Trump Investigations Thread

Vyor

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The issue is, I think Trump's probably screwed when it comes to the money. It's going to be hard to overturn that, as it's not necessarily legally wrong, just an abuse of the legal system. It legally doesn't matter at all that no one was harmed by Trump's lying about his net worth, nor does it legally matter that lying about your property values is 100% normal in New York, nor does it legally matter that it was only enforced against Trump. It's morally absurd and wrong, but not legally.
It actually is legally wrong because Trump doesn't pay taxes based on what he tells the banks (nor on what the banks themselves audit).

He pays taxes based on the state's auditing. The state told him to pay the taxes he did, in fact, pay.
 

Terthna

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Actually it does, since your point was that this "doesn't matter" and it very much does matter.

It directly contradicts your point. That's leaving aside the fact that your "point" (meaning the second half where you claim Manhattan property is worthless) is completely retarded and inaccurate to begin with.
...Fine; maybe you should invest in property there then, if you think it's so valuable.
 

Abhorsen

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It actually is legally wrong because Trump doesn't pay taxes based on what he tells the banks (nor on what the banks themselves audit).

He pays taxes based on the state's auditing. The state told him to pay the taxes he did, in fact, pay.
That's what I said. The entire point of my post is that yes, Trump broke the law, but the conviction is still politically motivated BS, but legally sound. You just agreed with me while trying to correct me.
 

Doomsought

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The issue is, I think Trump's probably screwed when it comes to the money. It's going to be hard to overturn that, as it's not necessarily legally wrong, just an abuse of the legal system. It legally doesn't matter at all that no one was harmed by Trump's lying about his net worth, nor does it legally matter that lying about your property values is 100% normal in New York, nor does it legally matter that it was only enforced against Trump. It's morally absurd and wrong, but not legally.
No, it was a pretty blatant violation of due process. Trump was denied the right to a trial. It should be overturned by any honest appellate court.
 

Skallagrim

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That's what I said. The entire point of my post is that yes, Trump broke the law, but the conviction is still politically motivated BS, but legally sound. You just agreed with me while trying to correct me.

The judge literally already declared what the judgement was going to be, before key witnesses were heard. That's not due process, and undeniable evidence of unacceptable bias. Which means that based on the most fundamental of legal principles, this whole thing should be thrown out on appeal.

Furthermore, on that basis, in any half-way decent legal system, Trump should be able to obtain an order to stay the execution of the verdict until his appeal has been handled. (In other words: "going after his assets" should be blocked until the highest qualified court - I assume that would be the Supreme Court -- reaches a final decision.)
 

Abhorsen

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No, it was a pretty blatant violation of due process. Trump was denied the right to a trial. It should be overturned by any honest appellate court.
The judge literally already declared what the judgement was going to be, before key witnesses were heard. That's not due process, and undeniable evidence of unacceptable bias. Which means that based on the most fundamental of legal principles, this whole thing should be thrown out on appeal.
Not how stuff works.

Basically, the Jury is the finder of facts. The Judge is the determiner of law. If key facts are not in dispute, then summary judgement happens, and a jury trial is by-passed in civil cases.

Basically, sometimes everyone agrees X happened, they just question whether X broke the law or what the remedy for X is. That's actually for a judge to decide.

A classic example: say a cop arrested someone for flipping him off. The arrested person then sues the cop for violating the first amendment. Everyone agrees that the cop arrested the man for that reason. They just disagree about it violating the first amendment. A jury is not chosen to determine what the first amendment says or is, the Judge does. In fact, most cases that go to the Supreme Court are like this: they never actually go to trial, but are just questions of law.

Now if there are facts in dispute that are germane to the case, then you'd require a jury, but I don't believer there were here. Trump agreed that he set the value at $X M, pointed out that the banks didn't care, but since $X M was way over priced, he admitted to the crime. Now there is the question of if that number was actually over priced, which is basically is one and only shot at this.


As a side note, the right to a jury trial for civil trials is actually not even established, just civil trials.

Furthermore, on that basis, in any half-way decent legal system, Trump should be able to obtain an order to stay the execution of the verdict until his appeal has been handled. (In other words: "going after his assets" should be blocked until the highest qualified court - I assume that would be the Supreme Court -- reaches a final decision.)
He sorta can. The money is put in an escrow account, not forked over. It's just that it's so much money that it causes issues regardless. Note that NY has the idea that you basically have to put the money into the escrow account prior to any appeal.

Also, NY doesn't have the right to go after assets if Trump pays into the Escrow account in full. It basically blocks them from proceeding.

Note that some of the judgement happening immediatly is very normal though, because appeals processes take basically forever in America. So if someone is convicted of murder, say, we don't want to wait until all of their appeals are done before putting them in jail.

HE DIDN'T BREAK THE LAW

I SAID HE DIDN'T BREAK THE LAW

READ MORE
It actually is legally wrong
Oh, please be a lot more clear with your pronouns then. I treated it as if "it" referred to what Trump did (my assumption), not what I said.
 

Abhorsen

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The facts were in dispute. Trumps entire case was him disputing the facts, and the Judge ignoring him and performing an illegal summary judgement.
Unfortunately most of what was disputed not relevant facts. Trump disputed facts that weren't relevant legally speaking, like that the banks weren't harmed at all. Now, to my mind, this means it shouldn't be a crime, but the laws of NY state take precedence over my opinion.

The one fact that was relevant that was disputed was the actual value of the properties in question. And unfortunately, I'm pretty sure the judge knows how to fuck someone over legally, so I wouldn't be surprised if there's some method of making this an acknowledged fact (i.e. appoint an 'independent analyst' or something).

