Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Jormungandr]

It might also have the opposite effect: When Anakin thought he lost Obi Wan during the Clone Wars, he pretty much went batshit insane to the point where even Ahsoka was worried for him.

It might (and possibly is the most logical outcome) ostracize him from the Jedi even more, given they are the ones who assigned Obi Wan the mission, but (ironically) his irrational, emotional instability might work against Palpatine here because of its unpredictability.

There's also Padme and Ahsoka being factors, especially since the last season of the Clone Wars revealed to us that when the Jedi were having that holocall in RotS, Ahsoka walked in directly afterwards and the call didn't end when we thought it did (an extended version of the movie's scene had Ahsoka chiming in after it ends).



Given that we've seen Ahsoka sense when Anakin was emotionally hurt, his going batshit insane would deficiently lead her to contacting him.

His going to Padme may create a domino effect where he fully confides in her, too.

Ripple effects can be crazy and unpredictable, yo.

 

[Bacle]

New Tales Of series dropping, we are getting Morgan Elsbeth's backstory, and getting to see Bariss Offee become an Inquisitor.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

More thoughts on why I think an unburnt Vader would prefer to maintain the form of democracy instead of ruling as an autocrat: he wants to see himself as a hero. Assuming the title of Emperor would leave a bitter taste in his mouth, as if he just vindicates all those stories and history lessons he had as a Jedi about the Sith being warmongering tyrants and despots. In contrast, by restoring the formalities of the Republic, he can hail himself and with a degree of truth as the savior of democracy, a hero who stopped a villain from imposing a cruel tyranny on the galaxy, and more personal to Vader, proved - as he sees it - the Jedi wrong: a Sith Lord can be a force of good...at least, from Vader's perspective.

It just so happens that he needs to stay in control of the military, so he can protect the Republic from any threat without (such as Grievous and what's left of the CIS)...and from within, as well. That's what a hero does, doesn't it? Protect people, sometimes even when they don't realize they need it. And besides, the Senate needs direction, otherwise, they'd spend all their time talking about small and unimportant things instead of tackling the bigger issues. Say...why is the Senate wasting time arguing about cultural issues between so-and-so systems, when the Empire Republic could - should - be out liberating slaves in Hutt Space (and genociding pacifying those slaving worms and their Zygerrian co-conspirators)?

Yeah, that also I think is Vader's ultimate goal as Supreme Commander - so, basically imperator - of the Republic. A great (!) crusade against the Hutts, Zygerrians, and other slaver societies on the Rim, freeing slaves and bringing freedom and justice (with gun barrels) to the galaxy. I imagine this is also his rallying cry, a soft-handed way to silence dissent, that if you're against his policies, then you support slavery. Not a very good position to be in, I imagine, for the likes of Bail, Mothma, and Bel Iblis, among others.

 

[Jormungandr]

New Tales Of series dropping, we are getting Morgan Elsbeth's backstory, and getting to see Bariss Offee become an Inquisitor.

So Bariss being an Inquisitor is pretty much what people expected, and it's being canonized. Nice.

I love the way Tales of the Jedi is burned away into Tales of the Empire -- the Bad Batch did the same thing with the Clone Wars' logo, so it's consistent branding.

I wonder if Bariss will sense that Vader is Anakin? Or see enough hints to work it out?

When we saw Grievous stomp the Night Sisters in that Clone Wars episode (to save Dooku), did we see her (as a background Night Sister) fight him in one of the action scenes, meaning she's an "Ascended Extra", or did they specifically introduce that new sequence to the old event (like Order 66's scenes in the Mandalorian which took place in RotS) for her character? We know of another Night Sister survivor in Merrin, so maybe we'll see her too?

The Clone Wars basically made Star Wars animation popular: While they had to finally end the Clone Wars, its popularity led to basically "Season 8" in the Bad Batch, Tales of the Jedi/Empire, so I think we'll be seeing more.

Rebels, I think, while okay narratively, stumbled/was a misstep with the more kid-friendly art-direction, so after its conclusion they abandoned the art style in favour of the more traditional Clone Wars one.

More thoughts on why I think an unburnt Vader would prefer to maintain the form of democracy instead of ruling as an autocrat: he wants to see himself as a hero. Assuming the title of Emperor would leave a bitter taste in his mouth, as if he just vindicates all those stories and history lessons he had as a Jedi about the Sith being warmongering tyrants and despots. In contrast, by restoring the formalities of the Republic, he can hail himself and with a degree of truth as the savior of democracy, a hero who stopped a villain from imposing a cruel tyranny on the galaxy, and more personal to Vader, proved - as he sees it - the Jedi wrong: a Sith Lord can be a force of good...at least, from Vader's perspective.

