• The Sietch will be brought offline for HPG systems maintenance tomorrow (Thursday, 2 May 2024). Please remain calm and do not start any interstellar wars while ComStar is busy. May the Peace of Blake be with you. Precentor Dune

Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

lloyd007

Well-known member
And nothing of value was lost; hope they keep a rope just for him at Nuremberg 3.0 (2.0 is for Fauci and co).
If it wasn't for the fact that he can shout loudly on the internet and has the ability to reside in the worst country imaginable given what he shouts, nothing I've seen suggests Coach Deadpill rises to any level of internationally recognized crimes.

Ukraine doing whatever is a different story, penning unironic love letters to Putin and Shoigu and posting them for the whole world to see while living in Kharkhiv while being born in Calaughfornia with your family originally from S. America (i.e. it's not like you're in any way actually Ukrainian) means you take what you get.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
If it wasn't for the fact that he can shout loudly on the internet and has the ability to reside in the worst country imaginable given what he shouts, nothing I've seen suggests Coach Deadpill rises to any level of internationally recognized crimes.

Ukraine doing whatever is a different story, penning unironic love letters to Putin and Shoigu and posting them for the whole world to see while living in Kharkhiv while being born in Calaughfornia with your family originally from S. America (i.e. it's not like you're in any way actually Ukrainian) means you take what you get.
Lira was caught photographing Ukrainian air defense units and trying to pass the info to the FSB; Ukraine could have shot him as a spy months ago.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
1:06 is just brutal. They're Russians, yeah, but seeing flying death coming towards you like that and not being able to do anything about it except covering yourself in vain? RIP.

Yeah…

Some day, I think the whine of a kamikaze drone swarm will be as iconic for future generations as Stuka dive bomber sirens from World War II are for us. Heck, judging by that footage, the targets may not even receive the same warning before getting blown to smithereens. :(
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
Sympathy and compassion are wasted on Russians these days; the faster Russians at the front die, the less Ukrainians die and the faster they retake their land.

Treat Russians as orcs and Russia as Mordor, do not waste compassion or mercy on a nation who only object to the invasion of Ukraine because it's been carried out incompetently.
 

Zyobot

Just a time-traveling robot stranded on Earth.
Sympathy and compassion are wasted on Russians these days; the faster Russians at the front die, the less Ukrainians die and the faster they retake their land.

Treat Russians as orcs and Russia as Mordor, do not waste compassion or mercy on a nation who only object to the invasion of Ukraine because it's been carried out incompetently.

That's like saying sympathy and compassion for German, Italian, and Japanese troops in World War II would've been wasted.

While they were certainly on the wrong side, they were still humans with hopes, dreams, and feelings of their own who probably didn't have much of a choice in being brainwashed and coerced into signing up. Really, a bit of humanization might do us good; although the larger factions may be clearly "good" or clearly "bad", on-the-ground realities for everyday people may be different.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
That's like saying sympathy and compassion for German, Italian, and Japanese troops in World War II would've been wasted.

While they were certainly on the wrong side, they were still humans with hopes, dreams, and feelings of their own who probably didn't have much of a choice in being brainwashed and coerced into signing up. Really, a bit of humanization might do us good; although the larger factions may be clearly "good" or clearly "bad", on-the-ground realities for everyday people may be different.
I'd spare compassion for Russian's if it had not been shown time and again how most of the Russian populace is fine with this invasion, just upset it's not going as well as they would like.

Treat them like orcs, contain them to Mordor, and make it so their neighbors have all the tools needed to beat back any incursion with maximum force.

The only 'good' Russians are those 'Free Russian Legion' and 'Russian Volunteer Corp' that are fighting for Ukraine/doing the cross-border raids near Belgorod.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
I'd spare compassion for Russian's if it had not been shown time and again how most of the Russian populace is fine with this invasion, just upset it's not going as well as they would like.

Treat them like orcs, contain them to Mordor, and make it so their neighbors have all the tools needed to beat back any incursion with maximum force.