The compounding issue is that the case is in a state court under state law, and the final authority on state law is the NY SCOTUS equivalent (note, it's not actually the NY Supreme Court, it's actually the NY Court of Appeals, but that's just weird naming). So he won't get a fair trial, nor a fair appeals process in NY State, and he can't actually appeal much of this to SCOTUS because of federalism.

The only chance I think he might have is an appeal of 5th amendment for excessive fines, as that goes to SCOTUS, not the NY Court of Appeals. Hopefully that works.
 

Blasterbot

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Except it was tax fraud.
I don't think it was tax fraud. they were saying he over valued his buildings in his business dealings when using them as collateral for business loans. which is weird because the banks have their own assessors. but the hypothetical would be that if the banks just took his word for it and did not negotiate he would get a more favorable loan. which he always paid back. so the banks kept letting him repeat it. which he used to make many nice buildings in NYC. which they want to take. so they will twist the laws until they can get him.
 

Bacle

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I don't think it was tax fraud. they were saying he over valued his buildings in his business dealings when using them as collateral for business loans. which is weird because the banks have their own assessors. but the hypothetical would be that if the banks just took his word for it and did not negotiate he would get a more favorable loan. which he always paid back. so the banks kept letting him repeat it. which he used to make many nice buildings in NYC. which they want to take. so they will twist the laws until they can get him.
If the banks made the loans, then their own internal assessor would have had to signed off on it, which meant they agreed with Trump offered assessment.

If they didn't agree with Trump's assessment, they could and would have disputed it then via counter-offer or litigation at that time.

This is a judge deciding he knows more about the real estate value and real worth of the loans made and repaid than the banks/lenders and loan taker, when both the loaners and Trump are happy with what happened in those deals.

It's all based on the same shit the DA got elected on 'We Will Get Trump' was their platform, and they are twisting every legal precedent in the nations history to try to get him.

The knock-on effects the precedent of this ruling with have on private property rights/valuations in NY is going to be...seismic and radioactive at the same time. Even if it gets overturned quickly and Trump is re-elected, the damage this ruling with do to the business and economic climate in NY will likely take generations to repair, and it will be used again against the politically disfavored in that jurisdiction unless struck down with judicial prejudice.
 

Bigking321

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Umm... did you read those articles?

They are kind of a copy paste of each other.

They basically say the trucker whose viral video about hearing truckers may strike isn't going to be part of any strike.

Then they talk about two other trucker guys. One who says they haven't heard anything about a strike, and another that said all the truckers not going to New York are because of how terrible the city and its rules are not because of Trump.

It's not much of a story honestly. They found a trucker that hadn't heard anything and a trucker claiming it was happening for different reasons. But they talked to two truckers thus "truckers say 'not happening' ".

Rather clickbaity. And it's Newsweek and... The Hindustan Times?
 
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Cherico

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If the banks made the loans, then their own internal assessor would have had to signed off on it, which meant they agreed with Trump offered assessment.

If they didn't agree with Trump's assessment, they could and would have disputed it then via counter-offer or litigation at that time.

This is a judge deciding he knows more about the real estate value and real worth of the loans made and repaid than the banks/lenders and loan taker, when both the loaners and Trump are happy with what happened in those deals.

It's all based on the same shit the DA got elected on 'We Will Get Trump' was their platform, and they are twisting every legal precedent in the nations history to try to get him.

The knock-on effects the precedent of this ruling with have on private property rights/valuations in NY is going to be...seismic and radioactive at the same time. Even if it gets overturned quickly and Trump is re-elected, the damage this ruling with do to the business and economic climate in NY will likely take generations to repair, and it will be used again against the politically disfavored in that jurisdiction unless struck down with judicial prejudice.

It also sets precidence that can and will be used against them.

because weaponising your legal system is a game that can and will be played by your political enenmies eventually.
 

Abhorsen

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Except it was tax fraud.
If he paid taxes as it was assessed, it wasn't tax fraud. The state is in charge of doing the assessment usually. This is good for him, as tax fraud is a felony, much worse than what he was found liable for.

Also, I wholly support tax fraud. The bigger the better.



Also, the Fani Willis stuff is supposed to happen soon. Monday is going to be potentially pivotal. Basically, this Monday, an in camera (read: private, not viewable by the public) hearing with Terrence Bradley is happening. Previously, most of Terrence Bradley's testimony had been stopped by attorney client privileges. Then the state fucked up, and stabbed their own witness in the back. So that could change everything by itself, we'll see.
 

Vyor

My influence grows!
If he paid taxes as it was assessed, it wasn't tax fraud. The state is in charge of doing the assessment usually. This is good for him, as tax fraud is a felony, much worse than what he was found liable for.

Also, I wholly support tax fraud. The bigger the better.

Yeah, see, they're mixing statutes.

Which they can't do.
 

Abhorsen

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Yeah, see, they're mixing statutes.

Which they can't do.
The state is not mixing statutes. They have a particular rule about fraud, and they are using that rule.

There are ways to attack what the state did. This isn't one of them.
 

Abhorsen

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So the case just got blown wide open it appears. The defense has just made a court filing containing a lot of evidence re:cell phone location data of Nathan Wade. Specifically, a ton of texts, about 2k phone calls, him visiting her house over night (EDIT: being within 2000 feet of her house, stationary, for hours), etc, all prior to his hiring.

Even the Daily Beast is noting that Fani's kinda fucked:
 
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