So are there plans to retake old American territories as well, like American Samoa, the Northern Mariana Islands, Guam, etc.? Puerto Rico already got statehood as mentioned in Chapter Three, and the rest of U.S. Caribbean territories are presumably either territories again or grouped up into larger groups to form states.
From the earlier stories we know that they intend to reclaim anything the pre-War US owned or occupied. So far we know that includes Canada, Hawaii, Greenland, Iceland, Cuba, most of Mexico, all 50 states, Haiti, Bermuda, and basically all the Caribbean islands. Anything out on the Pacific may have been rendered unusable from radiation and will have to wait till the mainland and the West Coast dockyards are secure.
One thing I feel I have to disagree on . . . The NCR probably would have fallen apart if they lost to the Legion at the Second Battle of Hoover Dam. They were facing a water crisis that makes the one faced by California in real life look like a joke. It was so bad that Hanlon, Chief of the NCR Rangers, still couldn't get over the idea of seeing so much fresh water when looking out at Lake Mead.
Also gonna take the time to say that a lot of people, in universe and out, really love to grossly underestimate or downplay the Legion.
===
Chief Hanlon: Back west, you don't see too many of these. Lakes, I mean. Natural or man-made. Any kind, really. We neglected the dams or pumped all the water out a long time ago. Owens, Isabella, the San Luis. Drained the aquifers of everything they had. Just a lot of mud and dust now. It's a different feeling, watching the sun come up over the water. Takes some getting used to.
===
As big a deal as some people made over the electricity provided by Hoover Dam, the single most important thing in the Mojave for the NCR was actually Lake Mead. It is basically THE primary source of fresh water for most of California, Nevada, and Arizona, and in real life the Californians are such gluttonous water hogs that they're in danger of rendering Hoover Dam inoperable with how badly they've drained Lake Mead.
With how bad their situation was, if they were denied access to that water the NCR would basically fall apart from mass starvation and thirst due to ongoing drought conditions on top of the other problems it was going through at the time.
Like, one of the things the Enclave could have done to basically cripple the NCR? During that bombing raid on the New Vegas area that they launched as a reprisal for the attempted assassination of Autumn? All they'd really have needed to do was blow up the Hoover Dam and let Lake Mead drain itself out.
===
Oh, and for the expansionism question.
I can't remember the full extent of their goals, but bare minimum? The United States wants to annex ALL of North America.
Maybe one day they'll try for South America, too, for a truly United States of America, but for now they're willing to content themselves with the Panama-Colombia border being the new southern border of the USA. (If nothing else, such a narrow border would be more convenient for Border Patrol.)
That said I do feel even with the decades of build up that some things seemed rushed. Having lots of new skyscrapers in D.C. for one. Even in today's world you have to travel to edge of the beltway to see really skyscraper. The Enclave is all about Amercian history and r3gqin in bg what was lost. I would then expect to see D.C. rebuilt with more lower level buildings. Not to mention that findj n.v g funds to build this gs like the mentioned freedom tower would be a massive project on a newly formed country that has to rebuild everything. To put it in perspective the REA was founded in 1934 to bring electricity to rual Amercia and it took till the 1970s for 98 percent of amercian farms to have electric power. That is 40 years in a county jail hat was not destroyed and facing manpower issues.
Consider America 1900 with America 1940, or even America 1860 with 1900 and now add the cutting edge of 2077 USA's technology that the Enclave possessed, like consumer fission/fusion power. There's also the fact that Fallout physics are very much in slipstream with actual reality, such as the Glowing Sea still being irradiated AF 200 years after the bombs dropped BUT also the Children of the Atom being able to set up a colony at ground zero (just for example, there are comparable illustrations in all the FO games). As such a lot of the E-USA's work in rebuilding would be renovating and recovering stuff that still works.
Not to mention all the space stuff. While the Fallout games pay fast and lose with reality at times trips to Mars seem far fetched. While I can believe that they have rebuild the GPS network and took over what ever pre-war assets where available I doubt the ability of the Enclave to mot only conquer half of rebuild rebuild it and expand a space programs to this level.