The only 'good' Russians are those 'Free Russian Legion' and 'Russian Volunteer Corp' that are fighting for Ukraine/doing the cross-border raids near Belgorod.
"Most of the Russian populace" hasn't been thrown onto the front lines with little training, supplies, pay, or hope.

I wonder if you're confusing something here. Compassion for the Russian soldier, making sure we remember that he is also human and suffering, does not mean going easy on him. The way to minimize deaths in a high intensity war has always been to end said war as quickly as possible, as brutally as necessary for the sake of speed within the law, because the passage of time is the largest measure of how bloody it will be.

I suppose it is easier to imagine you are not killing real people. I wouldn't hold it against the soldiers doing the shooting, if that helps them, as long as it doesn't cause them to forget to obey the laws of war. But there is no reason for us to be doing it in the safety of our own homes. It only causes more trouble.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
But there is no reason for us to be doing it in the safety of our own homes. It only causes more trouble.
This is where you are wrong; there is plenty of reason to dehumanize and cast outside human norms the Russian populace as things currently stand.

This is not going to be a short war, and the less the general populace of western nations view Russians as 'just other people like them', even when those people support the current invasion, the faster support and aid to Ukraine will flow.

As well, shifting the general western populace towards viewing Russians in general as a threat to be contained militarily, not negotiated with or appeased, makes it far harder for Russia to pull anything else on any of it's other neighbors.
 

Megadeath

Well-known member
This is where you are wrong; there is plenty of reason to dehumanize and cast outside human norms the Russian populace as things currently stand.

This is not going to be a short war, and the less the general populace of western nations view Russians as 'just other people like them', even when those people support the current invasion, the faster support and aid to Ukraine will flow.

As well, shifting the general western populace towards viewing Russians in general as a threat to be contained militarily, not negotiated with or appeased, makes it far harder for Russia to pull anything else on any of it's other neighbors.
That's true and makes sense, but it's also morally repugnant. In times of survival it can be a tough necessity to discard morals and ethics, and I wouldn't blame a Ukrainian for such views. You don't have that excuse though, and making an immoral choice purely to support a political position, even an important and just one that I personally agree with, is just gross.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
That's true and makes sense, but it's also morally repugnant. In times of survival it can be a tough necessity to discard morals and ethics, and I wouldn't blame a Ukrainian for such views. You don't have that excuse though, and making an immoral choice purely to support a political position, even an important and just one that I personally agree with, is just gross.
Containing Russia's madness to their own borders is going to be a matter of survival for more than just Ukraine, going into the future.

Anyone who borders Russia, which includes the US (Alaska says hi), should operate under the assumption that Russia will only get more belligerent, more desiring of imperial glory, not less, even after they lose their invasion in Ukraine,

You can call it morally repugnant and gross to take this view of Russia and the Russian people, unless you are actively fighting them like Ukraine, at this stage, if you want to continue to think 'moral superiority' matters worth a damn when dealing with Russian public or state opinion.

I'm taking the view that I am because I do not foresee a thawing of relations with Russia in our lifetimes, after what they have done in Ukraine and will likely continue to try to do elsewhere after the long drawn out fight to remove Russian forces from Ukraine. Therefore, I do not see the long term reasoning of trying to keep Russian's 'humanity' in the minds of the western public, rather than rhetoric and plans based on containment and educated distrust of anything any Russian says to someone in the west about anything.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
This is where you are wrong; there is plenty of reason to dehumanize and cast outside human norms the Russian populace as things currently stand.

This is not going to be a short war, and the less the general populace of western nations view Russians as 'just other people like them', even when those people support the current invasion, the faster support and aid to Ukraine will flow.

As well, shifting the general western populace towards viewing Russians in general as a threat to be contained militarily, not negotiated with or appeased, makes it far harder for Russia to pull anything else on any of it's other neighbors.
I'm curious if you would be willing to extend the same line of thinking to the populations of other interesting places, like North Korea, China, Iran, Yemen, Palestine and Syria.
Of course it is long overdue for western populations to realize that non-western people obviously not "just other people like them", they are slightly or not so slightly different people in fact.
Russians, Iranians, Arabs, North Koreans and the like, are people who have spent more or less decades worked on by one or another kind of very far reaching, society dominating ideological hegemony of some rather unsavory by western standards government, obviously this shit has to have some effect, if it didn't, no one would be doing it anymore considering how many times it was done by how many rulers.
Consider the whole hoopla about post-WW2 denazification, and that's only with the NSDAP being in charge of German society for what, 12 years? Those are rookie numbers compared to all the abovementioned in terms of grand influence on a nation's culture and customs.

