Trump Investigations Thread

[49ersfootball]

It isn't like the DOJ has any legitimacy anyway, my hope isn't just for jury nullification and more that accelerationism and revenge/attaintment-based social and political maneuvering become normalized discourse and national policy amongst the Republican base.

What should come out of this is a world where anyone who works for Federal Law Enforcement or as a member of the professional class vaguely friendly with the Federal Government could face abandonment, ostracization, and isolation from their neighbors and relentless lawsuits for something as minor as sneezing in public.

The idea should be to make the people who think they know better than us and have a right to rule us not serve us wake up every day with crushing depression, anxiety and despair and to hear people call them a traitor to their faces at least ten times a day.

There are several classes of people who have usurped our Republic and those people should be made to hate themselves.

In the meantime OK Governor Kevin Stitt (R) endorsing FL Governor Ron DeSantis (R) during campaign rally in Tulsa, OK over the weekend.

 

[Airedale260]

The Espionage Act itself, at least the bit related to national defense information, has serious first amendment issues. Which is why it is basically never the basis for actual charges related to said national defense information.

The charges are usually all under the various classification related laws and regulations. Which the courts have all held have no First Amendment issues because the individual explicitly waves them and agrees to be bound by the rules relating to classified information.

If you have never held a US clearance and find TS/SCI documents and publish them to the world, or even sell them to a foreign entity, then you can not be charged with violating any of the laws related to the handling of classified information (they don't apply to you) and Espionage Act charges have basically never succeeded in such a case.

So if Trump didn't receive a clearance before he became President and didn't sign the appropriate forms (binding him to the rules for handling classified information) then he can not be charged with any crimes related to handling classified information and whether or not he declassified them is entirely immaterial.

The Espionage Act just talks about "national defense information", which can apply to declassified or non-classified information. So again, if Trump declassified (even if he did so under valid procedures and there was no dispute of the declassification) the documents that still wouldn't absolve him from liability under the Espionage Act.

Basically the questions are as follows:
1) Did Trump ever agree to be bound by the rules relating to classified information? As President he was outside of the classification system and had access to any and all classified information even if he had no formal clearance. He may have gotten a formal clearance when he was President Elect and, at the time, agreed to be bound to the rules but he also might not have (no idea).

If the answer is No, if the DOJ can't produce the piece of paper with Trump's signature agreeing to be bound by the classification rules, then any and all charges related to mishandling classified documents are out the window.

2) If Trump did agree to be bound by the classification rules then the question becomes: Did he declassify the documents in question? This is a complex legal question that would end up at the Supreme Court because an EO can not and does not bind the President himself and the President has the absolute, legal, authority to declassify documents if he so chooses. The law does not set out a specific formal process that the President must go through to declassify something, that is handled by executive branch fiat based on an Executive Order from the President. So charging Trump under the classification laws is a big legal can of worms and would make a prosecution incredibly complex and difficult.

3) The Espionage Act exists independent of the classification system. Any violation of the various classification laws would also be a violation of the Espionage Act but a violation of the Espionage Act can exist regardless of any classification issues. The EA also doesn't have provision for the President to declare something to not be "national defense information". So if you can't charge under the classification laws because the individual hasn't agreed to be bound by them then you only option is the Espionage Act.

4) The Espionage Act, in regards to "national defense information", is constitutionally dubious and the courts really don't look on it with any favor. That is largely the reason that the legal basis for the classification system is the way it is. This is also going to be a legal fight but it is one that is (relatively) cleaner and easier than the fight over declassification.

5) The obstruction of justice charges exist independent of the Espionage Act charges and the classification status of the files in question. Personally, I wouldn't have brought the EA charges at all and just gone for the obstruction of justice offenses because those are a LOT stronger legally speaking and on a LOT stronger legal ground.


Sure. And it is going to be re-litigated again when the DOJ attempts to introduce the evidence into the trial.

Trump will move to exclude the evidence on the grounds that it violates attorney client privilege. DOJ will claim that privilege doesn't apply because of the exception. The Judge will rule, the loser will appeal, the appeals court will decide. IIRC the initial testimony was in the DC circuit while this case will be in Florida, so that's also in play.