As of now we've seen they have one space plane and have brought one satellite back into service. There are also straight up interstellar capable aliens zipping around up there in flying saucers. I'd argue their space capabilities are on par with the setting.
So I know that we are seeing the capital from the veiw pointing Amercain royalty but I do believe that you are under estimating the scale of rebuilding that the Enclave has to on top of funding a hand full of proxy wars. Maybe showcasing how areas outside of the enclave heartland have a lower tech level may help.
The thing is, though, that the outskirts wouldn't have a lower tech base so long as they also had access to electricity since, like Africa in real life, all the 'inventing the wheel' infrastructure can be leapfrogged and consumer tech miniaturized and consumerized to the point that President Washington and some random guy out in the sticks would own the same model Pip Boy since the next generation model is still in the alpha testing phase.
One thing I feel I have to disagree on . . . The NCR probably would have fallen apart if they lost to the Legion at the Second Battle of Hoover Dam. They were facing a water crisis that makes the one faced by California in real life look like a joke. It was so bad that Hanlon, Chief of the NCR Rangers, still couldn't get over the idea of seeing so much fresh water when looking out at Lake Mead.
Also gonna take the time to say that a lot of people, in universe and out, really love to grossly underestimate or downplay the Legion.
While that is true I do not believe Hanlon is the best source on what was going. Yes, he was in charge of the Ranger but due to the first battle of Hoover Dam his veiws have been warped. Instead of looking at the evidence to find a position and make plans. Hanlon does the opposite, he has a conculsion and find evidence to fit his world veiw.
This is due to his massive case of PTSD and depression. But it does cause problems in trusting his statements.
The big thing about Hoover Dam seems to be the power from it with water being important but more for the New Vegas area. There is a reason that the NCR and House had a power sharing agreement. While water was important I doubt that Lake Mead could supply all the NCR with water. They would have to run Brahmin caravans on a scale unseen in the post war wrold. This is not the days of Fallout 1 when the F
Den could supply water for the entire region. The NCR is now a nation state that covers thousands of square miles. So while I am sure that the Lake Mead's water does help that the NCR could survive without it.
The other reason beside the scale of having Lake Mead be the main water source or Honlon's warped world veiw is that the NCR treats the New Vegas as a side show till late in the game. While some of this could be for game play reasons like have even sides and leveling up some of it does fit the back story. We hear about other campaigns and issue that they veiw more important. If the water from Lake Mead was so important we would heavy troopers and a larger force there from the start of the game.
As for the Legion you are right that they get down played by a lot of fans. I do think that the Legion while not on the same tech level can match the NCR in New Vegas. The problem comes form pushing on past New Vegas. Even in the game you can see that Ceasar acknowledges this. There is the reason that he wants to turn New Vegas into New Rome and start changing the Legion from a war band into a nation state.
Personally I think that the Legion could win in New Vegas but would make little ground past that. The fact is that going though the mountains narrows the front for the NCR and allows the to concentrate their forces behind forts that 6he Legion can not bypass. It also shortens their supply lines and let's them fight in an area not infested with a bunch of powers they do not control.
The other factor is that I do not picture the Legion lasting past Ceasar death. Just look at the other Legion leaders. At best I would expect infighting to cause a civil war that breaks apart the Legion. They just do not have bureaucracy to keep things running for long.
All the NCR needs to do after a loss at New Vegas is bleed them in the Mountains and wait till the self destruct.
I mean, one spacecraft made a trip to Mars largely as a propaganda stunt. It's not like there are O'Neill colonies around the moons of Jupiter or whatnot.
I'm not so sure about the Legion lacking bureaucracy. At least judging by the bill of sale you find at Novac.
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We, the representatives of the Consul Officiorum, have this day bargained and purchased from Jeannie May Crawford of the township of Novac the exclusive rights to ownership and sale of the slave Carla Boone for the sum of one thousand bottle caps, and those of her unborn child for the sum of five hundred bottle caps, the receipt whereof is hereby acknowledged. We warrant the slave and her young to be sound, healthy, and slaves for life. We covenant with the said, Jeannie May Crawford, that we have full power to bargain and sell said slave and her offspring. Payment of an additional five hundred bottle caps will be due pending successful maturation of the fetus, the claim to which shall be guaranteed by possession of this document. M. Scribonius Libo Drusus et al.
