Russia(gate/bot) Russia-Ukraine War Political Discussion

[Marduk]

Your sure it’s that and not, say, the fact that Zelensky wouldn’t be getting any more money from the West if there was peace?

He was already getting it before there was war. And the guy before him too. Ukraine is not Russia, they have elections where other parties can win. The western support for Ukraine has little to do with personalities of Ukraine's leadership, and more with curbing Russia's confidence in throwing elbows around in general (Georgia, UK, Czechia, gas politics in the east, espionage etc). Ukraine is just a great opportunity to do that.

Never mind that there’s a fair chance that Russia is going to keep what it annexed anyway.

The war isn't over as long as both sides have armies and will to fight. For that to happen Putin would have to somehow arrange a way to get rid of Ukraine's armies or will to fight, without getting NATO armies involved while at it. Not an easy thing to do.

 

[Bacle]

Kazakhstan snubs Russian demand to expel Ukrainian ambassador

Kazakh authorities on Wednesday rejected a demand from Russia that they expel Ukraine's ambassador over comments about killing Russians, chiding Moscow for what they called an inappropriate tone between "equal strategic partners".

www.reuters.com

Kazakhstan continues to snub Russian demands regarding Ukraine.

 

[Cherico]

Kazakhstan snubs Russian demand to expel Ukrainian ambassador

Kazakh authorities on Wednesday rejected a demand from Russia that they expel Ukraine's ambassador over comments about killing Russians, chiding Moscow for what they called an inappropriate tone between "equal strategic partners".

www.reuters.com

Kazakhstan continues to snub Russian demands regarding Ukraine.

That was some of the most polite shade I've heard this year

 

[Bacle]

Scramble , new immediate take-off for the #Eurofighter Italians engaged in Air Policing activities in Poland to intercept 4 Russian fighters that had affected Polish and Swedish airspace before being forced to re-enter Kaliningrad airspace

 

[DarthOne]

 

[Tiamat]

I understand the stakes. And I’m not agreeing with him. However, it’s hard for me to call him a “maniac”. Reminder of who invaded who again? And who’s been constantly threatening nuclear strikes since this fiasco started?

 

[Bacle]

I understand the stakes. And I’m not agreeing with him. However, it’s hard for me to call him a “maniac”. Reminder of who invaded who again? And who’s been constantly threatening nuclear strikes since this fiasco started?

More context; this was discussing the period before Feb 24th.


The people who want to villify Ukraine, in order for support to get cut/'avoid WW3'/believe Russia don't dig too deep into the larger context of many reports, and take Ru propaganda at face value.

 

[DarthOne]

I understand the stakes. And I’m not agreeing with him. However, it’s hard for me to call him a “maniac”. Reminder of who invaded who again? And who’s been constantly threatening nuclear strikes since this fiasco started?

You mean like how the US did back during the Cold War? Because Putin is literally taking a leg out of our old playbook. And given how stupid American and Western leadership is, I don’t want to gamble that he’s just bluffing or that someone on outside won’t blink first in a nuclear game of chicken.

 

[Tiamat]

You mean like how the US did back during the Cold War? Because Putin is literally taking a leg out of our old playbook. And given how stupid American and Western leadership is, I don’t want to gamble that he’s just bluffing or that someone on outside won’t blink first in a nuclear game of chicken.

So I’m not quite sure what your proposing. So if nuclear blackmail works and we give in to Putins demands, what’s keeping him or whoever succeeds him from trying more of this shit in a few years? Or not just him, Xi or the Kim’s, or someone else? Do you understand what sort of dangerous precedent this sets? I’m talking about the bigger picture, not bullshit US politics involving the Democrats and Joe Biden here, which seems tio be the excuse for some. “If it’s against Joe Biden, it must be good!”

 

[DarthOne]

More context; this was discussing the period before Feb 24th.


The people who want to villify Ukraine, in order for support to get cut/'avoid WW3'/believe Russia don't dig too deep into the large context of many reports, and take Ru propaganda at face value.

Look, Ukraine is not a member of NATO. It is not an American ally.

If the US wanted to say, sell them old weapons at a reduce cost or something, I’d be fine with that. But instead we gave them those weapons for free; weapons that NO ONE knows the exact were abouts of now. But we do have evidence that at least a not-insignificant amount of them ended up on the black market.

Then there’s the billions and billions of dollars of aid that we’ve sent. Aid that, ONCE AGAIN, has vanished into thin air. Never mind that even before this war started, corrupt Western politicians used Ukraine and Zelensky to create their own private piggybanks and money-laundry schemes.

And that’s ignoring how Americans and Europeans are suffering because of idiotic leadership of their countries decided to get involved with seemingly little or no thoughts to the consequences.

In the words of Smedley D. Butler “War is a Racket.” And this one more so then most.

 

[Bacle]

Look, Ukraine is not a member of NATO. It is not an American ally.

