2 nor were isolationist feelings unwarranted at the time.

Woodrow Wilson's fuckery at Versailles sowed the seeds that sprouted into WW2, between the way the German's were utterly fucked out of proportion to their 'guilt' in the war, while Wilson stiffed the Japanese for their help.

We had no bloody idea how bad or horrible the actions of the Germans and Japanese truly were till WW2 was already well underway, so the public didn't know the horrors that were happening in occupied areas the way we can see things in minutes or hours now, and the idea of the US having to 'uphold the world order' didn't exist back then.

We can support Ukraine without trying to rewrite the past.

 

[Zachowon]

You are asking me?
I'd say let China take Taiwan. But only after we get our own chip industry set up, we should not let vital things we need be produced ONLY in other nations, we need domestic production.
North Korea take South Korea? Umm South Korea would beat North Korea in a war, but even if they did not SK is an ally we have a literal treaty signed and ratified, so we must protect them and Japan just like NATO.
Iran take Israel. Uhh again I don't care Israel is not an ally like NATO they have not helped us and sent troops to Afghanistan or other places, we gain nothing by helping them but enemies in the middle east. The only thing we should do is mandate that the holy places in Israel are protected, so long as neither side destroyes stuff like the dome, temple wall, cave of the Patriarch, Church's, etc. It's not our problem.


This is such a shit argument. The US tried isolationism until it's leaders decided to manipulate it into a war anyway.
And yes Hitler taking over those nations wasn't America's problem, by the way if we did nothing the Nazis and the Commies would have probably both collapsed after killing each other.

China won't let us wait till them

Neither will any other.
Also we have alliance with South Korea and HAVE to defend Korea or we basically cut all trade with every ally

 

[Proxy 404]

as for the Suadi's, they've picked sides and have done so poorly, we might as well nationalize their refineries on our coast

 

[Captain X]

Look, I support Ukraine and all, but let's not start historical revisionism while defending it and aid going to it; US isolationism didn't cause WW2 nor were isolationist feelings unwarranted at the time.

We're not saying it did. We're saying an isolationist attitude would allow evil to flourish and that eventually, we would have had to deal with that problem, and would have had a harder time of it. At best, it would have been a cold war, but given how fanatical the Nazis were, who knows how long that would have kept up.

This is such a shit argument. The US tried isolationism until it's leaders decided to manipulate it into a war anyway.
And yes Hitler taking over those nations wasn't America's problem, by the way if we did nothing the Nazis and the Commies would have probably both collapsed after killing each other.

Yeah, wouldn't it be great if all our enemies just fought themselves to death, somehow just leaving us alone?

 

[mrttao]

We're not saying it did. We're saying an isolationist attitude would allow evil to flourish and that eventually, we would have had to deal with that problem, and would have had a harder time of it. At best, it would have been a cold war, but given how fanatical the Nazis were, who knows how long that would have kept up.

The USA helped communists destroy the nazies, then fought the communists.
It could just have just not interfered and the nazies and communists will have killed each other.

When your enemies fight, you are supposed to wait until someone wins and then kill the victor. Not jump into it and fight both

not to mention they were both hated by everyone else around them who would have stepped in when they were weakened from fighting each other

 

[Captain X]

The USA helped communists destroy the nazies, then fought the communists.
It could just have just not interfered and the nazies and communists will have killed each other.

Again, wouldn't it be nice if that was how the world worked? The truth is, one of them would have won, and we would have ended up having to deal with them.

When your enemies fight, you are supposed to wait until someone wins and then kill the victor. Not jump into it and fight both

According to your attitude, there would be no victor because they would conveniently destroy each other without the US lifting a finger. Or, if there were a victor, they would still not be our problem.

not to mention they were both hated by everyone else around them who would have stepped in when they were weakened from fighting each other

Dude, they conquered everyone else around them.

 

[Sailor.X]

Again, wouldn't it be nice if that was how the world worked? The truth is, one of them would have won, and we would have ended up having to deal with them.


According to your attitude, there would be no victor because they would conveniently destroy each other without the US lifting a finger. Or, if there were a victor, they would still not be our problem.


Dude, they conquered everyone else around them.

Not to mention us entering the War got us going down the road of actively working on an Atomic Bomb and fubaring the Nazis Bomb program. German Atomic Bomb Project | Atomic Heritage Foundation

Without us fighting the Germans on the Western Front. Hitler could well have gotten the bomb with us having jack all to show for it.