Administrators of M. Licinius Crassus, Consul Officiorum ab Famulatus
===
Consul Officiorum ab Falmatus is roughly translated to "Secretary of Slavery Affairs".
Doesn't mean much for the story since the Legion is already dead and buried, but it seems more robust than a lot of people give it credit for.
At least insomuch as even Marcus thinks it could keep on going for at least a few decades after Caesar's death before it started collapsing.
And, for what it's worth, Marcus also thinks if the NCR doesn't shape up it's going to face a revolution. Mostly mentioning it because that one NCR adviser is so sure the Enclave's population is going to revolt when the NCR comes knocking, and it'd be downright hilarious if the war going bad for the NCR caused the NCR to be the ones facing down a revolt.
Anyway, E-USA's combined intel HQ, mentioned in the first chapter as located on Theodore Roosevelt Island, and which we'll see more of relatively soon:
About 243 metres tall, tried to go for something of an art deco look, but an appropriate design for the roof was a bit troubling for sometime.
I mean, one spacecraft made a trip to Mars largely as a propaganda stunt. It's not like there are O'Neill colonies around the moons of Jupiter or whatnot.
That would make more sense. It just sounded like there was a lot more happened from Walker viewpoint. A propaganda trip and launching a couple satellites puts in back much more reasonable category.
I'm not so sure about the Legion lacking bureaucracy. At least judging by the bill of sale you find at Novac.
===
We, the representatives of the Consul Officiorum, have this day bargained and purchased from Jeannie May Crawford of the township of Novac the exclusive rights to ownership and sale of the slave Carla Boone for the sum of one thousand bottle caps, and those of her unborn child for the sum of five hundred bottle caps, the receipt whereof is hereby acknowledged. We warrant the slave and her young to be sound, healthy, and slaves for life. We covenant with the said, Jeannie May Crawford, that we have full power to bargain and sell said slave and her offspring. Payment of an additional five hundred bottle caps will be due pending successful maturation of the fetus, the claim to which shall be guaranteed by possession of this document. M. Scribonius Libo Drusus et al.
Administrators of M. Licinius Crassus, Consul Officiorum ab Famulatus
===
Consul Officiorum ab Falmatus is roughly translated to "Secretary of Slavery Affairs".
Doesn't mean much for the story since the Legion is already dead and buried, but it seems more robust than a lot of people give it credit for.
At least insomuch as even Marcus thinks it could keep on going for at least a few decades after Caesar's death before it started collapsing.
And, for what it's worth, Marcus also thinks if the NCR doesn't shape up it's going to face a revolution. Mostly mentioning it because that one NCR adviser is so sure the Enclave's population is going to revolt when the NCR comes knocking, and it'd be downright hilarious if the war going bad for the NCR caused the NCR to be the ones facing down a revolt.
I forgot about the bill of sale you find but that is part.of the problem. All we see from the Legion is a war camp and little else to prove they have a stable goverment capable keeping the Legion going after Ceasar.
We don't see the build up the NCR that we got in Fallout 2 or the civilian side that we see in New Vegas. Mostly get to see a bunch of tribals that are held together by force and a recent push of "Roman" culture. While they may last a couple fo decades that would be very optimistic. I would give it a decade before a civil war broke them into war states and another 30 to 40 years before they are nothing but a memory.
I personally don't see the Legion pushing past New Vegas anytime soon they had won. Meaning that the NCR has time to straighten it self out.
I could see a revolution coming in the NCR. You have a few rich people that act like petty warlords. Then you have enemies that the goverment keeps losing against. First the New Vegas bombing and then losing New Orleans, Texas and seeing their major ally lose even more ground. The cost of the war in lives and caps is going to hit the poor hard and rationalism can only keep poor people loyal and fighting so long.
So I could see.soem5h8ng like a communist rebellion hitting them mid war. It will end badly and allow the Enclave to win but it is much more likely then a popular uprising in the Enclave happening. While the Enclave is a dictatorship with a thin cover of democracy it ot knows that you have to win ok very the people for athe long struggle to recover Amercia. Where the NCR has the problems that all Democracyies have with tough wars. Keeping the population willing and able to fight.
