Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[Jormungandr]

This is what people don't get, is the Abram's was designed to be used as part of a combined arms force, not the way the old Soviet school of thought treated armored warfare, and unfortunately a lot of Ukraine's older officer corp are still soviet stock.

Ukraine's 2023 counteroffensive was a costly lesson on why you don't use equipment meant for combined arms warfare in a manner fitting of a soviet playbook.

However, until SHORAD catches up with the new drone threat environment, armor is not as useful as it once was in this fight.

Seeing Yak-52 with gunners in the back taking down drones is like the old bi-plane rear-seaters taking down blimps in WW1.

I think that maybe it's time to consider a high-low approach to Ukraine and warfare in the future. Prop-planes with turreted guns can do a lot of things it would be far more expensive to do for air defense, especially against near-ground drones, than with jet fighters.

Wonder what it would take to spin up a reproduction P-61 assembly line, or give Ukraine a bunch of air-to-air modified Super-Tacano's or AC-130's (FC-130?)?

It's kinda fascinating that older techs, a lot of it considered "obsolete" like flak guns, are making comebacks in front of our very eyes to deal with modern problems like drones.

A cheap, mobile platform would be a military truck or even technical to move with armoured divisions to shoot down drones. The cameras and optics would be simple enough.

It's like body armour all over again; plate and mail were made useless by guns, infantry went naked for like three centuries up until post-WW2, and then kevlar and ballistic plates.

 

[Husky_Khan]

Thats the proper way to employ them in the ukrainian context. The idea you are going to use these mass combined arms formations w/o air superiority against an enemy that is superior in firepower is crazy.

Yes your mastery of the obvious is well known and needs no constant reminders.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Yes your mastery of the obvious is well known and needs no constant reminders.

Well when you consider all the people who 1) think the soviets didnt use combined arms, when Deep Operations was all about combined arms and 2) That the Ukrainians have to withdraw the abrams because they 'werent using them right' when it is in fact impossible for them to be used in some mass combined arms operation, well then gee buddy, I dunno, I think maybe its not that obvious.

 

[Husky_Khan]

More Mastery of the Obvious.

Your Strawmen about Soviet Deep Operations wasn't what the video or my post or this discussion was about though buddy. What your reacting to is a pretty obvious rhetorical question in the thumbnail as opposed to a statement of fact. Guess it wasn't made obvious enough for you gee buddy.

EDIT:

If the video was too hard for you to follow but you feel compelled to respond to it, feel free to preface it with a TLDW.

 

[AnimalNoodles]

Your Strawmen about Soviet Deep Operations wasn't what the video or my post or this discussion was about though buddy. What your reacting to is a pretty obvious rhetorical question in the thumbnail as opposed to a statement of fact. Guess it wasn't made obvious enough for you gee buddy.

EDIT:

If the video was too hard for you to follow but you feel compelled to respond to it, feel free to preface it with a TLDW.

I watched the video twice, the day it came out and when it was posted up.

My comment is directed at people who think "well man, if only the ukrainians were using them as intended", when in fact they could not be used 'as intended', because that would make them all drone, mine and artillery fodder.

 

[ATP]

Hey, no plan survives contact with the enemy. For some reason is called enemy...

How could they be so mean? we are good boys,right ?

The enemy always gets a say

As above !
Jokes aside - it remind me bloody idiots Aztecs,who have armies - fighting in places where they agree to fight with enemy who,just like Aztecs,tried to take them alive so they could be killed on altars.

And then those evil spaniards come and fought them whenever it suit them,and killed on the spot.
Barbarians ! how could they!

Sorry,could not resist.

 

[Typhonis]

So the gun truck or an M8 armored car with an M-16 mounted on top could see a return?

 

[Jormungandr]

How could they be so mean? we are good boys,right ?

As above !
Jokes aside - it remind me bloody idiots Aztecs,who have armies - fighting in places where they agree to fight with enemy who,just like Aztecs,tried to take them alive so they could be killed on altars.

And then those evil spaniards come and fought them whenever it suit them,and killed on the spot.
Barbarians ! how could they!

Sorry,could not resist.

I find it funny when liberals say "oh, those poor Aztecs were genocided and colonized by those nasty Spanish!" when the Aztecs themselves were hated by every other indigenous people in their area of operation because they were so fucking barbaric and nasty.

Hell, the natives even joined with the Spanish to take over Tenochtitlan!

 

[Husky_Khan]

So the gun truck or an M8 armored car with an M-16 mounted on top could see a return?

United States and the Czech Republic and other countries and nations have been conjuring up pick up trucks with heavy machine guns and fire control systems to send to Ukraine.