If the US wanted to say, sell them old weapons at a reduce cost or something, I’d be fine with that. But instead we gave them those weapons for free; weapons that NO ONE knows the exact were abouts of now. But we do have evidence that at least a not-insignificant amount of them ended up on the black market.

Then there’s the billions and billions of dollars of aid that we’ve sent. Aid that, ONCE AGAIN, has vanished into thin air. Never mind that even before this war started, corrupt Western politicians used Ukraine and Zelensky to create their own private piggybanks and money-laundry schemes.

And that’s ignoring how Americans and Europeans are suffering because of idiotic leadership of their countries decided to get involved with seemingly little or no thoughts to the consequences.

In the words of Smedley D. Butler “War is a Racket.” And this one more so then most.

I see you have completely ignored any developments in the War College thread, because had you spent much time in it you'd see how much Ru propaganda you have uncritically swallowed.

But then again I don't think you come by the actual invasion thread much if at all, yet keep pushing the anti-Ukraine political spin that idiots like Tucker Carlson spin to keep the Right as 'controlled opposition'.

It is possible to despise the Dems and Russia at the same time, and recognize that Biden's corruption and illegitimacy does not mean we should not support Ukraine.

 

[DarthOne]

So I’m not quite sure what your proposing. So if nuclear blackmail works and we give in to Putins demands, what’s keeping him or whoever succeeds him from trying more of this shit in a few years? Or not just him, Xi or the Kim’s, or someone else? Do you understand what sort of dangerous precedent this sets? I’m talking about the bigger picture, not bullshit US politics involving the Democrats and Joe Biden here, which seems tio be the excuse for some. “If it’s against Joe Biden, it must be good!”

It’s not because it’s against Biden. You missed the second half of my comment. I don’t want to risk it not being a buff or someone on the West being stupid and nukes flying. This isn’t about politics outside of the fact that Western political leadership is especially shit right now. If they were Right Wing and this dumb/inept I’d be saying the same thing. This is about not being in Fallout:Real Life Edition.

As for what we should do, how about not pushing Russia so hard into a damn corner and actually negotiating? Or some course of action beside WE MUST ESCALATE.

 

[DarthOne]

I see you have completely ignored any developments in the War College thread, because had you spent much time in it you'd see how much Ru propaganda you have uncritically swallowed.

But then again I don't think you come by the actual invasion thread much if at all, yet keep pushing the anti-Ukraine political spin that idiots like Tucker Carlson spin to keep the Right as 'controlled opposition'.

It is possible to despise the Dems and Russia at the same time, and recognize that Biden's corruption and illegitimacy does not mean we should not support Ukraine.

What on earth makes you think I like Russia?! Because I don’t blindly swallow a us -vs-them, black and white view?

I pity the Ukrainian people most of all; a despot attacking them, a corrupt leader controlling them and bumbling idiots making this whole situation worse.

 

[Bacle]

It’s not because it’s against Biden. You missed the second half of my comment. I don’t want to risk it not being a buff or someone on the West being stupid and nukes flying. This isn’t about politics outside of the fact that Western political leadership is especially shit right now. If they were Right Wing and this dumb/inept I’d be saying the same thing. This is about not being in Fallout:Real Life Edition.

As for what we should do, how about not pushing Russia so hard into a damn corner and actually negotiating? Or some course of action beside WE MUST ESCALATE.

Russia could just leave, and allow Ukraine to have it's 2014 borders back.

But that ould mean giving up the oil fields in the Donbass and in Crimea's economic zones, which is what they really invaded to control.

Russia isn't backed into any kinda of corner, outside of their own propaganda.

What on earth makes you think I like Russia?! Because I don’t blindly swallow a us -vs-them, black and white view?

I pity the Ukrainian people most of all; a despot attacking them, a corrupt leader controlling them and bumbling idiots making this whole situation worse.

You uncritically spout Ru propaganda all the fucking time, and ignore all the battlefield/domestic developments that would challange the narrative you've been pushing.

Much of the bullshit is quite easily debunked by doing deeper dives on sources or engaging in some thinking beyond 'Biden bad/Biden like Ukraine/thus Russia sympathetic/trustworthy'.

 

[DarthOne]

Russia could just leave, and allow Ukraine to have it's 2014 borders back.

But that ould mean giving up the oil fields in the Donbass and in Crimea's economic zones, which is what they really invaded to control.

Russia isn't backed into any kinda of corner, outside of their own propaganda.

Yes, because when a good chunk of the world is backing the your opposition with monetarily aid and war materials, one should never feel threatened!

 

[Bacle]

Yes, because when a good chunk of the world is backing the your opposition with monetarily aid and war materials, one should never feel threatened!

Russia is the one threatening people and actively trying to invade another sovereign nation, you dimwit.

All they need to do to not be 'threatened' is fucking leave Ukraine's sovereign soil.