People like Solzhenitsyn have noticed a century ago such a characteristic among Russian population nearly a century ago already.
In any case, Soviet society certainly wasn't ready to closely examine what had happened during the height of the gulags. When Russian writer Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn published The Gulag Archipelago, one of the first publicized accounts of the horrors of the gulag, in 1973, he lost his Soviet citizenship and was forced to flee the country. Solzhenitsyn didn't return until 1994, a few years after the collapse of the Soviet Union.


"What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say goodbye to his family?" Solzhenitsyn famously demanded in his explosive work.


"Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?"
Sounds familiar? The heavy handed Tsarist rule has trained its people right the way it wanted - to shut the hell up and do what they're told, none of the protesting and rebelling shit some other nations practice, and all its successor states see great utility in continuing and improving upon such implanted culture of fear and passivity.

In a not so unlikely scenario a similar situation happens with Iran, China or North Korea, we will be asking the same questions.

Containing Russia's madness to their own borders is going to be a matter of survival for more than just Ukraine, going into the future.

Anyone who borders Russia, which includes the US (Alaska says hi), should operate under the assumption that Russia will only get more belligerent, more desiring of imperial glory, not less, even after they lose their invasion in Ukraine,

You can call it morally repugnant and gross to take this view of Russia and the Russian people, unless you are actively fighting them like Ukraine, at this stage, if you want to continue to think 'moral superiority' matters worth a damn when dealing with Russian public or state opinion.

I'm taking the view that I am because I do not foresee a thawing of relations with Russia in our lifetimes, after what they have done in Ukraine and will likely continue to try to do elsewhere after the long drawn out fight to remove Russian forces from Ukraine. Therefore, I do not see the long term reasoning of trying to keep Russian's 'humanity' in the minds of the western public, rather than rhetoric and plans based on containment and educated distrust of anything any Russian says to someone in the west about anything.
Not with the current establishment at least. But regardless of that, well, think again if you are willing to go so far against all the other peoples with very odious by western standards customs and governments, including views on matters of war, rulership and violence in pursuit of those. Rather than picking out this one problem bunch for dehumanization, i'd rather say that the western public should take this as a reminder that platitudes about common humanity, no matter how often, loudly and sincerely repeated, in no way pose some sort of idealistic example that everyone will feel compelled to copy, in fact to some such unwillingness to swing a big stick at societies who are clearly out of line, even if poor and historically unfortunate, only encourages further transgressions supported with a sense of impunity among the observers, including some fairly strong and ambitious ones, who in turn proceed to push the lines further.

Or in other words, various stupid laws, ideas and compromises of old made in the name of more often than not leftist ideals need to either go, or at least have major, common sense "self-preservation and security" carve-outs, starting with the weird obsession about disarmament treaties, diplomat's wishful thinking, and insanity hiding under the cover of "human rights" in matters of not controlling illegal immigration in most of the West, not to mention the pyramids of delusions built around the concept of global citizenship, instead of just excepting Russians and Russia from them.

And China will be watching what, if anything, we do about these things - if we let the wretches and barbarians of the world get away with crazy shit and no more than a gentle tap in return, aspiring world powers like Russia and China can only wonder how far can they go before they will get a meaningful pushback from us.
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
I'm curious if you would be willing to extend the same line of thinking to the populations of other interesting places, like North Korea, China, Iran, Yemen, Palestine and Syria.
Of course it is long overdue for western populations to realize that non-western people obviously not "just other people like them", they are slightly or not so slightly different people in fact.
Russians, Iranians, Arabs, North Koreans and the like, are people who have spent more or less decades worked on by one or another kind of very far reaching, society dominating ideological hegemony of some rather unsavory by western standards government, obviously this shit has to have some effect, if it didn't, no one would be doing it anymore considering how many times it was done by how many rulers.
Consider the whole hoopla about post-WW2 denazification, and that's only with the NSDAP being in charge of German society for what, 12 years? Those are rookie numbers compared to all the abovementioned in terms of grand influence on a nation's culture and customs.