It just so happens that he needs to stay in control of the military, so he can protect it from any threat without (such as Grievous and what's left of the CIS)...and from within, as well. That's what a hero does, doesn't it? Protect people, sometimes even when they don't realize they need it. And besides, the Senate needs direction, otherwise, they'd spend all their time talking about small and unimportant things instead of tackling the bigger issues. Say...why is the Senate wasting time arguing about cultural issues between so-and-so systems, when the Empire Republic could - should - be out liberating slaves in Hutt Space (and genociding pacifying those slaving worms and their Zygerrian co-conspirators)?

Yeah, that also I think is Vader's ultimate goal as Supreme Commander - so, basically imperator - of the Republic. A great (!) crusade against the Hutts, Zygerrians, and other slaver societies on the Rim, freeing slaves and bringing freedom and justice (with gun barrels) to the galaxy. I imagine this is also his rallying cry, a soft-handed way to silence dissent, that if you're against his policies, then you support slavery. Not a very good position to be in, I imagine, for the likes of Bail, Mothma, and Bel Iblis, among others.

Additionally, if Imperator Vader/Anakin didn't impose all the heavy-handed industrialization and strip-mining oppression shit Palpatine did, any rebellion or movement will likely have a lack of support compared to the OTL situation because things honestly wouldn't be all that bad for planetary governments and the everyday citizen, especially non-humans.

The CIS worlds might be the hotbed for recruitment, and any remaining Jedi out there may try to organize something using them, but that also plays into Imperator Vader's hands -- the Jedi working with rebels or the CIS? Yeah, from an optics perspective, they're pretty much not helping the whole "Jedi tried a coup" thing Palpatine declared to the "Republic" and its citizens.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Additionally, if Imperator Vader/Anakin didn't impose all the heavy-handed industrialization and strip-mining oppression shit Palpatine did, any rebellion or movement will likely have a lack of support compared to the OTL situation because things honestly wouldn't be all that bad for planetary governments and the everyday citizen, especially non-humans.

Well, people will still need to work to eat, slavery ending doesn't change that, but I imagine Vader's going to set a strict policy against any abuses, again, because the Republic is supposed to be liberating and helping these people. Not simply replacing one set of masters with another. I imagine the RSB is going to be like 40k Commissars, backed by specialized Clone Troopers, on the eye for abuses by local bureaucrats and entrepreneurs, and cracking down harshly, with name-and-shame/public ostracization (getting paraded around with a sign saying 'profiteer' or something similar hanging around their neck) on the low end of punishment, and public execution on the upper end.

I imagine mixed feelings from Tarkin, on one hand, Vader's too obsessed with his image and the opinions of the lowly masses. On the other hand, well, Tarkin can't help but respect Vader's insistence on iron discipline for all levels of the Republic's hierarchy. And of course, sharing in vindictive satisfaction at the Republic military finally scouring the Hutts (among others) from the face of the galaxy.

The CIS worlds might be the hotbed for recruitment, and any remaining Jedi out there may try to organize something using them, but that also plays into Imperator Vader's hands -- the Jedi working with rebels or the CIS? Yeah, from an optics perspective, they're pretty much not helping the whole "Jedi tried a coup" thing Palpatine declared to the "Republic" and its citizens.

I predict a lot of personal vindication for Vader if this happens. No matter what else Sidious lied about, this one was absolutely true. In the end, for all their claims otherwise, the Jedi truly feared losing their power, and are willing to do whatever it takes to retake it, even working with rebels or slavers.

Vader's going to take a lot of satisfaction in hunting them down.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Heh.

Unstable Edgelord Anakin Skywalker still does a better job of ruling the Galaxy than Palpatine.

 

[Typhonis]

Especially if Padme is there to stabilize him.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Heh.

Unstable Edgelord Anakin Skywalker still does a better job of ruling the Galaxy than Palpatine.

For a given value of ‘better’, of course. Vader’s Republic is practically a Greek tyranny, only with very good PR and good goals, but ultimately a military dictatorship. The Senate is kept in line by fear of Clone Troopers cracking down on any dissent, to say nothing of Vader’s personal power in the Force, or even the mob lynching them if they opposed Vader’s populist/revolutionary policies.