The Espionage Act (at least the part concerning Trump) covers willful retention of national defense information among other things. Broadly speaking, I understand your argument, but it mainly comes down to it being national defense information that Trump retained tdespite repeated efforts by the government to get the documents back prior to even the grand jury subpoena (the back and forth with NARA), plus the fact that Trump was busy scheming to avoid complying with it even after the subpoena was received.

Had he just handed over the documents like he was asked, it wouldn’t have been an issue (well, maybe DOJ would have still pursued it, but in light of the past misbehavior by Clinton, plus the fact that both Biden and Pence were also found to have had stuff) would have made it very obviously a partisan witch hunt, and would have been a lot harder to prove the EA violations.

As far as the privilege claims go, I don’t see another appeal actually happening since one federal court has already ruled on an aspect of the same case and said judgment was affirmed. Yes, it’s in a different district, but it’s still the same case. The jurisdiction was moved to pre-empt a change of venue request (as well as get a rocket docket). Now, granted, the judge in this particular case was friendly to Trump during the civil claims he brought about this last year, but I think much stricter scrutiny is going to apply, and any funny business is likely to not work.

Still, we shall see.

 

[49ersfootball]

The Espionage Act (at least the part concerning Trump) covers willful retention of national defense information among other things. Broadly speaking, I understand your argument, but it mainly comes down to it being national defense information that Trump retained tdespite repeated efforts by the government to get the documents back prior to even the grand jury subpoena (the back and forth with NARA), plus the fact that Trump was busy scheming to avoid complying with it even after the subpoena was received.

Had he just handed over the documents like he was asked, it wouldn’t have been an issue (well, maybe DOJ would have still pursued it, but in light of the past misbehavior by Clinton, plus the fact that both Biden and Pence were also found to have had stuff) would have made it very obviously a partisan witch hunt, and would have been a lot harder to prove the EA violations.

As far as the privilege claims go, I don’t see another appeal actually happening since one federal court has already ruled on an aspect of the same case and said judgment was affirmed. Yes, it’s in a different district, but it’s still the same case. The jurisdiction was moved to pre-empt a change of venue request (as well as get a rocket docket). Now, granted, the judge in this particular case was friendly to Trump during the civil claims he brought about this last year, but I think much stricter scrutiny is going to apply, and any funny business is likely to not work.

Still, we shall see.

From what I've heard, Trump will NOT be photographed with the typical mugshot. I think he'll be finger-printed though according to several news reports.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

In the meantime OK Governor Kevin Stitt (R) endorsing FL Governor Ron DeSantis (R) during campaign rally in Tulsa, OK over the weekend.

Endorsing the Uniparty's chosen puppet, a CIA-affiliated lockdowner, huh? Interesting choice.

 

[TyrantTriumphant]

Endorsing the Uniparty's chosen puppet, a CIA affiliated lockdowner huh? Interesting choice.

This is complete nonsense. DeSantis was one of the best governors in the country in rejecting lockdown authoritarianism. He was far better on Trump I may add, who is still going on about how DeSantis opened up the state too early and how great the vaccines are.

Calling DeSantis a member of the uniparty is equally absurd. What member of the establishment would go after groomers, illegals, and Disney so hard?

And yes, some RINOs support and fund DeSantis. Plenty of them also hate him. Just listen to Asa, Christie, and Haley whine about how DeSantis is too hard on the big corporations.

It's also worth noting that Trump is not self funding despite what he may claim. He never spends his own money on politics, all of his campaign money comes from donors. Donors such as Disney, which is why Trump and his son squealed like a stuck pig when DeSantis took on the mouse.

If you prefer Trump to DeSantis that's fine. But it's ridiculous to smear DeSantis in such a absurd manner.

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

If you prefer Trump to DeSantis that's fine. But it's ridiculous to smear DeSantis in such a absurd manner.

The only candidate I prefer is the one who will do the most amount of damage to the bureaucratic class and the glowies.