People like Solzhenitsyn have noticed a century ago such a characteristic among Russian population nearly a century ago already.

Sounds familiar? The heavy handed Tsarist rule has trained its people right the way it wanted - to shut the hell up and do what they're told, none of the protesting and rebelling shit some other nations practice, and all its successor states see great utility in continuing and improving upon such implanted culture of fear and passivity.

In a not so unlikely scenario a similar situation happens with Iran, China or North Korea, we will be asking the same questions.
About the only nation that might be salvageable in the long term of those mentioned is Iran.

Syria is a zombie that doesn't matter outside the Kurdish areas, the CCP are already doing the dehumanizing of the west so we are just responding in kind, the Norks are so far beyond sanity that containment is the only option. Palestine is not a nation, just hopped up refugee camps for Jordanian/Lebanese citizens, and Yemen is a hellhole no one can fix without effective dealing with Iran first.

I've thrown off the delusion that every nation is just one regime change away from becoming USA 2.0, or that their populatins do not generally approve of the bullshit their govs do against the West.

Iran I think can be salvaged if the Ayatollah and IRGC are removed from the picture via force, because Iran has had enough outside contact and influence the propaganda doesn't work on the populace the same way it does in Russia, the CCP, or NK.
Not with the current establishment at least. But regardless of that, well, think again if you are willing to go so far against all the other peoples with very odious by western standards customs and governments, including views on matters of war, rulership and violence in pursuit of those. Rather than picking out this one problem bunch for dehumanization, i'd rather say that the western public should take this as a reminder that platitudes about common humanity, no matter how often, loudly and sincerely repeated, in no way pose some sort of idealistic example that everyone will feel compelled to copy, in fact to some such unwillingness to swing a big stick at societies who are clearly out of line, even if poor and historically unfortunate, only encourages further transgressions supported with a sense of impunity among the observers, including some fairly strong and ambitious ones, who in turn proceed to push the lines further.

Or in other words, various stupid laws, ideas and compromises of old made in the name of more often than not leftist ideals need to either go, or at least have major, common sense "self-preservation and security" carve-outs, starting with the weird obsession about disarmament treaties, diplomat's wishful thinking, and insanity hiding under the cover of "human rights" in matters of not controlling illegal immigration in most of the West, not to mention the pyramids of delusions built around the concept of global citizenship, instead of just excepting Russians and Russia from them.

And China will be watching what, if anything, we do about these things - if we let the wretches and barbarians of the world get away with crazy shit and no more than a gentle tap in return, aspiring world powers like Russia and China can only wonder how far can they go before they will get a meaningful pushback from us.
I tend to agree here; appeals to the 'humanity' of groups who only respect strength and the will to use it are wasted efforts in general.
 

Marduk

Well-known member
Moderator
Staff Member
About the only nation that might be salvageable in the long term of those mentioned is Iran.

Syria is a zombie that doesn't matter outside the Kurdish areas, the CCP are already doing the dehumanizing of the west so we are just responding in kind, the Norks are so far beyond sanity that containment is the only option. Palestine is not a nation, just hopped up refugee camps for Jordanian/Lebanese citizens, and Yemen is a hellhole no one can fix without effective dealing with Iran first.

I've thrown off the delusion that every nation is just one regime change away from becoming USA 2.0, or that their populatins do not generally approve of the bullshit their govs do against the West.

Iran I think can be salvaged if the Ayatollah and IRGC are removed from the picture via force, because Iran has had enough outside contact and influence the propaganda doesn't work on the populace the same way it does in Russia, the CCP, or NK.

