Armchair General's DonbAss Derailed Discussion Thread (Topics Include History, Traps, and the Ongoing Slavic Civil War plus much much more)

[ATP]

About Moscov propaganda that ukrainians should become russians - i just remembered,that it is copy of tsars propaganda against poles in 19th century - they also wanted turn us into russians.

For exactly the same reason - just like now Putin belive,that without Ykraine Moscov would fall,tsar Nicolai 1th belived,that if poles do not turn into russians,his empire would fall.

 

[Batrix2070]

For exactly the same reason - just like now Putin belive,that without Ykraine Moscov would fall,tsar Nicolai 1th belived,that if poles do not turn into russians,his empire would fall.

All in all, it can be said that he was right, his Empire eventually collapsed without Poland, apparently it is time for Putin's Empire to collapse without Ukraine ending this era in Moscow's history.

 

[ATP]

All in all, it can be said that he was right, his Empire eventually collapsed without Poland, apparently it is time for Putin's Empire to collapse without Ukraine ending this era in Moscow's history.

Well,it is true - but he was mad enough to belive,that Russia would fall IF THEY DO NOT TURN POLES INTO RUSSIANS.
And that was madness - as long as Poland do not existed,our existence do not destroyed his empire.

I am reading book of Andrzej Nowak "Metamorfozy imperium rosyjskiego 1721-1921'/my translation - Metamorphosis of russian empire 1721-1921/ - and,to be frank,russians were really mad.
Even compared to Mickiewicz and his belive that we are Messiah of nations.

And,it seems that kgb is doing everything they could to destroy their state,BUT - DO NOT FEAR,USA deep state,Germany and Izrael would save Moscov !
Or,at least they would try.We would see.

 

[WolfBear]

Good news, if true/serious:

Russia's Putin says he won't use nuclear weapons in Ukraine

Russian President Vladimir Putin has denied having any intentions of using nuclear weapons in Ukraine but described the conflict there as part of alleged efforts by the West to secure its global domination.

apnews.com

 

[planefag]

Eh, I'd be worried about the radiation, too.

One of those suckers going off is going to cause a lot of radioactive sea-bottom to get chucked onto the shore, and well, it's completely possible the nukes in the Status-6's are salted nukes.

You have to remember that the Russians were so helpless against our attack subs that they pulled their boomers back to near-shore "bastions" where they could protect them with airpower and surface ships, and despite all those very, very competent ASW assets guarding them we still were routinely infiltrating said bastions with our own SSN's to trail their boomer subs. You really think the Russians could sortie that huge boat across the Atlantic and do any better, after the collapse of the Soviet Union put their tech development on hold for 20 years, in a game where you have to run as fast as possible just to keep your place?

lol_lmao_scorpion.png

 

[History Learner]

You have to remember that the Russians were so helpless against our attack subs that they pulled their boomers back to near-shore "bastions" where they could protect them with airpower and surface ships, and despite all those very, very competent ASW assets guarding them we still were routinely infiltrating said bastions with our own SSN's to trail their boomer subs.

Is that why they continued to station second generation SSBNs off the U.S. coast? Is that why we didn't achieve penetration of the bastion areas until the 1990s? Likewise, can we infer from your statements that the U.S. Navy is as lackluster as the Soviets were then, as you allege, given they too are now adopting the Bastion concept:

Well, bastions are back. Worse, they are proliferating and are more formidable than ever. And today, they are being employed for operational and strategic offensive purposes. As such, battling bastions represents the future of naval and probably land warfare. Though China and Russia represent the leading edge of modern bastion development, as advanced weapons technologies — particularly precision missiles — diffuse and become plentiful, other nations — North Korea, Vietnam, Iran, Israel, Taiwan — are implementing the bastion concept, either to ward off enemies or as secure bases from which to threaten their neighbors. Even the United States — keen to defend its forward bases in the Pacific and logistics hubs in Europe — is developing concepts calling for the rapid placement of bastions across the globe.​

ou really think the Russians could sortie that huge boat across the Atlantic and do any better, after the collapse of the Soviet Union put their tech development on hold for 20 years, in a game where you have to run as fast as possible just to keep your place?

lol_lmao_scorpion.png

Given old Chinese diesel submarines have repeatedly embarrassed the U.S. Navy by popping up in the middle of CBGs undetected, yeah, I think they can. Especially given the fact the Russians have been revitalizing and modernizing their submarine forces for almost 20 years now and are starting to deploy advanced boats that are giving NATO navies fits:

In a 2019 interview with 60 Minutes, a US Navy admiral said that Russia has a "very capable submarine force," and that increased Russian submarine activity gives him pause.​

​

Talking about the Severodvinsk specifically, the admiral said that the Severodvinsk is "a brand new class of submarine, and it's very capable, and it's very quiet, so that's the most important thing I think, in submarine warfare."​

​

Although he would not comment on reports that the US Navy lost the Severodvinsk, Pentagon officials said that the Severodvinsk went into the Atlantic Ocean in 2018 — and managed to evade detection for weeks.​

​

During peacetime, losing a Russian submarine is a headache. During a conflict, losing track of a submarine is deadly.​

 

[Zachowon]

US has always been ahead except for AD.
That's about it.
We made our nukes compact and fit more in a smaller sub compared to the ruskies

 

[History Learner]

US has always been ahead except for AD.
That's about it.

