LordsFire
Internet Wizard
Okay, so show us these witness accounts.
Trump Investigations Thread
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evilchumlee
Well-known member
https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/18/poli...se-patently-false-former-officials/index.html
The two most relevant ones are Mick Mulvaney and John Kelly.
(I know, I know, wah wah MSM)
Regardless, even without the accounts. Let's just assume they aren't real. That's fine.
Here are the facts:
The documents in Trumps possession were definitely, verifiably classified.
Trump claimed to have declassified them, which he claimed after he was no longer POTUS.
There is no verifiable evidence that they were ever declassified.
Therefore, those documents were classified. There is evidence that they were classified. There is no evidence they were declassified. All of the evidence shows that Trump was in possession of classified documents. The prosecution has already provided the proof that the documents were classified, to the point that the fact that were classified was never even contested.
Trump's defense is that he declassified them before he left office. There is no proof of this.
Given our justice system operates on proof, the prosecution has provided proof that the documents were classified. The defense has provided no proof in their defense.
It's pretty clear cut.
Poe
Well-known member
Did you not disregard someone else's source, due to it's bias, a few days ago? Then unironically post CNN? You have got to be trolling at this point.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
The "source" was "Trump said it".
That's what I disregarded.
But, for the hell of it...
Ex-White House chief of staff said Trump stashed records at Mar-a-Lago because 'he didn't believe in the classification system'
Trump Declassification Rationale 'Idiotic,' 'Chaos Inducing': Ex-FBI Agent
Pence Undercuts Trump’s Defense in Classified Documents Case
(Pence "wasn't aware")
There's a few more, but regardless of that's even true or not... it doesn't actually matter. The facts are clear enough without them.
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LordsFire
Internet Wizard
What's pretty clear-cut is the bias in your source.
The article you link shows exactly the sort of 'this favors my bias' thinking needed to reach this conclusion; someone who is on staff from 2017 to 2019, has no authority to say what was standing policy in Trump's White House in 2020.
Especially since the most logical time for such an order to be given, would be during the process of moving out of the White House, and deciding what documents would and would not be taken.
The very fact that the article tries to use what was or was not policy in 2017, 2018, or 2019, as definitive proof over what Trump did or did not make standing policy during the time period it actually matters, demonstrates that the people writing that article were not looking for proof, but for justification for the conclusions they want to be true.
The specific examples given are all people who no longer worked at the White House during the transition period.
If the article were interested in pursuing actual evidence and truth, they would be structuring it something along the lines of 'During the transition period, while Trump and his people were moving out of the White House, X person we talked to was part of the move-out work, and here's what they said...'
Instead, it's people who were not in a position to know what was or was not standing policy at that time, and further, are explicitly part of groups antagonistic to Trump, meaning they have a clear incentive to put spin on situations.
On top of that, there's this quote:
"Even if Trump had sought to broadly declassify documents, there is a specific process that the president is supposed to follow, the officials said. Declassification must be memorialized and includes careful reviews and notifying agencies such as the CIA, NSA, Department of Energy, State Department and Defense Department."
This is clear spin. This is trying to bureaucratize the power of the presidency, and act like the authority rests with the CIA, NAS, etc, in 'review,' rather than the President having the authority to do with the vested powers of the office as he pleases, then as good practice, notify the various agencies of what he has done.
Bluntly put, the article is chock full of trying to use all kinds of things that look like, but are not actually evidence or witness accounts that are actually pertinent to the case.
So, you have not only not provided evidence to support the claim they were not declassified, you have actually provided evidence of people acting in bad faith to try to push the idea there was no declassification, when they have no relevant evidence at all.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
That's fine. We can disregard those accounts.
It's still clear cut. Evidence doesn't need to be provided that they weren't declassified. That's nonsense and makes no sense.
They were classified. Nobody is contesting that fact. We know 100% as a fact that were classified.
We don't have any evidence that they were declassified.
The onus on the proof in this situation is on Trump's defense. The prosecution can show through verifiable evidence that the documents were classified. There has been no evidence presented other than the accused saying so that they were declassified.
The prosecution can clearly prove that Trump was in possession of classified documents. The documentation exists. It's not even up for debate.
The evidence is clear.
EDIT -
I don't know to spell it out any more clearly, because we seem to lack understanding of how burden of proof works.
The accusation was that Trump was in possession of classified documents.
The prosecution can provide evidence that the documents were classified.
Facts.
Trump's defense is that he declassified them. There is no evidence.
I'm not really sure where the breakdown of understanding here is. The prosecution doesn't have to prove that Trump did not declassify them... they can't possibly prove something that never happened...