I tend to agree here; appeals to the 'humanity' of groups who only respect strength and the will to use it are wasted efforts in general.
It goes deeper than merely approving or not of the government foreign policy. It's a matter of their relationship with their government overall, in which it is not their place to disapprove or approve of the important people's actions, especially such more distant from daily life things like foreign policy, their place is to try get on with their lives and beg the governments to mercifully not get in the way of that too much, while anyone who pushes beyond this arrangement will be made to regret it. No matter what government comes next and what ideology will it hold dear, it will be able to easily reassert a similar understanding with such a population.
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
The biggest thing about Russia is that it is basically France during the years after Franco-Prussia and before WW1. In addition, Putin has been keeping a cap on the nationalism and Revanchism sentiment for decades, meaning that we're going to be stuck with him in a 'devil you know' situation, though that isn't likely going to last for long either way.

The biggest problem is how things go in the aftermath. The only way to ensure peace is assured is the widescale occupation of Russia (splitting Russia up is bad geopolitical juju, end of story), but such an occupation wouldn't be viable due to the massive costs involved if the nuclear question isn't put into the equation. Given that all of Putin's possible replacements tend to be of the 'make Putin look like a fluffy puppy' bent, we'll just be setting up for a round two nuclear (and whatever technologies the replacement decides to abuse) boogaloo.

As such, we're still in the tightrope phase of geopolitical balance.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
This is where you are wrong; there is plenty of reason to dehumanize and cast outside human norms the Russian populace as things currently stand.

This is not going to be a short war, and the less the general populace of western nations view Russians as 'just other people like them', even when those people support the current invasion, the faster support and aid to Ukraine will flow.

As well, shifting the general western populace towards viewing Russians in general as a threat to be contained militarily, not negotiated with or appeased, makes it far harder for Russia to pull anything else on any of it's other neighbors.
When did I say the people of the west should view the people of Russia as "just like them"? I said we should view them as people. This does not stop us from correctly viewing Russia as a foe that is not trustworthy enough to be negotiated with, except from a position of overwhelming strength, or in cases where the fruit of such negotiation is immediate, where a deal is superior to no deal even if it's betrayed the very next day. (There is also the possibility of obtaining guarantees from a mediator they won't be willing to betray, perhaps China, but that would be more like negotiating with China than with Russia.)

I don't even agree that dehumanizing the enemy will materially help the pace of western aid to Ukraine, a natural prerequisite to your claim that such upped pace would be worth the cost.

For a comparison, most people revile cults like Scientology. The organization deserves to be destroyed, and only the rule of law stays our hand as long as the organization can contrive to cower under the law's protection. The people in its thrall cannot be trusted; yet we recognize their humanity, and we wish the best for them, and the best starts with winning free of the influence of the cult. In the meantime we recognize that for many that day will never come and are as suspicious of potential false conversions as circumstances warrant.
Containing Russia's madness to their own borders is going to be a matter of survival for more than just Ukraine, going into the future.

Anyone who borders Russia, which includes the US (Alaska says hi), should operate under the assumption that Russia will only get more belligerent, more desiring of imperial glory, not less, even after they lose their invasion in Ukraine,

You can call it morally repugnant and gross to take this view of Russia and the Russian people, unless you are actively fighting them like Ukraine, at this stage, if you want to continue to think 'moral superiority' matters worth a damn when dealing with Russian public or state opinion.

I'm taking the view that I am because I do not foresee a thawing of relations with Russia in our lifetimes, after what they have done in Ukraine and will likely continue to try to do elsewhere after the long drawn out fight to remove Russian forces from Ukraine. Therefore, I do not see the long term reasoning of trying to keep Russian's 'humanity' in the minds of the western public, rather than rhetoric and plans based on containment and educated distrust of anything any Russian says to someone in the west about anything.
I don't think of it as moral superiority per se. I think of it as remaining moral in the face of immorality, while you seem content to sink to the level of whatever enemy you happen to be facing. As Megadeath said, sometimes bare survival takes priority over hard-won civilization, but where victory is feasible without discarding humanity humanity should not be discarded.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
The biggest thing about Russia is that it is basically France during the years after Franco-Prussia and before WW1. In addition, Putin has been keeping a cap on the nationalism and Revanchism sentiment for decades, meaning that we're going to be stuck with him in a 'devil you know' situation, though that isn't likely going to last for long either way.

