Trump Investigations Thread

Poe

Well-known member
Trump COULD have declassified them. He didn't. Trump COULD have passed an executive order repealing the whole damn thing. He didn't.
Executive orders are not legislation dude, they are orders from the president. Trump was the president when he took the documents, therefore it's at his discretion *HOW* declassification even works. This is like saying Biden breaks the law when he goes against one of Trumps executive orders.
 
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edgeworthy

Well-known member
There are three key points that are pertinent here.

  1. Yes, a sitting President can declassify documents. (But only when in office)
  2. However, another President can by the same authority reclassify documents.
  3. There are some things that by law no President can declassify.
The third one is kind of important. Some matters, such as anything related to the production or use of Nuclear Weapons, and Nuclear Power, a President cannot unilaterally declassify. (No memo or statement can change that)
 

Blasterbot

Well-known member
There are three key points that are pertinent here.

  1. Yes, a sitting President can declassify documents. (But only when in office)
  2. However, another President can by the same authority reclassify documents.
  3. There are some things that by law no President can declassify.
The third one is kind of important. Some matters, such as anything related to the production or use of Nuclear Weapons, and Nuclear Power, a President cannot unilaterally declassify. (No memo or statement can change that)
so you are arguing that Biden reclassified the documents that Trump took with him so that he would get kicked off of ballots? damn that is devious.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
Upon what authority is this based? If legislation, I'd be curious how well that would hold up if pressed since that gets into separation of powers territory.
Honestly no clue.
Just going off what I jave heard.
The president can see everything though
 

evilchumlee

Well-known member
Honestly no clue.
Just going off what I jave heard.
The president can see everything though

Found some things.

Article about declassification in power by the American Bar Association
https://www.americanbar.org/news/ab...es/2022/10/fact-check-presidential-authority/

I was trying to read through the Atomic Energy Act but it's... alot.

From what I have gathered, anything Classified under "RD" or "FRD" can not be summarily declassified by the President alone, it must go through the Department of Energy. This is generally regarded as Constitutional, as the declassification powers are derived from Article II in regards to national defense... but Congress ALSO shares power in national defense.

(I'm no longer talking anything political, i'm strictly interested in the letter of the laws here, this isn't trying to prove or disprove anything)

The issue is that... the powers have never been tested in court. This may be changing.

Under Article II, if we go by the letter of the law in the Constitution, some are arguing that a President only has the power to declassify records if in his judgment, it will not cause any harm to national security, or the harm it might cause is outweighed by public benefit. If the President were to declassify documents for any other reason... some examples given were so at as to make it more convenient to work with the documents at a different location or some such, the declassification would not be legal under Article II. It does make some sense, and it's interesting.

Another interesting aspect here is that one of the charges... the most serious one... is the alleged breach of the Espionage Act. In the case of that count, the classification of the information is not actually relevant. The Espionage Act doesn't say anything about classified information, it criminalizes mishandling of information "relating to national defense".

I think that one of the core questions as it pertains to the Espionage Act charge is that even in Trump had decided to just declassify the information and not tell anyone and not go through any normal channel to do so, bypassing any review by relevant agencies to ensure that there was no information contained with that related to national defense... that may be enough to be considered guilty of breaking the Espionage Act. Generally yes, it makes it EASIER and more obvious to go after someone for the Espionage Act if the information they mishandled is classified. It is not a requirement.

It seems that there is a process that is usually followed for a reason. A President who declassifies information that could harm national defense without allowing for any review of the materials beforehand... may well be in violation of the Espionage Act, and the reason behind the declassification may be important to the legality of the declassification in and of itself.

If a President has a potentially damaging bit of information he wants to declassify, following a procedure of allowing it go through review to make sure everything is good, "covers his ass" so to speak. It's hard to come back and accuse wrongdoing if there's a clear process that it had gone through with relevant agencies giving the green light.

In the matter of anything relating to nuclear energy or weapons... it seems that without approval from the Department of Energy, the President does not have the authority to declassify. I'm interested to see that tested in court, regardless of the outcome.