Vader’s crusade against slavery? Remember that he’s still a Sith Lord, and he absolutely hates the Hutts. There’s just no way he doesn’t go all Final Solution on them. By the time the decades-long campaign ends, Nal Hutta is probably a bombed-out, possibly radioactive husk, covered in ruins littered with charred cartilage husks that used to be Hutts. The Zygerrians might get some mercy, as Anakin did seem to sympathize with Queen Miraj before her death, but this still probably involves cultural genocide. Families separated, children undergoing mandatory reeducation to de-slaver their society…

…basically, less reformation, as much as completely tearing down Zygerrian society before rebuilding it into whatever Vader thinks they ought to be.

Vader will get his wish of stamping out slavery (at least publicly), and will almost certainly have a cult of personality rise around him even if he doesn’t deliberately start one, but he’ll also have the blood of tens of billions at the least on his hands. And given how all this revolves around his personal power, drive, and ambition, it’s questionable if his vision of the Republic lasts past his death.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

More thoughts on why I think an unburnt Vader would prefer to maintain the form of democracy instead of ruling as an autocrat: he wants to see himself as a hero. Assuming the title of Emperor would leave a bitter taste in his mouth, as if he just vindicates all those stories and history lessons he had as a Jedi about the Sith being warmongering tyrants and despots. In contrast, by restoring the formalities of the Republic, he can hail himself and with a degree of truth as the savior of democracy, a hero who stopped a villain from imposing a cruel tyranny on the galaxy, and more personal to Vader, proved - as he sees it - the Jedi wrong: a Sith Lord can be a force of good...at least, from Vader's perspective.

It just so happens that he needs to stay in control of the military, so he can protect the Republic from any threat without (such as Grievous and what's left of the CIS)...and from within, as well. That's what a hero does, doesn't it? Protect people, sometimes even when they don't realize they need it. And besides, the Senate needs direction, otherwise, they'd spend all their time talking about small and unimportant things instead of tackling the bigger issues. Say...why is the Senate wasting time arguing about cultural issues between so-and-so systems, when the Empire Republic could - should - be out liberating slaves in Hutt Space (and genociding pacifying those slaving worms and their Zygerrian co-conspirators)?

Yeah, that also I think is Vader's ultimate goal as Supreme Commander - so, basically imperator - of the Republic. A great (!) crusade against the Hutts, Zygerrians, and other slaver societies on the Rim, freeing slaves and bringing freedom and justice (with gun barrels) to the galaxy. I imagine this is also his rallying cry, a soft-handed way to silence dissent, that if you're against his policies, then you support slavery. Not a very good position to be in, I imagine, for the likes of Bail, Mothma, and Bel Iblis, among others.

Kind of sounds like Vader would be the Augustus to Palpy's Caesar creating a more popular, well-intended empire if likely drenched in blood to achieve it.

Considering how much she is like her father I actually wonder if Leia might inheret her father's role as Supreme Commander while the more measured Luke, with no pressing crusade against evil to capture his attention, goes more for the softer approach with politics in the Imperial Senate.

 

[Typhonis]

Vader the hand of steel. If he has to do something someone messed up. Meanwhile, Padme is the gentle, caring, kind face of the Empire.

 

[Blasterbot]

I'd give it a decade, at most. Probably less, maybe even as early as once Sidious has dealt with Yoda, and before he has a chance to recover (or prepare contingencies to resurrect himself), Vader appears and cuts him down. Mas Amedda immediately tries to curry favor ala that fat guy from Demolition Man, i.e. "I am a very capable administrator, Lord Vader, and I would very happy to continue my service under your reign."

Dunno if Vader would actually claim the title of Emperor in such a scenario, in fact, I think it's more likely that he'll restore a facade of democracy, only with himself as Supreme Commander and de facto military dictator backed by a rubberstamp Senate. The real flashpoint here is Padme, who will almost certainly never go along with Vader's tyranny. She probably still dies in childbirth, but Vader will have his twins, and Vader being Vader, will probably do away with the Rule of Two entirely, and go back to the Old Sith tradition of Sith bloodlines. Both Luke and Leia get Sith training, and will be expected to marry powerful Force-sensitives so as to maximize the potential of their bloodlines, and maybe become co-chancellors of the Sith-dominated Republic in the future. Co-consuls, even, overseeing the Senate while Vader directly oversees the military.

