Trump Investigations Thread

Poe

Well-known member
Yes. The post office, police departments, public libraries, the military, etc. all examples of social programs. It's not full-blown socialism and I'm not saying it is, by the way.
Literally none of those are socialism or socialism lite. Military and police are basic functions of any government and the other two may be "social programs" (they aren't)* but even if that were the case socialism isn't "government doing things" and pretending it is is the reason why leftists are able to say they haven't infiltrated anything and the right just sees communism everywhere.

1. A social program would be paying to teach kids to read books with tax dollars, maintaining economically inviable but useful services isn't a fucking social program.
 
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IndyFront

Well-known member
Literally none of those are socialism or socialism lite. Military and police are basic functions of any government and the other two may be "social programs" (they aren't)* but even if that were the case socialism isn't "government doing things" and pretending it is is the reason why leftists are able to say they haven't infiltrated anything and the right just sees communism everywhere.

1. A social program would be paying to teach kids to read books with tax dollars, maintaining economically inviable but useful services isn't a fucking social program.
Get as triggered as you want but they are literally social programs lmao. Those may have been bad examples but social programs have literally always been and will always be a thing:
 

Poe

Well-known member
Get as triggered as you want but they are literally social programs lmao. Those may have been bad examples but social programs have literally always been and will always be a thing:
Your link says otherwise and agrees with my definition
Social program means a program implemented with board approval to provide assistance to a group of disadvantaged customers
How are libraries and postal services "a program with board approval to provide assistance to the disadvantaged?" To repeat exactly what I said above, they aren't. They are services for /everyone/ and this is exactly why they aren't social programs. Even if they were, and again it can't be stated enough they aren't, social programs aren't socialism that isn't what that word implies. Socialism is about redistribution (normally of wealth but nowadays access to education etc is included) from one group to another, not about providing services to people.

It really seems like you're mixing up socialism and statism. It's a valid position to be anti-statist, but that's a different thing to being anti-socialist.
 
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S'task

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Teddy "Progressive Party" Roosevelt was on the right?
Dude was virulently anti-birth control and abortion and loved guns, and strongly believed in the ability of people to "lift themselves up by their own bootstraps".

He may have supported more social programs than the average modern Republican, but he was defiantly more center-right than anywhere near the left.

I want Federal gun control that limits what people can have and enforce robust background checks and red flag laws while also still allowing people to obtain guns and keep them for defense. Liberals see that as being a gun nut, conservatives see that as me trying their guns.
And what exactly are those limits on what people can have?

Also, while I understand the desire for Red Flag laws, please explain to me how Red Flag laws aren't a violation of the Due Process clause, because for the removal of ALL OTHER RIGHTS people have to go through a complete criminal trial and appeal with full legal representation and a jury of their peers. Not an anonymous report to the police that's brought before a single judge to sign off on with no legal representation.

I also believe that government services such as medicaire and tuition-free college are not that unreasonable an ask (we already have police departments and fire departments for example, which is a form of socialism-lite).
Firstly, both police departments and fire departments, as well as libraries, are all run by local and/or state governments. The Federal government literally has jack shit to do with them. If a State wants to set up tuition free college, you're not actually going to find really strong objections on the right from an ideological perspective, just from a "that's probably not a good idea perspective, look at how well so-called 'free' public schools are doing".
 

DarthOne

☦️
DC Judge Chutkan refuses to allow Trump attorneys to gain access to 'missing materials' they say were hidden by J6 Committee


"Defendant does not state with any specificity the information that he seeks in those records," Chutkan said.

In a Monday court order, Judge Tanya Chutkan of the US District Court for the District of Columbia denied a motion from Donald Trump's team to subpoena records they said were missing from the archived records of the January 6 Select Committee. These are records that were reportedly not turned over after the investigation was complete.

Trump's team, in an October 11 filing, requested permission to issue subpoenas to the Archivist of the United States at the National Archives and Records Administration, the Clerk of the House of Representatives, the Committee on House Administration, Special Counsel to the President Richard Sauber, General Counsel of the Department of Homeland Security Johnathan Meyer, Representative Barry Loudermilk, and Representative Bennie Thompson.