. While the Enclave is a dictatorship with a thin cover of democracy it ot knows that you have to win ok very the people for athe long struggle to recover Amercia.
By this point the US, the Enclave being pretty much dead, is far from a dictatorship. Hell they are probably more functionally democratic overall given they lack states runs by corporations and crime families.
By this point the US, the Enclave being pretty much dead, is far from a dictatorship. Hell they are probably more functionally democratic overall given they lack states runs by corporations and crime families.
If anything, they don't even NEED a secret police or propaganda machine
The majority of Enclave citizens have no proof or evidence to know their government was once evil and their militaries are purely very much voluntary forces
No need to forcibly recruit, when the majority of citizens are patriots as well as, I presume nice and smart enough to help others
I think "NGO's" like Arcade Gannon's are now purely private and don't secretly have government money to help out in other areas outside of Enclave territory, even.
No need to even instruct said NGO's to give out propaganda when they'll do it on instinct or be living examples that the Enclave went nice
While the Enclave is a dictatorship with a thin cover of democracy it ot knows that you have to win ok very the people for athe long struggle to recover Amercia.
Well, it was pretty much a dictatorship in the capital wasteland for a good while, which they justified with martial law due to all social order having been broken down and not actually having that many directly re-integrated territories. They basically forced themselves to democratize by taking in so many wastelanders who had forms of democratic governments into the fold, that they outnumbered the original Enclave leaders and soldiers by the literal thousands.
They pretty much had no choice but become less authoritarian and more democratic if they actually wanted to keep a hold on everything (which is actually what Autumn wanted in this universe).
By this point the US, the Enclave being pretty much dead, is far from a dictatorship. Hell they are probably more functionally democratic overall given they lack states runs by corporations and crime families.
It is amazing what you can do when you offer a better quality of life for everyone involved and have enough fire power to either cull or tame and defang all the potential trouble-makers.
It is amazing what you can do when you offer a better quality of life for everyone involved and enough fire power to either cull or tame and defang all the potential trouble-makers.
Even better, have a problem with Immortan Joe and his army of crazy cultists? Well, the Enclave doesn't want to tolerate a bunch of savage stupid good for nothings who waste HUGE amounts of gasoline just to use impractically large vehicles and play guitar-flamethrowers
I suppose on some level, how long the Legion actually manages to last would depend on how far along Caesar is able to get with his plans to transition the Legion into a proper nation state. Since the only way for the Legion to actually win when the Courier is involved is for the Courier to support the Legion.
Though that's less that they needed the Courier, as the Legion was doing a pretty good job of setting up their victory without them, and more that they need the Courier to not be opposed to them.
It's like the one major benefit of the Legion getting so much of its content cut for time, they come across as a lot more competent despite the jokes people like to make about them. Unlike the NCR, who rely on the Courier to make almost every single thing that can go right for them actually go right, the only thing a Legion aligned Courier really does is deal with Caesar's tumor and find the parts to fix that Howitzer. Everything else you do for the Legion is something they were going to do without the Courier to begin with. A Legion aligned Courier just makes those things happen faster.
Really wish Obsidian had had the time to properly flesh them out. So all we'll ever truly be able to do is speculate on Nova Roma.
As for the talk of the Enclave democratizing. They didn't really need to do that, so I wouldn't say they forced themselves to democratize. There's a relevant section in the write up(s) on what life is actually supposed to be like in Legion territory for their subjects.
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People living under the Legion are primarily inhabitants of non-tribal communities that existed before the rise of the Legion. In their territory (Arizona, New Mexico and other areas) the Legion enslaves tribes, with exceptions made to the organized settlements of the Mojave and NCR regions since they are considered war zones. People under Legion control are considered subjects, not members of the Legion proper.
Lands under Caesar's protection enjoy stability and security far greater than lands outside its sphere of influence. Traders that have to cross NCR's territories with a guard contingent can safely travel on Legion trade routes alone, without fear of being raided.