If that's DeSantis, Trump or RFK? Or hell even a schizophrenic rapper than I'll vote for the candidate who promises to purge the Federal Government and go after the social credit score people.

 

[TyrantTriumphant]

The only candidate I prefer is the one who will do the most amount of damage to the bureaucratic class and the glowies.

I thoroughly agree with this. Which is why I prefer DeSantis.

Trump had years to drain the swamp, but in the end the swamp won. Not helped by his poor choice in subordinates, most of whom were fools or traitors. DeSantis on the other hand has been purging the left from the systems of power in Florida whenever he's had the opportunity.

I think that part of the problem is that Trump just isn't a detail oriented person. Which is fine under some circumstances, but when the entire bureaucracy is weaponized against you, you can't just hand everything off to some subordinate and hope that everything turns out well. You have to keep an eye on your subordinates and make sure they aren't working against you, as well as educate yourself sufficiently about the issues to know whether or not your subordinates are bullshiting you.

And Trump never did any of that. Oftentimes he didn't even read his briefings.

The right needs a leader who can drain the swamp. And Trump is not that person.

 

[Blasterbot]

DeSantis has done nothing over his war room trying to pass off AI generated images as real. no apology. no firing. nothing at all. he is just going to hope that he can lie his way above the 20% polls he has right now. if you are arguing that desantis will be better than trump at hiring and firing? we can see the results in his campaign it ain't looking good. I will bet on trump being angry and wanting revenge over DeSantis at this point.

 

[Bigking321]

DeSantis is getting bad advice from the establishment.

If he had waited 4 years he would be guaranteed. Absolute smooth sailing straight to the republican nomination.

But they want him to run NOW to try and hurt Trump. He's not going to beat Trump, only potentially damage him, and he is generating negative energy with the base that will hurt him in 4 years.

Win-win for the establishment. Weaken Trump for now and weaken DeSantis for later.

 

[ShieldWife]

Endorsing the Uniparty's chosen puppet, a CIA-affiliated lockdowner, huh? Interesting choice.

I would go even further than Walsh. Biden is just a stooge with one foot in the grave already. Prosecuting him would be just but pointless.

How I would go further is abolish the FBI and CIA, then make all of their secrets public before arresting any members of either organization who were involved in treasonous and/or corrupt activities like persecuting or murdering dissidents, spying on citizens, starting wars or fake flags, lying about or fabricating crimes, involvement in election fraud in the USA or elsewhere. Anyone found to be involved in those activities need life in prison at the minimum.

Then go after the big corporations, not just financially to ruin middle classed stock holders, but criminally prosecute the people who run those companies for their corrupt collusion with the government to destroy our rights, election, and democracy.

That’s just for starters. Honestly, our system is so corrupt that any administration that could pose a serious threat to the powers that be that they would become really scary in their own right.

 

[strunkenwhite]

I'm not exactly sure what Walsh thinks "mutually assured destruction" means.

 

[Buba]

It is Tuesday ... just saying ...

 

[The Immortal Watch Dog]

I'm not exactly sure what Walsh thinks "mutually assured destruction" means.

I think he's arguing that the Republicans should add to the damage the Dems have done to the veneer until its pulled down entirely?

I dunno he really likes to dance on the line between meaningful shit and fed posting

 

[Rocinante]

I'm not exactly sure what Walsh thinks "mutually assured destruction" means.

Okay compare it to nukes.

They dropped a nuke by going at Trump.

MAD would mean the right drops it's own nukes and starts going for lefties.

Which will in turn cause them to go for more right wingers, etc.

This is why some people thought them attacking Trump this way sets such a bad precedent. The left is hoping the right just takes this sitting down. They probably will. Walsh is saying that they need to fight back.

This would be an utter shitshow but really, it needs to happen. Can you imagine? It'll be some extreme turmoil for a bit. But the country that comes out the other side will be one that holds its politicians accountable to the law.

 

[49ersfootball]

Endorsing the Uniparty's chosen puppet, a CIA-affiliated lockdowner, huh? Interesting choice.