 

[King Arts]

So I’m not quite sure what your proposing. So if nuclear blackmail works and we give in to Putins demands, what’s keeping him or whoever succeeds him from trying more of this shit in a few years? Or not just him, Xi or the Kim’s, or someone else? Do you understand what sort of dangerous precedent this sets? I’m talking about the bigger picture, not bullshit US politics involving the Democrats and Joe Biden here, which seems tio be the excuse for some. “If it’s against Joe Biden, it must be good!”

What is wrong with nuclear blackmail against non aligned powers? Like here is the thing Putin's actions seem to have shown the world that non proliferation does not work. That means the best option to prevent Russia from invading another nation that is not in NATO aka we aren't willing to die for like say Georgia is to just give those neutral nations their own nukes. That way Russia would not worry about Western nukes but instead Ukranian/Georgian WMD's. Obviously this opens the door for rival powers to arm places like Iran against us, but I don't really care about things half way around the world. Any road blocks to us getting involved in wars is good.

I see you have completely ignored any developments in the War College thread, because had you spent much time in it you'd see how much Ru propaganda you have uncritically swallowed.

But then again I don't think you come by the actual invasion thread much if at all, yet keep pushing the anti-Ukraine political spin that idiots like Tucker Carlson spin to keep the Right as 'controlled opposition'.

It is possible to despise the Dems and Russia at the same time, and recognize that Biden's corruption and illegitimacy does not mean we should not support Ukraine.

Here is the problem with your approach Bacle. I know you aren't Christian so you don't believe in an antichrist exactly. But surely you can accept the existance of evil elites? Well by having America and the West win against all other nations ex. Russia, China. That allows a gateway to open, in almost ensures that the anti christ will come and rule America, and thus doom the greatest power on earth to be the most contemptible pit imaginable instead of the shinning city on the hill. In that case Bacle you should hope that Christianity is true because then there would be a God who would eventually destroy that nation and military power. But I get you don't believe in an anti christ but do you really think it's a good idea from a secular stand point to let all of humanity fall under the sway of one hegemony? That is one failure point, and that means there is no alternative for dissidents to escape to. Again it sounds like the anti christ's one world government only there is no savior.

 

[Bacle]

Here is the problem with your approach Bacle. I know you aren't Christian so you don't believe in an antichrist exactly. But surely you can accept the existance of evil elites? Well by having America and the West win against all other nations ex. Russia, China. That allows a gateway to open, in almost ensures that the anti christ will come and rule America, and thus doom the greatest power on earth to be the most contemptible pit imaginable instead of the shinning city on the hill. In that case Bacle you should hope that Christianity is true because then there would be a God who would eventually destroy that nation and military power. But I get you don't believe in an anti christ but do you really think it's a good idea from a secular stand point to let all of humanity fall under the sway of one hegemony? That is one failure point, and that means there is no alternative for dissidents to escape to. Again it sounds like the anti christ's one world government only there is no savior.

So we have to abandon Ukraine, because the opposition of Russia and the CCP to the West is the only thing keeping the anti-Christ away...

That's a new one.

I mean yes, a large amount of the elites in the West are evil fucks, but the leadership of Russia and the CCP aren't any less evil.

 

[DarthOne]

Russia is the one threatening people and actively trying to invade another sovereign nation, you dimwit.

All they need to do to not be 'threatened' is fucking leave Ukraine's sovereign soil.

Oh look, we get to the name calling. Brilliant.

I never claimed that Russia didn’t launch this war. As for who started it, that involves a whole lot of digging through the agreements Russia and Ukraine had beforehand; agreements that neither side fully went along with.

And your demonstrating why this damn war is still going on. It’s ‘my way or the highway’ all the way.Stop trying to pull the same crap the government has since WW2. ‘If you don’t blindly support the latest military-industrial venture, then you are sympathizing with THE ENEMY. Or are too stupid to know What’s Good For The World.

 

[King Arts]

So we have to abandon Ukraine, because the opposition of Russia and the CCP to the West is the only thing keeping the anti-Christ away...

That's a new one.

I mean yes, a large amount of the elites in the West are evil fucks, but the leadership of Russia and the CCP aren't any less evil.

I mean yes, biblically the anti christ will lead the most powerful nation or lead a coalition that will dominate the world. That is suspiciously close to the west. It is the sole hyperpower that can exceed everyone else maybe even if they teamed up.

The Russians and Chinese. They are a diffrent type of evil. I'm not saying they are good, far from it. I'd be saying similar things if China was the one that was leading the world. The problem is that all of humanity is coalescing under one system. This would be less bad if we had better space technology so that groups could just fuck off to another asteroid in the solar system. But you yourself said because of our elections we are a bannana republic, well I think it's not good to let one bannana republic have an iron grip on humanity forever. Having two equal evils that are competing against each other is better than having one all powerful evil that is now free to direct it's attention on innocent people instead of fighting against the other evil.