People who live in Legion towns enjoy a stable, consistent flow of electricity and water, a steady and ample food supply, and very low crime and corruption levels. They enjoy safe and productive lives with one caveat: never disobey or disturb the Legion. Caesar's men only ask once and the order has to be carried out without question, even if it means resettling fifty miles away at a moment's notice. This generally means that Legion subjects have little, if any, political freedom, rights, or say in what happens to their communities. However, if one keeps quiet, goes about their business and fulfills the rare request the Legion has, then Caesar is a peaceful and caring lord. Many people don't consider this a problem, as even before Caesar's rise, they had little say in the chaotic wastes.
===
The additional Legion locations would have had more traveling non-Legion residents of Legion territories. The Fort and Cottonwood Cove made sense as heavy military outposts where the vast majority of the population consisted of soldiers and slaves. The other locations would have had more "civilians". It's not accurate to think of them as citizens of the Legion (the Legion is purely military), but as non-tribal people who live in areas under Legion control.
While Caesar intentionally enslaves NCR and Mojave residents in the war zone, most of the enslavement that happens in the east happens to tribals. As Raul indicates, there are non-tribal communities that came under Legion control a long time ago. The additional locations would have shown what life is like for those people.
The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards).
In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well. Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway).
===
Spoiler'd for length, but they both basically say the same thing with slightly different words.
The relevant bits are at the end, where most of the Legion's subjects don't actually care that they've had to trade freedom for safety. Because the Wastelands are such miserable places that they never really had much freedom to begin with.
Which could be another angle for anti-NCR sentiment. Popping Caesar and triggering the collapse of the Legion resulted in pretty nasty and chaotic shit going down in the former Legion lands. There could easily be some lingering resentment. Especially if they look at the increased crime and corruption of NCR rule and feel like they're worse off than they were under the Legion.
Anyways . . . The point was that most Wastelanders are actually more than okay with dictatorial rule as long as that rule brings stability. So the Enclave's United States can easily remain a LOT more authoritarian than we in the real world are used to and still be loved for it.
If you're a subject, male or female, the policy is basically a combo of "don't get in our way" and "don't make us come over there". They otherwise let you run yourself as long as you obey Legion laws.
And there's a lot of weird shit we never got to see. Like, there's actually supposed to be exactly one way for a woman to be respected in the Legion, and that's some kind of priestess class. (The priestesses are the ones who actually raise Legion children and indoctrinate them to follow Caesar.)
The Legion is also . . . weird about technology. Like, in a recent Legion run I did, if you outright ask Caesar about his Auto-Doc he'll tell you that it isn't actually some shameful secret. It's actually reserved as a reward for especially loyal and successful Legionaries. It's just limited to really basic procedures. At least until a Legion Courier finds a replacement module so it can do brain surgery again.
As I understand it, a lot of the oddities of the Legion are things he wants to phase out as he transitions from the Legion to Nova Roma. It's just more convenient for him to quickly raise his armies to operate it as he currently does or something to that effect.
They just have a lot of social darwinist shit where you have to earn the privilege of using more advanced stuff.
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Caesar: It's called an Auto-Doc. As the name suggests, it's an automated physician - more or less. It can treat broken bones, cuts, punctures, scrapes. Sometimes I bestow its use upon someone I favor. Makes for a powerful gift, in a culture that forbids painkillers and is largely ignorant of medical science.
===
And the interesting thing is that the Legion's tribal medicine isn't actually that bad. Like, sure, the basic bitch healing powders are inferior to a Stimpak . . . But they have better versions of it that match or exceed Stimpaks after the various DLCs.
Like, with maxed out medicine a Stimpak will heal 90 HP. The Bitter Drink the Legion was given after Lonesome Road was released? Where you can learn the recipe from Ulysses? That stuff restores 108 HP. (It actually used to be even better before a patch.)
The kicker. Stimpaks, Healing Powder, and Bitter Drink can all be made with the same damn ingredients. Broc Flowers and Xander Root.
The only real difference is that the powder is in an unprocessed form, and judging by the hit to Perception, gets you a little high. Properly processed, you get a liquid form that can be injected (Stimpak) or ingested (Bitter Drink) without getting you high.
Oh, and Stimpaks heal you less but do it in a shorter period of time while Bitter Drink heals you for more but over a slightly longer period of time. (Six seconds versus eighteen seconds.)