Pretty sure DeSantis never locked down FL during COVID-19. He was rewarded with massive landslide victory in 2022.

 

[49ersfootball]

It is Tuesday ... just saying ...

Tuesday afternoon is when regular scheduled programming gets interrupted for the Trump scoop.

 

[Largo]

If he had waited 4 years he would be guaranteed. Absolute smooth sailing straight to the republican nomination.

In June 2019, no one knew who the fuck Ron DeSantis was. In June 2011, the idea that Donald Trump would be president would have seemed utterly ridiculous to everyone.

It's ridiculous to act like the 2028 nominee can be guaranteed from June 2023.

 

[49ersfootball]

In June 2019, no one knew who the fuck Ron DeSantis was. In June 2011, the idea that Donald Trump would be president would have seemed utterly ridiculous to everyone.

It's ridiculous to act like the 2028 nominee can be guaranteed from June 2023.

Let's not forget about DeSantis winning the Presidency in 2024.

 

[Blasterbot]

Pretty sure DeSantis never locked down FL during COVID-19. He was rewarded with massive landslide victory in 2022.

he did. pretty sure only south dakata just straight up said no to lock downs. he was one of the 1st to lift them though.

 

[Airedale260]

It's also worth noting that Trump is not self funding despite what he may claim. He never spends his own money on politics, all of his campaign money comes from donors. Donors such as Disney, which is why Trump and his son squealed like a stuck pig when DeSantis took on the mouse.

If you prefer Trump to DeSantis that's fine. But it's ridiculous to smear DeSantis in such a absurd manner.

I’d also point out that in addition to not being self-funding, Trump is actively using the GOP as his personal piggy bank. One example being the “legal defense fund” he supposedly set up for January 6th protestors…all the money instead ended up going to paying his presidential campaign’s bills and his own legal bills (it was buried in the fine print on being used for other purposes so it was technically legal). Then other fundraisers were used to raise money for paying his legal team for Caroll’s defamation suit, among other things. Not for any actual campaigns.

DeSantis is getting bad advice from the establishment.

If he had waited 4 years he would be guaranteed. Absolute smooth sailing straight to the republican nomination.

But they want him to run NOW to try and hurt Trump. He's not going to beat Trump.

People want him to run now because nominating Trump would hand the presidency to a senile old guy who’s unlikely to serve out his full term, followed possibly by vice president who is breathtakingly incompetent and would be utterly out of her depth.

We found out from his first term that Trump doesn’t really give a shit about actually doing the job, he just likes the perks. To succeed, he’d need top drawer talent, but given how awful a boss (and person) he is, nobody with any sense wants to work for him. And to get the executive branch under control, you need capable people. People who will follow the Constitution and make sure everything is done according to the rules so such changes will stick, and people who can be trusted to restore faith in the federal government. That is, the complete opposite of the type of person Trump wants (where the only thing that matters is loyalty to him, and fuck everything else).

The indictment we’ve seen so far, plus everything else coming down the pipe, shows Trump doesn’t give a shit about national security or any crisis he causes or lives he puts at risk (some of those documents, according to the indictment, were from human sources). So why anyone is still supporting someone who actually doesn’t care about the rule of law or protecting national security or upholding the Constitution (like he swore to do) is beyond me.

Let's not forget about DeSantis winning the Presidency in 2024.

Honestly, if he is the nominee, Biden is screwed because being a generation younger, not being senile, and actually having a very good track record as an executive would likely generate as close to a landslide victory as possible.

Trump is still in the lead, but so was Howard Dean in 2003. Not to mention in debates, if he doesn’t show up and everyone starts roasting him while laying out their visions, he’s going to sink badly.

Not to mention, this indictment is going to really hurt him as the evidence makes its way into the general discourse. He’s also facing the Georgia stuff (debatable whether that would actually succeed), but also an investigation into whether he weaponized the IRS, and a securities fraud investigation over raising money for Truth Social as a venture (it’s a bit of arcane law, but is a criminal matter, and seems to have legs).

Maybe it’s just time we switch to a candidate who doesn’t have a habit of landing himself in hot water due to his own idiocy?