I doubt he would try for supreme chancellor. He would probably aim for head of the military with a lightsaber based veto on any policies he deems stupid. he wouldn't micro manage. he would at most set a goal of fuck slavery and don't make me come back to the capitol. he isn't particularly politically minded. with all the benefits nd negatives associated with it.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

I doubt he would try for supreme chancellor. He would probably aim for head of the military with a lightsaber based veto on any policies he deems stupid. he wouldn't micro manage. he would at most set a goal of fuck slavery and don't make me come back to the capitol. he isn't particularly politically minded. with all the benefits nd negatives associated with it.

Mas Amedda would be Supreme Chancellor, albeit a puppet one. Vader would be Supreme Commander, originally an office also held by the Supreme Chancellor at the start of the Clone Wars, but precedent exists for it to be held by someone else besides the Chancellor. Revan, for example, held the office during the Mandalorian Wars. Likewise for various Republic officers during the Galactic Wars.

Amedda could easily assume the office of Supreme Chancellor - having previously been Vice-Chair - after Sidious' death, then reversing the proclamation of the Galactic Empire, appoint Vader Supreme Commander. Vader provides 'security' during the subsequent elections, which naturally see Amedda get his own term as Chancellor, before Vader focuses once more on the war...

...but, as the Jedi Coup proves, there are internal threats as well, so the Coruscant Guard gets reinforced, and there are even more Red Guards than ever in the Rotunda. All of whom answer to him, of course, a subtle (or not so subtle) reminder to both the Senate and to Amedda who actually rules in the Republic.

Vader the hand of steel. If he has to do something someone messed up. Meanwhile, Padme is the gentle, caring, kind face of the Empire.

I really, really don't think Padme would go along with this. Even if Vader restored the formalities of the Republic, she'd see right through its facade for what it actually is. Mustafar's duel and burning won't happen, but she and Vader would still have a big argument, maybe even ending with her getting choked to death, and the twins getting born via C-section instead. Vader being Vader, would just rationalize it as the Jedi (and/or Separatist sympathizers) turning her against him.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

Vader being Vader, would just rationalize it as the Jedi (and/or Separatist sympathizers) turning her against him.

Nah, that was cope and he knew it. Vader knew she rejected the monster he became and never forgave himself for her “and her child’s” death. One of the reasons Vader was such a brutal man was because he hated himself so much that his hate bled into the world around him.

Then again, if anything that saved him from becoming truly like Palpatine. Because beneath all the hate was regret and a shred of remorse.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Nah, that was cope and he knew it. Vader knew she rejected the monster he became and never forgave himself for her “and her child’s” death. One of the reasons Vader was such a brutal man was because he hated himself so much that his hate bled into the world around him.

Then again, if anything that saved him from becoming truly like Palpatine. Because beneath all the hate was regret and a shred of remorse.

Except in this scenario, he would still have his children. He succeeded in 'saving' at least the latter, as in the original vision it seemed like they all died together. And he might still have saved her too, if not for the Jedi twisting her mind against him.

Basically, for Vader, it's always the Jedi's fault. The Jedi were too busy licking the boots of fat and corrupt politicians to go out and actually do something about the galaxy's problems, whether it's lopping off slavers' heads en masse or just choking lazy corporate executives who refuse to do what they're told. That, or just sitting around and spouting off platitudes about 'letting go' and 'seeing the big picture' without thinking of how the little people actually feel.

This, I think, is what is the most dangerous about an unburnt Vader's variant of Sith philosophy. He'd be a fundamentally populist ruler, for whom military strength and sorcerous power are not the sole sources of power, but also revolutionary zeal and popular support from the people themselves. Whether it's the tens if not hundreds of billions of slaves freed by his fleet and armies, or the common masses who see a leader who actually knows and understands them in a way the traditional elite in the Senate, boardrooms, universities, and other such places never have, they all stand by him and behind him, roaring out their support and willing and able to give their lives for him.

Democracy in its purest form, that of the people, would be the central pillar of Darth Vader's political power. Hell, past a certain point, I think the RSB and COMPOR (Commission for the Preservation of the Republic) won't even need to directly take care of voices of dissent. Just a few undercover agents here and there spreading rumors, nudging public opinion in this or that direction, and suddenly you've got lynch mobs storming a university or a public square before dragging away a critic/s gone too vocal before stringing them up. Or burning them. Beaten to death by the mob is also another way to go.