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
And here, you are switching into 'Guilty until proven innocent.'
As President, Trump had total authority on not only what was and was not classified, but by what means he could declassify them.
A verbal order is literally all that is necessary, because he was the President, and he had that power.
So yes, the documents were, at one point, classified.
Trump says 'I had the authority to declassify them, and I did so.'
As he did have that authority, the burden of proof does exist on the prosecution to prove that he did not.
I am sympathetic to the argument that he couldn't just decide it in his head, he would need to make an actual declaration or write an order. That's not unreasonable.
But given that your attempt to provide 'proof' was literally citing people who would not have been in a position to know if either a verbal or written order existed, that suggest that there is no such proof that he did not give that order.
If that wasn't the case, why aren't you citing sources who would have been in a place to know, rather than those who would not?
strunkenwhite
Well-known member
This would have been so easy to clear up if only Trump had taken that memo home along with all the stuff he declassified with said memo. I wonder why he didn't?
Blasterbot
Well-known member
because the president can declassify things without a memo and the closest thing to a prosecution this had was good ol Bill Clinton keeping some classified documents in his sock drawer after he left office. strangely he did not get the book thrown at him like this. it is a mystery as to why. nobody is going to be able to figure out this question of the ages.
not kidding here. this is really shaky ground for prosecution. we have never convicted a president for this in the past. if we start? that is gonna be wild when it comes to how easily the legislature will be able to tie up constitutional powers away from the president. Congress could maybe sign a law that outlines a 7000 step process for a presidential pardon. wouldn't even need an amendment if we take how they are reading the law.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
Not at all. You're ignoring the facts of the case.
The documents were classified.
Trump was in possession of them.
Those are the facts.
Trump claims he declassified them, which would clear him. However, there is no evidence that this occurred, thus the FACTS remain that the documents were classified and he was in possession of them.
It is not up to the prosecution to prove that Trump did... not do something? It's literally impossible to prove a negative.
The prosecution needs to prove he DID a thing, which was be in possession of classified documents. Which they have.
If Trump claims he declassified them, which he had authority to do, that's ok... but he needs to provide evidence for his defense. Courts don't work by simply just saying something, and then taking it as fact, otherwise every trial would end at "Not Guilty".
Prove it. Prove that happened.
Wrong. Just think about that logically.
The prosecution has to prove the facts of their case. They did. They do NOT have to prove the facts of the defendants case. That's an absolutely bonkers idea. The defendants have to provide evidence of their defense. Just saying "I did that, prove I didn't" doesn't even make sense.
Let's just disregard the links I posted. That's fine. The case doesn't need them.
The fact is, and I really don't feel the need to keep repeating it after this... the prosecution does not need to prove the defenses defense for them. I can't believe I actually had to type that sentence.
It's actually a very simple answer.
Bill Clinton and Joe Biden were both in possession of classified documents. And when requested to give them back... they did.
All Trump had to do was not be... Trump for like 5 minutes and just say "oh yeah, sorry you can have those back" and this literally wouldn't have even been news worthy. It's an incredibly common thing to happen. What's not common is refusing to give them back, and then claim they were all declassified.
On a side note... I am somewhat curious... if all of these documents have been declassified, have they been released to the public? Can we read them?
Declassification does not mean dissemination.
regulation wise, if they are declassified, a FOIA request should be able to get them. Since the case is in dispute though...
Vyor
My influence grows!
If the state department says so anyway.
LordsFire
Internet Wizard
And here you are, again, showing that you have no idea what actually happened.
The Fed, I believe specifically the National Archives, contacted Trump about what he had at Mar-o-Lago, and they were invited in to have a look. They looked over what he had, and the place he was storing them, and asked him to put a lock on the door. He did.
Then abruptly, there was a massive raid on the estate while Trump was away, where the feds stormed in and seized a bunch of stuff.
There was no 'you were asked to hand X over, a court backed our order, court process was resolved, you still refused, so we went in and took them, and now you're on charges.'
The whole thing was blatantly a political operation designed to damage his next run for president from the start.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
They're also still classified... so...
A timeline of events leading to Donald Trump's indictment in the classified documents case
Or we can go by the timeline of the indictment:
Jan. 20, 2021: As Trump leaves the White House, he directs the movement of dozens of storage boxes to Mar-a-Lago, prosecutors say. The boxes, packed by Trump and his White House staff, contain newspaper clippings, letters, photos and other mementos from his time in office, but also hundreds of classified documents that, as a former president, he wasn't authorized to have.
After Jan. 20, 2021: Some boxes brought from the White House are stored on a stage in one of Mar-a-Lago's gilded ballrooms. A photo in the indictment shows boxes stacked on a stage.