Except for most of the Cold War in general and, most recently, hypersonic weapons and artillery (both tube and MLRS).

We made our nukes compact and fit more in a smaller sub compared to the ruskies

Not really sure how that relates to what I posted, but you do realize our SSBN classes are the same size, right?

 

[Zachowon]

Except for most of the Cold War in general and, most recently, hypersonic weapons and artillery (both tube and MLRS).



Not really sure how that relates to what I posted, but you do realize our SSBN classes are the same size, right?

Uh...
What?
We have been developing hypersonic weapons since before any other nation and have been ahead if the curve. We just dont brag about it like every other country.

And the MRLS stuff is definitely not true. HIMARS vs SMERCH has proven this.
US has accuracy.

Typhoon class vs Ohio class

 

[Marduk]

The whole talk about hypersonic weapon ignores one simple strategic imbalance in this area - the main reason why this technology is developed is, above all, to help overcome advanced missile defenses... That no one outside the West and its allies has in meaningful quantities. The West is as such keeping up half-heartedly, only for the sake of keeping up, because the competition is not keeping up in the area (anti missile defenses) which they are meant to help overcome. What's the point, when the enemy struggles with even much cheaper and simpler missiles?
That applies both to proper, maneuvering hypersonic weapons, as well as mostly propaganda ones (strap a plain ol' short range ballistic missile to a jet, launch it with 2 machs of extra speed, call it a hypersonic weapon, celebrate how technologically advanced you are).

Except for most of the Cold War in general and, most recently, hypersonic weapons and artillery (both tube and MLRS).

You are fucking clueless and talk shit about things you know nothing about.
Where is Russian HIMARS?
Where is Russian Excalibur?

Not really sure how that relates to what I posted, but you do realize our SSBN classes are the same size, right?

Aaaaaand how many SLBM tubes do they have?

 

[History Learner]

Uh...
What?
We have been developing hypersonic weapons since before any other nation and have been ahead if the curve. We just dont brag about it like every other country.

Key word there being developing, because we haven't been able to get a single system into production and from there into combat. Russia has, and the idea we're just being quiet about it is cope when the Pentagon just recently announced our first successful test.

And the MRLS stuff is definitely not true. HIMARS vs SMERCH has proven this.
US has accuracy.

It's 100% true and this is exactly why you had to compare to their last gen systems to our current gen ones. Comparing HIMARs to Tornado reveals they've about matched us in accuracy but have almost 50% greater range in their systems.

Typhoon class vs Ohio class

Or, again, you could compare their current gen of Borlei to the Ohios, which are both 170 meters. Ohio has more SLBM tubes but Borlei has more torpedo tubes.

 

[History Learner]

The whole talk about hypersonic weapon ignores one simple strategic imbalance in this area - the main reason why this technology is developed is, above all, to help overcome advanced missile defenses... That no one outside the West and its allies has in meaningful quantities. The West is as such keeping up half-heartedly, only for the sake of keeping up, because the competition is not keeping up in the area (anti missile defenses) which they are meant to help overcome. What's the point, when the enemy struggles with even much cheaper and simpler missiles?
That applies both to proper, maneuvering hypersonic weapons, as well as mostly propaganda ones (strap a plain ol' short range ballistic missile to a jet, launch it with 2 machs of extra speed, call it a hypersonic weapon, celebrate how technologically advanced you are).

That's an utterly fascinating cope, to be sure, but the problem is the Pentagon directly says you're full of shit.

You are fucking clueless and talk shit about things you know nothing about.

Yeah, that sums you up quite nicely and I picked up on that after I demolished you in the first few arguments we had. Stay mad, Marduk., because you're never going to be smarter than me.

Where is Russian HIMARS?

It's called Tornado.

Where is Russian Excalibur?

Should be entering production soon.

Aaaaaand how many SLBM tubes do they have?

Which system, Sweetie? Maybe if you bothered to read up more before attempting to argue with your betters, you'd know there are multiple systems.

 

[Marduk]

That's an utterly fascinating cope, to be sure, but the problem is the Pentagon directly says you're full of shit.

No it doesn't?

Yeah, that sums you up quite nicely and I picked up on that after I demolished you in the first few arguments we had. Stay mad, Marduk., because you're never going to be smarter than me.