 

[Captain X]

And Hitler would not have had any problems using it.

 

[mrttao]

Again, wouldn't it be nice if that was how the world worked?

it literally is

The truth is, one of them would have won, and we would have ended up having to deal with them.

facepalm. "killed each other" does not mean "until the very last man". It means that the victor has much much smaller army because most of their army died fighting the other guy.

I even literally clarified that in the next sentence, which you literally quoted. but split off for some reason.

Also no, the USA wouldn't have had to deal with the victor. they would have been fighting india, china, and an alliance of remnant european powers.
if they didn't just outright balkanize

 

[Cherico]

"But domestic problems!"

Domestic problems are actually pretty important, if your leadership is shit then it doesn't matter how good your tech is, how well trained your troops are, or any other advantages. You will still lose the war.

And our leadership right now is pretty shit.

Its honestly for the best for the US to play a supporting role and not get directly involved because at the moment we would just fuck it up like Iraq and Afganistan.

 

[King Arts]

China won't let us wait till them

Neither will any other.
Also we have alliance with South Korea and HAVE to defend Korea or we basically cut all trade with every ally

Umm I said we have to protect South Korea they are an ally. Taiwan and Israel are not though. I don’t want us to have to crusade everywhere fighting evil. I’d rather us be a normal nation only fighting if either we are attacked or an official ally is attacked.

We're not saying it did. We're saying an isolationist attitude would allow evil to flourish and that eventually, we would have had to deal with that problem, and would have had a harder time of it. At best, it would have been a cold war, but given how fanatical the Nazis were, who knows how long that would have kept up.


Yeah, wouldn't it be great if all our enemies just fought themselves to death, somehow just leaving us alone?

Umm do I need to link a Wikipedia page when the Nazis invaded Russia? They were fighting each other after a war either side would have been completely exhausted and castrated. Here is the plan continue lend lese to Russia until they start winning and pushing the Germans back. Then stop and start giving lend lese to Germany. Keep the war going longer more dead Germans and Russians weaker Europe no downside to America.

 

[Marduk]

Umm I said we have to protect South Korea they are an ally. Taiwan and Israel are not though. I don’t want us to have to crusade everywhere fighting evil. I’d rather us be a normal nation only fighting if either we are attacked or an official ally is attacked.

USA is too influential to ignore and it would be stupid to think it isn't and expect to be ignored. It's not some ex-colonial state building up off the side like it was in early XX century.
Aspiring world powers would have to mess with it just to make sure it doesn't change its mind and gets in the way. Not that this capitulation out of the great power game in itself is more than a bunch of isolationist memes with no thought behind them.

Umm I said we have to protect South Korea they are an ally. Taiwan and Israel are not though. I don’t want us to have to crusade everywhere fighting evil. I’d rather us be a normal nation only fighting if either we are attacked or an official ally is attacked.

How are those "everywhere"? They aren't Sudan, Syria or Myanmar. Which would be far better cases of potential US interventions with no benefits in sight and some interventionists would absolutely want them anyway.
But yeah, just go ignore the probably most advanced electronics mass manufacturing assets on the planet with all the infrastructure and expertise needed for it, who needs those, just let commies get them or destroy them trying, smort isolationist geostrategic analysis for everyone to see.

The USA helped communists destroy the nazies, then fought the communists.
It could just have just not interfered and the nazies and communists will have killed each other.

When your enemies fight, you are supposed to wait until someone wins and then kill the victor. Not jump into it and fight both

not to mention they were both hated by everyone else around them who would have stepped in when they were weakened from fighting each other

LMAO, imagine invading Europe sized Third Reich or Soviet Union, even if weakened by war, without UK as a launchpad. It would have exactly the same issues and counterarguments as taking down the PRC (hey, it's the last communist power standing!) has now. More isolationists being very smort.

We're not saying it did. We're saying an isolationist attitude would allow evil to flourish and that eventually, we would have had to deal with that problem, and would have had a harder time of it. At best, it would have been a cold war, but given how fanatical the Nazis were, who knows how long that would have kept up.


Yeah, wouldn't it be great if all our enemies just fought themselves to death, somehow just leaving us alone?

I shudder to think what mileage commies, including refugees escaped from the whole Nazi occupied Europe, would get out of a cold war against Nazis.