The biggest problem is how things go in the aftermath. The only way to ensure peace is assured is the widescale occupation of Russia (splitting Russia up is bad geopolitical juju, end of story), but such an occupation wouldn't be viable due to the massive costs involved if the nuclear question isn't put into the equation. Given that all of Putin's possible replacements tend to be of the 'make Putin look like a fluffy puppy' bent, we'll just be setting up for a round two nuclear (and whatever technologies the replacement decides to abuse) boogaloo.

As such, we're still in the tightrope phase of geopolitical balance.
Are you sure it's not more like a weaker Nazi Germany? I suppose Ukraine would be a hybrid Czechoslovakia/Poland in this analogy. Fortunately, for all CCP China's sins it's not Soviet Russia.

(Fortunately Russia's method of keeping people from opposing it seems to rely on bone-deep political apathy/passivity rather than the death cult of the Nazis ... because death cultists with nukes is even worse than gangsters with nukes.)
 

Aaron Fox

Well-known member
Are you sure it's not more like a weaker Nazi Germany? I suppose Ukraine would be a hybrid Czechoslovakia/Poland in this analogy. Fortunately, for all CCP China's sins it's not Soviet Russia.
That isn't the case. I think you're not reading what I've said correctly.

In the ye old days of the mid-to-late 19th century (i.e., the 1800s), France got its ass handed to it during the Franco-Prussian War. This war ended so badly for France that it created a whole new ideology: Revanchism. I.e., basically, REVENGE! (no, seriously, that's what it basically is). France soon became dedicated to this ideology, which led to the events of World War 1.

If Russia is defeated and Putin is deposed, well, given that reality has been pulling a lot out of fiction as of late (usually reality takes fiction once every few blue moons, but it has been ramping up on stealing fiction's plotlines/telling fiction to hold its beer), we'll see someone akin to Grigor "The Crocodile" Stoyanovich from Empire Earth 1 (basically Stalin 2.0) replacing Putin or the intermediate leadership.


Yeah, a game back in the 2000s predicted Ukraine after a fashion...
(Fortunately Russia's method of keeping people from opposing it seems to rely on bone-deep political apathy/passivity rather than the death cult of the Nazis ... because death cultists with nukes is even worse than gangsters with nukes.)
That heavily depends on who is in charge, historically. We're just in a Revanchism period with all that it entails.
 

strunkenwhite

Well-known member
That isn't the case. I think you're not reading what I've said correctly.

In the ye old days of the mid-to-late 19th century (i.e., the 1800s), France got its ass handed to it during the Franco-Prussian War. This war ended so badly for France that it created a whole new ideology: Revanchism. I.e., basically, REVENGE! (no, seriously, that's what it basically is). France soon became dedicated to this ideology, which led to the events of World War 1.

If Russia is defeated and Putin is deposed, well, given that reality has been pulling a lot out of fiction as of late (usually reality takes fiction once every few blue moons, but it has been ramping up on stealing fiction's plotlines/telling fiction to hold its beer), we'll see someone akin to Grigor "The Crocodile" Stoyanovich from Empire Earth 1 (basically Stalin 2.0) replacing Putin or the intermediate leadership.

That heavily depends on who is in charge, historically. We're just in a Revanchism period with all that it entails.
I understood the reference you were making. I was suggesting that there might be a better one available. At the very least, though I didn't mention it before, I dispute your claim that Putin was tamping down nationalist/expansionist/revanchist sentiment over his time at the top.

Now, revanchism might be the way things go in the future after Russia loses the current war. I will hold speculation on that until we are closer to the end, to have more perspective on what shape things might be expected to take after the end. But I confess to curiosity as to what you're imagining that would inspire the "fluffy puppy" comment. It seems unlikely that anyone would be able to take charge who's so self-destructive as to resort to nuclear warfare in the aftermath of a lost conventional one, but I'm willing to listen.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top