Lol, cope harder, the only thing you have demolished is your credibility in any military matters.
Stay dumb, History Learner, you will always be the dumbest in the thread.

It's called Tornado.

Aaaaand what kinds of guided missiles does it fire? What CEP do they have?

Should be entering production soon.

So like Armata and Su-57, napkinwaffe.
Meanwhile Excalibur is in service and active use since over a decade, used in several wars, sold to several countries.
So in conclusion, who is behind?

Which system, Sweetie? Maybe if you bothered to read up more before attempting to argue with your betters, you'd know there are multiple systems.

All of the currently in-service ones, there aren't many, you lazy evasive ass.

 

[Zachowon]

Key word there being developing, because we haven't been able to get a single system into production and from there into combat. Russia has, and the idea we're just being quiet about it is cope when the Pentagon just recently announced our first successful test.



It's 100% true and this is exactly why you had to compare to their last gen systems to our current gen ones. Comparing HIMARs to Tornado reveals they've about matched us in accuracy but have almost 50% greater range in their systems.



Or, again, you could compare their current gen of Borlei to the Ohios, which are both 170 meters. Ohio has more SLBM tubes but Borlei has more torpedo tubes.

You do know that the hypersonic missles of our adversaries are woefully underdeveloped and have not shown any combat capabilities....

And as for MRLS..
You do know the M270 is better then the Tornado that is replacing the Smerch.
And the Tornado still isn't anywhere as good accuracy wise.
US favors accuracy over amount. As shown with HIMARS kicking all of the Russian versions butts.button.

Also, where are the super advanced systems that Russia has.
Where are the T-14s, the BMP-Ts, the SU-57s, 5he T-15s?
The systems you keep mentioning are so low in production they arnt going to be used except as propoganda.

Also, the US has better guided munitions then thay of the Russians. Hell, ALL of NATO has better guided munitions then that of the Russians.
You have Excalibur rounds, which are old as hell for the US. You have GLMRS, which again, are old as hell. ATACMS. Again, old as hell and still more accurate then the newest guided munitions Russia has.

 

[Megadeath]

In the propaganda being produced by the West, sure, but in reality not at all. No one was claiming Ukraine would fall in 72 hours before the invasion; JCS as the invasion began was predicting Kiev would fall in 72-96 hours, but that's not the same as the country at all. Ukraine is the largest country in Europe and has the largest Army, if you exclude Russia itself; acting like its a failure by Russia to conquer it all in less than two weeks when it took the United States a full month to take Iraq in 2003 is the only thing laughable here.



Did Rusia stumble in the opening days? Without question, but it was not because of a lack of capabilities but because of planning; they made the intentional decision of limiting strikes and withholding key abilities precisely because they wanted to limit civilian and even Ukrainian military losses. This was shown most obviously in the complete lack of targeting of military barracks, for example. Now, however, the gloves are off and its showing how wrong this analysis of "crappy military performance" is:

All but two roads into Kyiv have been cut, with the Ukrainians themselves now admitting the Russians are positioning themselves to complete the encirclement. There is a reason we are seeing a storm of news articles about the Western Powers already turning their focus to insurgency and government in exile.
As part of the above, Sumy and Chernihiv have been encircled with an indeterminate amount of Ukrainian military. Food supplies have already been exhausted in Sumy and the noose is tightening.
Mariupol, with a garrison possibly as strong as 7,000 has been encircled and now the Russians have secured the outer suburbs.
Kharkov appears to be surrounded, and the Russians are pushing fast on Izyum to cut the LOCs into the Donbass. The JTO represents the largest grouping of Ukrainian forces, at somewhere between 45,000 to possibly as high as 75,000 personnel. In the next three to five days, it will either have to retreat in the open under murderous Russian fire or it will be encircled and destroyed. Everything east of the Dnieper will collapse regardless of which occurs, but if it is the former then the Russians now have a free hand to advance on Lviv and take Odessa.

The Russian attack in the Kiev direction has achieved its purpose, it tied large amounts of the Ukrainian Army which has enabled the Russians to achieve their goals elsewhere, namely the establishment of a land bridge to Crimea and set the conditions for the encirclement of the JTO to be completed. Somewhere between 50,000 to 75,000 Ukrainian soldiers are about to be encircled and forced to surrender, that's going to decide the war and it explains why Ukraine is increasingly desperate to get a peace deal while they still have some leverage.

All that NATO training, equipment and volunteers did nothing to prevent this, the Russian way of war is alive and well.

Worth remembering why we can ignore History Learner. "Kyiv is about to fall, and the Russians will encircle all Ukrainian forces in the east." becomes "Kyiv was a feint, and the forces in the east are nearly surrounded!" Pretty sure in a later post I CBF to find he went the same "Russia didn't want to encircle them, they're making it into a grinding match to kill as many Ukrainians as they can!" we heard from other idiots. Mixed with all the other cope. Russia are fighting with one hand behind their back to test themselves, and trying to limit civilian casualties? How well does that hold up 8 months and countless murdered children and mass graves later?

