Meme Thread for Both Posting and Discussing Memes

[IndyFront]

. . . Repeat after me.

Fascism is not right wing. Fascism itself denied being right wing. Fascism has no intellectual or historical ties to actual right wing politics or philosophy. Fascism does have direct intellectual and historical ties to left wing politics and philosophy, but also rejects much of leftism.

Fascism described itself as "third way" and if you actually do a truthful and honest look at it Fascism is best described as Authoritarian Centrism, as it rejects much of both right wing and left wing though, while pulling some ideas from each.

The only way to frame "fascism" as "right wing" is if you inherently accept the left's political framing of political philosophy. Do not do this, it is intellectually dishonest of them, purposefully deceptive, and historically inaccurate.

I... almost agree. Fascism isn't inherently right-wing, as it can be right-wing or left-wing. Nazbols are a particularly nasty variant of left-wing fascism, for example.

 

[Doomsought]

Yet more words of wisdom from our friend, Sal the Agorist:

If I could find a surviving example, I'd go with an Iron Age text of a philosopher lambasting the failings of the palace economy.

 

[LordsFire]

I... almost agree. Fascism isn't inherently right-wing, as it can be right-wing or left-wing. Nazbols are a particularly nasty variant of left-wing fascism, for example.

I'm curious in what way you think fascism links to right-wing ideology.

 

[mrttao]

I'm curious in what way you think fascism links to right-wing ideology.

He literally just said it doesn't.

He said there are left wing fascist and right wing fascists.
He believes that that fascism is an add on you can add to any other ideology.

I am guessing he defines fascism as totalitarianism

Although his phrasing does imply that he might think that most right wingers are also fascistic. It is not clear if that is what he is saying or not.
@IndyFront can you clarify

 

[Terthna]

hey now. Marx was mooching off his dad first. he was hilarious if you read up on his life. it is like someone took the worst sort of lefty progressive college student and put him back in time. either that or they all emulate him consciously or not.

It's honestly surprising how mush of a failure of a human being Marx turns out to be, when you actually look beyond his contributions to Communism into his personal life.

 

[Abhorsen]

Eh, I consider fascism socially right. It's strongly based in national pride and can be pro family. That's usually how it is sold, as taking socialism, swapping out class identity for nationalism, and for ditching equity and free love shit for traditional family values.

This ends up describing what a lot of leftist countries end up being because leftism doesn't work, so they start grafting on social ideas from the right as a crutch. And that's why China now acts like a fascist government more than a communist one, because fascism is more practical: They've accidently ended up at fascism's intended end goal.

 

[mrttao]

Eh, I consider fascism socially right. It's strongly based in national pride and can be pro family. That's usually how it is sold, as taking socialism, swapping out class identity for nationalism, and for ditching equity and free love shit for traditional family values.

It seems like everyone has their own unique definition of the word fascism. and nobody can agree on what it means

 

[IndyFront]

He literally just said it doesn't.

He said there are left wing fascist and right wing fascists.
He believes that that fascism is an add on you can add to any other ideology.

I am guessing he defines fascism as totalitarianism

Although his phrasing does imply that he might think that most right wingers are also fascistic. It is not clear if that is what he is saying or not.
@IndyFront can you clarify

I'm saying right-wing =/= fascist. Fascists can be left-wing or centrist too.

 

[Aldarion]

Eh, I consider fascism socially right. It's strongly based in national pride and can be pro family. That's usually how it is sold, as taking socialism, swapping out class identity for nationalism, and for ditching equity and free love shit for traditional family values.

This ends up describing what a lot of leftist countries end up being because leftism doesn't work, so they start grafting on social ideas from the right as a crutch. And that's why China now acts like a fascist government more than a communist one, because fascism is more practical: They've accidently ended up at fascism's intended end goal.

If we define fascism the way you did in the first paragraph, literally every single functional Communist country during history had been forced to become a fascist one in order not to destroy itself...

Progressives OTOH don't do that because destruction of society is their goal to begin with. So unlike Communists, they don't need to take a sanity check.

 

[Blasterbot]

Fascism was literally described as the 3rd path in response to socialism and right wing ideology. it is authoritarian centrism. the authoritarian that discards left and right ideology in favor of gaining more power for itself. it came from the left ideologically true. but it is a truly centrist form of authoritarianism. that people can't understand it is an indictment of the educational system. they decided since they oppose communism they aren't left. that means they must be right. please never read any actual fascist or nazi literature. especially from the time frame. also everyone who disagrees with us is a rightist. who is a fascist. who is a nazi. and you are the worst kind of person if you are a nazi.

 

[mrttao]

I'm saying right-wing =/= fascist. Fascists can be left-wing or centrist too.

thanks for clarifying your position.
but then, what is a fascist to you? am I correct that you define it as totalitarian?

Fascism was literally described as the 3rd path in response to socialism and right wing ideology. it is authoritarian centrism. the authoritarian that discards left and right ideology in favor of gaining more power for itself. it came from the left ideologically true. but it is a truly centrist form of authoritarianism. that people can't understand it is an indictment of the educational system. they decided since they oppose communism they aren't left. that means they must be right. please never read any actual fascist or nazi literature. especially from the time frame. also everyone who disagrees with us is a rightist. who is a fascist. who is a nazi. and you are the worst kind of person if you are a nazi.

Yep, exactly.

 

[IndyFront]

thanks for clarifying your position.
but then, what is a fascist to you? am I correct that you define it as totalitarian?

Yep, exactly.

Fascism is typically characterized by a dictatorship, centralized autocracy and militarism, coupled with a forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy and the (and this is key) subordination of individual interests for the perceived good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy can be seen as left-leaning I suppose.