So ultimately you get this funny thing where the Legion doesn't like Stimpaks even though their medicine uses the same ingredients . . . Because I guess they think injected medicine is impure but ingested medicine is fine? I don't fucking know.
@Navarro
Say, by any chance did the Enclave in their travels ever see tribal medicine and have their doctors and scientists research them? Sure they maybe made from irradiated mutant animal and/or plant, but there must be something beneficial
Also, does the Enclave still make use of melee weapons outside of knives for the military?
Super-Sledges+Jetpack Power Armor sounds like a pretty fucking awesome combination.....or are they too advanced, disciplined and cautious to go for using that as equipment? Using rippers to terrorize and demoralize enemies, sounds awesome, but shooting at them with energy weapons reduces them to ashes
It'd be weird if they didn't, but I know one thing that can be pointed to as far as the "using mutated wildlife" thing is concerned.
When they set up a bunch of Wasteland Outposts in Fallout 3, one of their outposts is dedicated to studying the new wildlife.
Apparently the mutant mole rats in Fallout have a greatly reduced ability to feel pain. Like, enough to experience discomfort but not to be debilitated by it to the point other animals would back off. At least in their skin. I don't know about other parts of the body.
The same entry on them has Enclave scientists wondering if they can use gene therapies to recreate this level of pain tolerance in Humans.
===
Kingdom: Animalia
Phylum: Chordata
Class: Mammalia
Order: Rodentia
Family: Bathyergidae
Subject most closely resembles a Heterocephalus Glaber with enlargement due to heavy radiation. While much larger in size than generational ancestors, the local variety seems to have similarly low brain function, possibly due to an exceedingly tiny brain organ. Subject's incisors show increased enamel and dentine growth, making them razor sharp. Further study reveals extremely low levels of Substance P giving this subject an incredible tolerance to pain. I will take skin samples of my next subject as I believe the lack of Substance P can be spliced and manipulated for beneficial research, but this theory requires testing in a more fitting lab.
===
Substance P is a real thing.
It is a neuropeptide, acting as a neurotransmitter and as a neuromodulator. It is found in the brain and spinal cord and is associated with inflammatory processes and pain.
Preclinical data support the notion that Substance P is an important element in pain perception. The sensory function of substance P is thought to be related to the transmission of pain information into the central nervous system.
So ultimately you get this funny thing where the Legion doesn't like Stimpaks even though their medicine uses the same ingredients . . . Because I guess they think injected medicine is impure but ingested medicine is fine? I don't fucking know.
I had thought that the Stimpack thing was a weird edge case on the Legion's general policy of being adverse to mass use of things they can't sustain production of. The most obvious example being how guns aren't common among Legion recruits because each one is a precious relic with somewhat limited ammunition.
That or it comes down to the fact that if the medicine works about as well processed into a drink, precision blowing glass and making hypodermics on a pre-industrial society is hilariously wasteful. Could well be Caesar included it in the list of medicines to avoid for that reason specifically and like all the other things he didn't explain fully when forming the Legion it sort of took on a life of its own.
For the Legion, guns aren't really precious relics to be conserved. They actually have access to some pretty decent gear all things considered. But they have a very survival of the fittest view on things. If you want that good shit you have to prove you deserve it by surviving multiple battles.
Good weapons and armor are literally a privilege to be earned.
So it's less an inability to equip their soldiers and more an attitude that only those who can survive battles are worth properly equipping.
The Legion probably relies on those civilized subjects to produce guns for them as tribute, and where guns are concerned they seem to strongly prefer rifles.
Not the only thing they use, but it seems like the general track is they start you out with a shitty varmint rifle. Manage to not die and you move on to cowboy repeaters and hunting rifles. Keep surviving and you get to play with brush guns, marksman rifles, and even anti-materiel rifles.
And they were even trying to get a reliable supply of energy weapons.
It's not something a lot of people see, since it literally requires letting Cass be murdered by the Van Graffs, but the Legion seriously tried to arrange an arms deal with the Van Graffs. Despite their less than stellar relations with the NCR, the arms deal proved to be nothing more than a ploy to lure some of the Legion's forces into an NCR trap.