 

[Jormungandr]

Worth remembering why we can ignore History Learner. "Kyiv is about to fall, and the Russians will encircle all Ukrainian forces in the east." becomes "Kyiv was a feint, and the forces in the east are nearly surrounded!" Pretty sure in a later post I CBF to find he went the same "Russia didn't want to encircle them, they're making it into a grinding match to kill as many Ukrainians as they can!" we heard from other idiots. Mixed with all the other cope. Russia are fighting with one hand behind their back to test themselves, and trying to limit civilian casualties? How well does that hold up 8 months and countless murdered children and mass graves later?

Well, if this is Russia "holding one hand behind their back", they're doing a poor job at even that.

I mean, Russia is currently fucking up more than they did in WW1, and that's saying something.

 

[Bacle]

You have to remember that the Russians were so helpless against our attack subs that they pulled their boomers back to near-shore "bastions" where they could protect them with airpower and surface ships, and despite all those very, very competent ASW assets guarding them we still were routinely infiltrating said bastions with our own SSN's to trail their boomer subs. You really think the Russians could sortie that huge boat across the Atlantic and do any better, after the collapse of the Soviet Union put their tech development on hold for 20 years, in a game where you have to run as fast as possible just to keep your place?

lol_lmao_scorpion.png

It's more the issue of the the Status-6s have damn near infinite range, and being only really good as 'fuck you' nuclear vengeance weapons or CVBG killers.

So theoretically, a boomer in one of those bastions could let a Status-6 loose (though last time someone saw it the Belgorod was in the Med moving east towards the Adriatic) and it would still have the range to hit the US. And really, they could shore launch a Status-6 from any naval base or even a hidden base along their coast, not just from a sub.

We can deal with ICBMs/SLBMs fairly competently I feel; Status-6 is a bit more difficult to intercept, once loosed, and it carries a lot more boom than even the new 'heavy weight' Sarmat ICBMs.

 

[Husky_Khan]

First we had the cope cage, now we have the cope can.

Any IR Seeker Striking the Target would Result in a Wet Explosion. It makes sense.

 

[planefag]

Is that why they continued to station second generation SSBNs off the U.S. coast?

Because they literally didn't have the range to hit CONUS from Russian coastal waters until the mid-70s, shitwit.

Is that why we didn't achieve penetration of the bastion areas until the 1990s?

We shouldn't have been able to penetrate them ever, at all. Do you have any idea how hard it is to sneak a submarine through air, surface and sub-surface patrols, right in the enemy's backyard? Lol. Lmao.

Likewise, can we infer from your statements that the U.S. Navy is as lackluster as the Soviets were then, as you allege, given they too are now adopting the Bastion concept:

Computer, zoom and enhance!

Even the United States — keen to defend its forward bases in the Pacific and logistics hubs in Europe — is developing concepts calling for the rapid placement of bastions across the globe.

So America's ability to project so much power that they can establish a home-guard tier defense halfway across the globe means they're... lackluster? Do you have velcro on your fucking shoes?

Given old Chinese diesel submarines have repeatedly embarrassed the U.S. Navy by popping up in the middle of CBGs undetected

For a submarine, surfacing is tantamount to surrendering, as it leaves it essentially helpless. Surfacing is what they do when they have a 688 class pinging them on active hard while surface ships circle them - the message being "you are about to be fucking shot." What no navy would ever do is successfully infiltrate an enemy Carrier Battle Group and then willfully give away the fact that they can do it, which would just cue their enemy in that they need to do exercises with NATO allies and their high-quality AIP-equipped diesel boats and/or develop new sensors/countermeasures. You're swallowing horseshit propaganda painted over a gross embarassment and doing it without blinking, because you're a dipshit who doesn't understand the first thing about literally anything you sperg about.

In a 2019 interview with 60 Minutes, a US Navy admiral said that Russia has a "very capable submarine force," and that increased Russian submarine activity gives him pause.

LOCAL ADMIRAL GOES ON TV AND SAYS CONGRESS SHOULD GIVE THE NAVY MORE MONEY BECAUSE OOOH SCARY RUSSIANS. Wow, no shit? Stunning. Absolutely floored, here.

That was sarcasm, by the way. I feel I should specify, with you.

Key word there being developing, because we haven't been able to get a single system into production and from there into combat. Russia has, and the idea we're just being quiet about it is cope when the Pentagon just recently announced our first successful test.

Guess you missed the Navy testing a boost-glide hypersonic vehicle back in November 2017.

 

[Captain X]

Considering that the USN advertises when and where it's doing it's big exercises, hiding a sub in that path and then surfacing unpowered when they hear the fleet coming isn't really something to brag about.