 

[Scottty]

Well,Hitler cared about german workers,when sralin was happy when his workers lived in shit.

The National Socialists were in essence a Populist government - at least in regard to the German people. If you were anything else than German, it was a different story. But they believed that they derived their legitimacy from the support of the common people. Hence of all Hitler's oratory, to keep that support strong.

Stalin and the Soviets, OTOH, behaved towards the Russian people themselves much the same way the Nazis behaved towards non-Germans. People who were there to be exploited, treated as expendable, and killed off when of no use.

Another difference - /noted by polish jew,Mieczysław Grydzewski if i remember correctly/
if gestapo catch him,they would kill him as jew and polis patriot,BUT it would be at least true
If soviets catch him,they would kill him as german or american spy,which would be lie.

That he always said to his british friends,then if he must choose,he would choose to be killed by germans,not soviets.

So,i usually do not defend german genociders,but,unlike soviets,they at least cared about their own people,and was more honest about their crimes.

If the Nazis wanted you dead, they would shoot you. They would be quick and efficient about it.
If the Soviets wanted you, and your entire family, and everyone else in your village gone, they would starve all of you to death. And pretend that it was just an accident.

They were.And ukrainians welcomed them as liberators.But then Hitler send there dude who liked come with whip to ukrainians gathering,show them it,and told that they are servants and must work as german slaves.

Even their allies from UPA eventually left them/but before that helped kill all jews german could catch/

Later UPA killed poles and jews they hide on their own - and,since they were tortured to death,not simply schoot,you could say that jews killed by germans earlier were lucky one....

The was a German general, IIRC, who later said: "We lost the war the day that we took Kiev, and did not raise the Ukrainian flag over the city". They could have gotten much more support against the Soviets... if only they hadn't been such Nazis.

That wasn't ever an option. Nazis were socialists, stealing was just what they did.

It was what they had to do, after their badly-planned socialism (but I repeat myself) had already messed up the German economy.

I... almost agree. Fascism isn't inherently right-wing, as it can be right-wing or left-wing. Nazbols are a particularly nasty variant of left-wing fascism, for example.

The early spokesmen for Fascism defined their system as being against both Western Capitalism and Soviet-style Communism. Hence - a "third way".
To many of us, that "third way" looks like just another sort of Socialiam, but to hard-line Communists, it looks like just a different form of Capitalism.

 

[IndyFront]

The early spokesmen for Fascism defined their system as being against both Western Capitalism and Soviet-style Communism. Hence - a "third way".
To many of us, that "third way" looks like just another sort of Socialiam, but to hard-line Communists, it looks like just a different form of Capitalism.

I guess its no wonder that the main establishment democrat apologist organization is called "Third Way" lol

 

[mrttao]

If the Nazis wanted you dead, they would shoot you. They would be quick and efficient about it.
If the Soviets wanted you, and your entire family, and everyone else in your village gone, they would starve all of you to death. And pretend that it was just an accident.

Sometimes.
Other times the communists will kidnap and torture you to death.

 

[PsihoKekec]

 

[Abhorsen]

If we define fascism the way you did in the first paragraph, literally every single functional Communist country during history had been forced to become a fascist one in order not to destroy itself...

Progressives OTOH don't do that because destruction of society is their goal to begin with. So unlike Communists, they don't need to take a sanity check.

It doesn't actually. Fascists seize goods of people with the wrong race/ethnicity, not from the rich specifically (this is the substitution of nationalism for class I was talking about). Fascists are quite fine with companies and rich people that serve the government. In fact, other than China, I can't off the top of my head think of a modern country that fits fascism. The USSR and the rest of the socialist/communist countries never went full ethnostate like China has done for the Han. The muslim authoritarian countries all prioritize religion, not race, regardless of what you think of their policies. And most despots prioritize personal power instead of a race based argument, though there could be some African despot that centered their control by race I'm forgetting.

 

[IndyFront]

The muslim authoritarian countries all prioritize religion, not race, regardless of what you think of their policies. And most despots prioritize personal power instead of a race based argument, though there could be some African despot that centered their control by race I'm forgetting.

They don't do it overtly through policy, but Egypt is a pretty racist country iirc, and you've also got some pretty prominent Nazbol movements in Russia and there's the ethno-nationalist Grey Wolves of Turkey, so no, not really entire "fascist countries" really but pretty prominent movements and schools of thought around the world that could be considered "Neo-Fascist" at the very least.

 

[Wargamer08]

It doesn't actually. Fascists seize goods of people with the wrong race/ethnicity, not from the rich specifically (this is the substitution of nationalism for class I was talking about). Fascists are quite fine with companies and rich people that serve the government. In fact, other than China, I can't off the top of my head think of a modern country that fits fascism. The USSR and the rest of the socialist/communist countries never went full ethnostate like China has done for the Han. The muslim authoritarian countries all prioritize religion, not race, regardless of what you think of their policies. And most despots prioritize personal power instead of a race based argument, though there could be some African despot that centered their control by race I'm forgetting.

I recall a lot of ethno rhetoric from South Africa, but I'm pretty sure in practice it was tribalism all the way down. I could be wrong though, maybe they tried to follow through at the start?

 

[Scottty]

I recall a lot of ethno rhetoric from South Africa, but I'm pretty sure in practice it was tribalism all the way down. I could be wrong though, maybe they tried to follow through at the start?

Depends which era of South African history you are asking about. Ever since Union in 1910, there have been people trying to make things fair for everyone, and other people with a basic line of "our people must come first, screw everyone else!"
And that's on all ethnic sides.