In fact, I think this might become a staple/standard procedure for RSB agents hunting down would-be rebel organizers on the Rim like that guy in Rogue One. Once they're sure he's on the planet, they just spread the word (appropriately framed) among former slaves, and suddenly, the rebels walk out on the street only to be met and surrounded by a gigantic mob of stone-faced locals, carrying hammers, shovels, drills, clubs, and other improvised weapons. Cue fade to black, and maybe abruptly cut-off noises of people getting beaten to death.

It'd certainly have Darth Sidious' ghost laughing. As delicious as having the Senate applaud his ascension as Galactic Emperor was, it'd be even more delicious to see the masses roaring in support of a Sith Lord, and any attempt by Mon Mothma and her confederates to organize a proper rebellion killed at the grassroots level by the people themselves. In the end, faced with limited popular support, assuming they don't just give up then and there, they might end up having to resort to the same measures as the CIS, that of unthinking and unliving droid forces to fight against the Sith Republic. It's not the end he'd have preferred, but it's a satisfying one in its own way, as he'd have succeeded in turning the Chosen One of the Force into the most powerful and most dangerous Dark Lord of the Sith since the Old Sith Wars.

 

[Typhonis]

"They killed my wife. They Used their mind powers to turn her against me so I could not be there in time to save the Emperor. However, I was able to save our children. My son and my daughter whom the Jedi would see taken from me as they have taken from families in the past. "

"We must stand strong. We must stand firm. They dealt a blow to our Republic when we were on the verge of peace. They showed themselves for the manipulators they were and my only sorrow is I did not see it for myself in time."

"I state now that this government is still of the people, by the people, and for the people. Yet it is stronger than before. The rot and corruption is now cut out and we can stride forward. Stride united in purpose and in vision. I ask all of you to join me for I want there to be a better galaxy for not only you but for your children and my children as well."

Speech made by First Citizen Anakin Skywalker after his ascension to the position.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

"They killed my wife. They Used their mind powers to turn her against me so I could not be there in time to save the Emperor. However, I was able to save our children. My son and my daughter whom the Jedi would see taken from me as they have taken from families in the past. "

"We must stand strong. We must stand firm. They dealt a blow to our Republic when we were on the verge of peace. They showed themselves for the manipulators they were and my only sorrow is I did not see it for myself in time."

"I state now that this government is still of the people, by the people, and for the people. Yet it is stronger than before. The rot and corruption is now cut out and we can stride forward. Stride united in purpose and in vision. I ask all of you to join me for I want there to be a better galaxy for not only you but for your children and my children as well."

Speech made by First Citizen Anakin Skywalker after his ascension to the position.

Qui-Gon's Force Ghost: *disappointed tone* "My congratulations, on succeeding Palpatine as Emperor...of the first Galactic Empire, I believe he called it."
Darth Vader: *side-eyes Qui-Gon* "Emperor? Empire? I won't betray Padme's ideals like he did...but the Republic needs firm leadership. You, of all people, should know that. That's why, going forward, I'll be the First Citizen of the Republic, and the leader it needs to move forward."

 

[Bacle]

So I have just learned an interesting piece of geographical info that I think SW fans will get a chuckle from.

There is a place called the Vader Peit Wind Farm in Aruba.

 

[Skallagrim]

So I have just learned an interesting piece of geographical info that I think SW fans will get a chuckle from.

There is a place called the Vader Peit Wind Farm in Aruba.

Vader Piet is simply Dutch for "Father Pete".

In other news: if you're familiar with the planet Dromund Kaas, it might be amusing to learn that Kaas is Dutch for "Cheese". There's actually a lot of weird Dutch-isms in SW, and I think some of them are intentional. (For instance, there's the Vong shaper
Mezhan Kwaad. And Kwaad means "angry" or "evil" in Dutch.)

 

[Typhonis]

1950's Star Wars. Still better than what Disney has put out.

 

[Bacle]

Vader Piet is simply Dutch for "Father Pete".

In other news: if you're familiar with the planet Dromund Kaas, it might be amusing to learn that Kaas is Dutch for "Cheese". There's actually a lot of weird Dutch-isms in SW, and I think some of them are intentional. (For instance, there's the Vong shaper
Mezhan Kwaad. And Kwaad means "angry" or "evil" in Dutch.)

I figured, was more thinking about both Vader, and Peitt, when I saw it.