The one thing I will say specifically in regards to Trump is that from several things I have read, I think it's clear that Trump really didn't know all of the rules or exactly what authority he did and did not have. I don't think that's uncommon... I don't think anyone actually knows for sure. The criticism is that most Presidents seem to acknowledge this to some extent, so they make sure they have advisors and follow processes to make sure what they're doing is legal and within their authority. That's not Trump's style... I can respect that to a degree, but it's also an easy way to get in trouble. Where most Presidents might thing "I don't know if I can do this or not... let me check.", Trump tends to go "I don't know if I can do this or not, so i'm just going to do it.". Or you have Nixon who's basically just "I don't care if I can do this. I'm doing it. Fuck 'em."
 

Bacle

When the effort is no longer profitable...
Founder
The Dept of Energy should not have the power to overrule the Chief Executive on anything.

If this is what they are trying to fuck Trump with, then it is time to take the Dept of Energy to SCOTUS for breaches of separation of powers and attempting military control over the civilian leadership.
 

evilchumlee

Well-known member
The Dept of Energy should not have the power to overrule the Chief Executive on anything.

If this is what they are trying to fuck Trump with, then it is time to take the Dept of Energy to SCOTUS for breaches of separation of powers and attempting military control over the civilian leadership.

...but... the Department of Energy isn't the military. It's a part of the civilian leadership.

This is only one part of it. There are... alot of things.

The largest charge Trump is facing is the Espionage Act, which the classification of the documents is not particularly relevant.

I don't think it's unreasonable to challenge the Atomic Energy Act.

However, in light of all of this controversy, I would also like to see a suit/legislation come up to formalize a process for Presidential declassification and take the whole "did it happen?" aspect completely off the table for any issue in the future. The President should still have declassification powers, but there really needs to be documentation that it occurred, removing any doubt. I don't think that we can rely on Trump's idea of "If I thought about it, I declassified it". There really needs to be SOME kind of official, binding process. Doesn't even need to be that strict, and I do think that while sitting as POTUS, if the President shares the information, it's declassified. It just doesn't/shouldn't work retroactively.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
I think it shouldn't have the power to overrule but at the same time the president able to basically tell the world how we build and operate our nukes and reactors would be massive issue
 

Poe

Well-known member
The Dept of Energy should not have the power to overrule the Chief Executive on anything.

If this is what they are trying to fuck Trump with, then it is time to take the Dept of Energy to SCOTUS for breaches of separation of powers and attempting military control over the civilian leadership.
This is what I've been trying to say lol. All of this "precedent" is based around executive authority and Trump was the executive. It's definitely going to the supreme court and I'd be very surprised if this court didn't toss it out and reaffirm everything we've said here. Of course the left is counting on this, so they can use it as further proof of "corruption" and continue their attack on the court.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
I can see a reason why Nuclear stuff can be considered undeclassifiable.

Because of how important they are.to literal national defense and world ending capabilities
 

Poe

Well-known member
I can see a reason why Nuclear stuff can be considered undeclassifiable.

Because of how important they are.to literal national defense and world ending capabilities
I don't disagree here on the why, but the question remains on whose authority is the president restricted. The executive can't restrict the president because the president *is* the executive. The legislative doing so sparks a constitutional crisis if pressed, as the president can argue this is a breach of separation of powers.

So far the answer seems to be "precedent" with those precedents being executive orders or agencies.
 

Zachowon

The Army Life for me! The POG life for me!
Founder
I don't disagree here on the why, but the question remains on whose authority is the president restricted. The executive can't restrict the president because the president *is* the executive. The legislative doing so sparks a constitutional crisis if pressed, as the president can argue this is a breach of separation of powers.

So far the answer seems to be "precedent" with those precedents being executive orders or agencies.
It would probably be both the judicial and legislative.
Proper checks and balances to ensure such a powerful thing is kept from getting out
 

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