"According to a letter from Representative Barry Loudermilk, Chair of the Subcommittee on Oversight, however, the Select Committee did not transfer or archive numerous records (collectively the 'Missing Records')," the October filing states.

The October filing cites video recordings of transcribed interviews and depositions that had been featured in the Select Committee's hearings that were not archived or transferred to the Committee on House Administration.

In her Monday filing, Chutkan wrote that "The subpoenas would require federal government officials to produce records related to the House Select Committee to Investigate the January 6th Attack on the United States Capitol."

The judge said that such pretrial subpoenas must clear three hurdles: relevancy, admissibility, and specificity. Chutkan said that Trump's team has not met this, saying that "He has not sufficiently justified his requests for either the 'Missing Materials' themselves or the other five categories of documents related to them."

Chutkan said that the defense "likewise fails to meet his burden for the remaining five categories of records that he seeks," with these categories including records regarding methods on the archiving or destruction of Select Committee Missing Materials, communications with the Department of Justice or other law enforcement agencies related to the missing materials, and other documents or records pertaining to the missing materials.

"Defendant does not state with any specificity the information that he seeks in those records, repeating only that it is important and related to the events and people associated with the Select Committee's work and therefore the January 6, 2021 attack."

Trump's team argued in their filing, "President Trump is fully entitled to seek the Missing Records by subpoena. It is also equally important to determine if these records have been lost, destroyed, or altered. The Requested Subpoenas are narrowly tailored to achieve these legitimate ends, which are fundamental to ensuring President Trump's right to a fair trial under the Fifth and Sixth Amendments."

They said that at the end of its existence, the January 6 committee was said to have "loan[ed]" crucial documents to "the White House Special Counsel and the Department of Homeland Security." These documents included "important intelligence and other law enforcement information, records identifying witnesses, and other information the Select Committee deemed sensitive pursuant to agreements with the White House and DHS."

"In truth, this was no 'loan' and the Select Committee's failure to archive the materials was intentional—Representative Thompson provided the materials to the White House and DHS on Friday, December 30, 2022, knowing full well the Select Committee would dissolve the very next business day."

The Biden administration did not return these documents prior to the end of the committee "as planned," the defense wrote, and as a result of this the January 6 committee "did not properly archive that material with the rest of its records."
 

evilchumlee

Well-known member
DC Judge Chutkan refuses to allow Trump attorneys to gain access to 'missing materials' they say were hidden by J6 Committee

The judge said that such pretrial subpoenas must clear three hurdles: relevancy, admissibility, and specificity. Chutkan said that Trump's team has not met this, saying that "He has not sufficiently justified his requests for either the 'Missing Materials' themselves or the other five categories of documents related to them."

Chutkan said that the defense "likewise fails to meet his burden for the remaining five categories of records that he seeks," with these categories including records regarding methods on the archiving or destruction of Select Committee Missing Materials, communications with the Department of Justice or other law enforcement agencies related to the missing materials, and other documents or records pertaining to the missing materials.

"Defendant does not state with any specificity the information that he seeks in those records, repeating only that it is important and related to the events and people associated with the Select Committee's work and therefore the January 6, 2021 attack."

It's a good headline for outrage, but reading the article... it makes perfect sense. It's really quite Trumpian.

Trump: I want these materials.
Judge: Why?
Trump: Because they're important.
Judge: How?
Trump: Because they're important.
Judge: What's important about them?
Trump: The importance.
Judge: But what are you looking for?
Trump: IMPORTANT THINGS.
 

Vyor

My influence grows!
It's a good headline for outrage, but reading the article... it makes perfect sense. It's really quite Trumpian.

Trump: I want these materials.
Judge: Why?
Trump: Because they're important.
Judge: How?
Trump: Because they're important.
Judge: What's important about them?
Trump: The importance.
Judge: But what are you looking for?
Trump: IMPORTANT THINGS.
That... is how discovery works though?

You can't claim that something isn't important because there may well be exculpatory (or incriminatory) material in it.