Victor anti-aircraft system: Why it is not just "another gun" on a pickup chassis? - Technology Org

The recently revealed detailed images of the MR-2 Victor anti-aircraft system supplied to the Armed Forces of Ukraine from the Czech Republic clearly

www.technology.org

US providing Ukraine with 30mm gun trucks to blast Iranian drones out of the sky

The Ukrainians are already using radar-assisted machine guns to shoot down Iranian-made drones.

taskandpurpose.com

 

[prinCZess]

United States and the Czech Republic and other countries and nations have been conjuring up pick up trucks with heavy machine guns and fire control systems to send to Ukraine.

Victor anti-aircraft system: Why it is not just "another gun" on a pickup chassis? - Technology Org

The recently revealed detailed images of the MR-2 Victor anti-aircraft system supplied to the Armed Forces of Ukraine from the Czech Republic clearly

www.technology.org

US providing Ukraine with 30mm gun trucks to blast Iranian drones out of the sky

The Ukrainians are already using radar-assisted machine guns to shoot down Iranian-made drones.

taskandpurpose.com

I don't know if I can take a technical seriously if it's built on a Land Cruiser frame.

Seriously, if it's not a Hilux and there was actually some kind of engineering blueprint behind it's design, is it a real gun-truck, or just a professional military's pale imitation?

 

[ATP]

I find it funny when liberals say "oh, those poor Aztecs were genocided and colonized by those nasty Spanish!" when the Aztecs themselves were hated by every other indigenous people in their area of operation because they were so fucking barbaric and nasty.

Hell, the natives even joined with the Spanish to take over Tenochtitlan!

Indeed.And they were stupid,too - they really fough arranged battles,and tried to take alive enemies.
In battle of Otumba, when their army blocked Cortez retreat from Tenotlitchlan,they outnumbered them 30:1 - but still lost,becouse,when Corez killed their commander and felled their main battlestandsrt,rest run.

Every other army in this situation would wipe out spaniards,but with different commander.

 

[Scottty]

 

[SoliFortissimi]

Bro, stop ingesting Russian propaganda. Two minutes of thought would tell you that both nations are nothing alike.

If you really think that the US and Russia are the same, I warn you that it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy. And then you will long for the good old days, but they will never come back.

 

[Rocinante]

Bro, stop ingesting Russian propaganda. Two minutes of thought would tell you that both nations are nothing alike.

If you really think that the US and Russia are the same, I warn you that it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy. And then you will long for the good old days, but they will never come back.

You could replace Russia with almost any country, and the meme is accurate.

It's about how the US does all this stuff (it absolutely does,) but uses euphemisms to make it not sound as bad.

 

[Scottty]

Bro, stop ingesting Russian propaganda. Two minutes of thought would tell you that both nations are nothing alike.

If you really think that the US and Russia are the same, I warn you that it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy. And then you will long for the good old days, but they will never come back.

Don't be so boolean in your thinking. Two countries can be both very different in all sorts of important ways, while also having some of the same problems and being in denial about it.

No, this is not about Russia and the USA being the same. We know they are not. But there are some disturbing common trends, ways the West is in fact going down the same path as some other civilizations.

Russia is an honest dictatorship. The USA pretends to be a democracy, but... how much control does the elected part of the government really have?

 

[SoliFortissimi]

ussia is an honest dictatorship. The USA pretends to be a democracy, but... how much control does the elected part of the government really have

No, Russia routinely pretends to have elections- completely rigged elections where only Putin or his puppet Medvedev can win. The US, meanwhile, is a country where a man hated by the entire political establishment can gain power and hold it for his entire term, while the darling child fades into obscurity.

These nations are nothing alike. Equating them is just a desperate attempt to make Russia seem more legitimate, and to demoralize Americans and remove their faith in their political institutions.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Russia targeting civilians? Not that they give a shit and nothing will ever come of it because of their position in the UN, but I'm pretty sure that's a, ya know, war crime.

It’s a waste of munitions as well. A full cluster bomb just to kill that poor lady’s dogs.

Is Russia run by fucking Saturday Morning cartoon villains or something?

 

[Jormungandr]

It’s a waste of munitions as well. A full cluster bomb just to kill that poor lady’s dogs.

Is Russia by fucking Saturday Morning cartoon villains or something?

Yes.

 

[Typhonis]

And not even the good kind. David Xanatos , Hell Cobra Commander would be an improvement.

 

[Bacle]

And not even the good kind. David Xanatos , Hell Cobra Commander would be an improvement.

Which is why the west needs to go full Magneto on Russia for what it has done to Ukraine.