March 15, 2021: Boxes are moved from the ballroom to the business center at Mar-a-Lago.
April 2021: Some boxes are moved into a bathroom and shower. A photo included in the indictment shows them stacked next to a toilet, a vanity and a trash can.
May 2021: Trump directs employees to clean out a storage room in a highly accessible area on Mar-a-Lago's ground floor so it can be used to store his boxes, the indictment says. Trump also directs that some boxes be brought to his Bedminster, New Jersey, summer residence.
On or about May 6, 2021: Realizing that some documents from Trump's presidency may be missing, the National Archives asks that he turn over any presidential records he may have kept upon leaving the White House. The agency makes subsequent, repeated demands.
June 2021: The National Archives warns Trump through his representatives that it will refer the matter to the Justice Department if he does not comply.
June 24, 2021: Boxes are moved to the storage room. More than 80 boxes are kept there.
July 21, 2021: Trump allegedly shows a military "plan of attack" that he says is "highly confidential" to a writer interviewing him at his Bedminster property. Trump remarks, "as president I could have declassified it. ... Now I can't, you know, but this is still a secret," according to the indictment, citing a recording of the interview.
August or September 2021: Trump allegedly shows a classified map relating to a foreign military operation to a representative of his political action committee at his Bedminster golf course, the indictment says. Trump tells the person that he shouldn't be showing anyone the map and that the person shouldn't get too close.
November 2021: Trump directs his executive assistant and "body man" Walt Nauta and another employee to start moving boxes from a storage room to his residence for him to review. Nauta is charged in the indictment as Trump's co-conspirator.
Dec. 7, 2021: Nauta finds that several of Trump's boxes have fallen, spilling papers onto the storage room floor, the indictment says. Among them is a document with a "SECRET" intelligence marking. According to the indictment, Nauta texts another Trump employee, "I opened the door and found this," to which the other employee replies, "Oh no oh no."
Late December 2021: The National Archives continues to demand that Trump turn over missing records from his presidency. In late December 2021, a Trump representative tells the agency that 12 boxes of records have been found and are ready to be retrieved.
January 17, 2022: Trump turns over 15 boxes to the National Archives. According to the indictment, Nauta and another Trump employee load them into Nauta's car and take them to a commercial truck for delivery to the agency.
(Bolded by favorite parts)
I was actually unaware that they have a recording of Trump quite plainly saying he didn't declassify them, which is actually sort of hilarious and sad at the same time.
What is your source for "they asked and he put a lock on it"?
Poe
Well-known member
No you're not getting the simplicity of all of this. Did he break in to the white house after he was president and steal these documents, or did the sitting president take them with him? If the latter (which is the case) the implication is he declassified them, period.
Sounds to me like he was president when he moved these documents
evilchumlee
Well-known member
That is the most utterly nonsense thing that has been said in this entire thread, and there has been alot of nonsense.
There is absolutely no mechanism, precedent, or otherwise that suggests a President taking documents "implies" declassification. That is just flat out, objectively incorrect.
Poe
Well-known member
No it isn't, that's the point. A totally normal aspect of our politics is now being treated as some crime for partisan reasons, up until last year this was not considered "nonsense" and it was widely known all presidents do this. Even Biden has done the exact same as vice president. The entire process for classifying/declassifying as it exists today was set by an executive order, which if you're not aware is a presidential decree. The president sets this process and dude was president at the time, simple as.
evilchumlee
Well-known member
Basic Laws and Authorities
I am aware of the process.
Once again, this is all over if you simply show me when Trump declassified the documents. That's it. The whole entire thing is over. Just provide the proof that they were declassified.
Trump COULD have declassified them. He didn't. Trump COULD have passed an executive order repealing the whole damn thing. He didn't.
It doesn't matter what Trump COULD have done, it mattered what he did. And there is precisely zero evidence that these documents were declassified.
Biden gave them back when requested. Trump did not. It's all in the indictment. A simple "Whoops, sorry here you go." and this isn't news.
Hillary Clinton, her destroyed harddrives, and her bleached bits would like a word.
Alright as someone who works woth classified material I can tell you this.
He has sole power when he was president to declassify any and all documents.
Now, does he have to outright say I declassify these?
No, he when he was president could grab something and show it to.spmeone and that declassified it.
All one has to do when something gets declassified is to put in a FOIA.
Has anyone tried that with these documents?
He has sole power when he was president to declassify any and all documents.
Now, does he have to outright say I declassify these?
No, he when he was president could grab something and show it to.spmeone and that declassified it.
All one has to do when something gets declassified is to put in a FOIA.
Has anyone tried that with these documents?