Saying "It might be relevant to my case" is usually a pretty good way of getting discovery materials.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
That... is how discovery works though?

You can't claim that something isn't important because there may well be exculpatory (or incriminatory) material in it.

Saying "It might be relevant to my case" is usually a pretty good way of getting discovery materials.
"It might be relevant to my case" does not work when you can't explain how or why it is relevant.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Except that's the very point of discovery. To see the same evidence that the Prosecution has access to because it may prove pertinent.
And then there's the other side of discovery: the defense can't withold anything pertinent during a civil trial.

That criminal and civil trials are concurrent does muddy things.
 

Abhorsen

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That... is how discovery works though?

You can't claim that something isn't important because there may well be exculpatory (or incriminatory) material in it.

Saying "It might be relevant to my case" is usually a pretty good way of getting discovery materials.
Generally you have to say why it's important, is the issue. It's done to avoid abusing the discovery process (which can very much be abused). You basically need to demonstrate some sort of reason why what's there would help your case, not just say it would. IDK if Trump did that here, just pointing out it's more complicated than that.
And then there's the other side of discovery: the defense can't withold anything pertinent during a civil trial.
That's literally not how that happens at all. First, for a civil trial neither side needs to tell the other side anything unless asked (though you will be asked a generic 'provide anything relevant') or they intend to use it. For a criminal trial, only the Prosecutor needs to tell the defense stuff (and they need to tell practically everything), not the other way around.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
Generally you have to say why it's important, is the issue. It's done to avoid abusing the discovery process (which can very much be abused). You basically need to demonstrate some sort of reason why what's there would help your case, not just say it would. IDK if Trump did that here, just pointing out it's more complicated than that.

That's literally not how that happens at all. First, for a civil trial neither side needs to tell the other side anything unless asked (though you will be asked a generic 'provide anything relevant') or they intend to use it. For a criminal trial, only the Prosecutor needs to tell the defense stuff (and they need to tell practically everything), not the other way around.
Did you miss the "pertinent" part about what I said?

Before you argue with me about semantics "pertinent" and "relevant" are synonyms.
 
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Abhorsen

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Did you miss the "pertinent" part about what I said?
It doesn't matter if it's pertinent or not. Did you miss what you said?
And then there's the other side of discovery: the defense can't withold anything pertinent during a civil trial.
They literally can withhold everything, pertinent or not, if the other side doesn't ask for it. This applies for the defense and plaintiff.
 

bintananth

behind a desk
They literally can withhold everything, pertinent or not, if the other side doesn't ask for it. This applies for the defense and plaintiff.
That is true. The other side doesn't have to provide it. However, our legal system is one where both sides are supposed to get all of the evidence. Whitholding pertinent evidience is a felony called Obstruction of Justice. Asking for impertinent things will likely piss off a Judge and result in a lawyer getting santioned or disbarred.
 

Blasterbot

Well-known member
That is true. The other side doesn't have to provide it. However, our legal system is one where both sides are supposed to get all of the evidence. Whitholding pertinent evidience is a felony called Obstruction of Justice. Asking for impertinent things will likely piss off a Judge and result in a lawyer getting santioned or disbarred.
that would be a great way for the judge to instill more doubt about the legitamacy of NYC courts. going after the bad orange man's lawyers for doing their jobs. 10/10 strategy for getting The Don reelected.
 

Abhorsen

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That is true. The other side doesn't have to provide it. However, our legal system is one where both sides are supposed to get all of the evidence. Whitholding pertinent evidience is a felony called Obstruction of Justice. Asking for impertinent things will likely piss off a Judge and result in a lawyer getting santioned or disbarred.
Again, this is wrong. You are only obligated to provide evidence that was asked for. There is no requirement to volunteer pertinent info, and no law broken. The one exception is that the defense in a criminal trial is given, without asking, basically all info from the prosecution.

In fact, the sides don't even get to decide what is pertinent. The Judge does, and then orders one side to give that to the other side. There is no volunteering.

And asking for impertinent things is pretty much standard as well, with the judge slapping it down, when it comes to big cases.
 

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