Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Scooby Doo]

Plot Twist the next Star Wars movie about Rey is her making a Matriarchal Jedi Order because it was the Patriarchy of the last Jedi Orders that resulted in them falling

Rey will only recruit female force sensitives and it's only when somehow Palpatine returns once more will she go to a secret Kaminoan facility to find a Clone of Anakin Skywalker but it's revealed the true version of Skywalker is trapped in a male body, with help from some scientists they give Anakin (Well that's a dead name so it's actually Annie) Skywalker gender reaffirming care and Annie Skywalker is able to become the true Chosen one at full power that she was always meant to be (Because the force is female and only females can tap to the full potential of the force)


WIth Rey and the rest of the Girl Boss slay Queen crew they beat the old white man to death with kicks and punches and save the world.



Ok Hollywood now give me my money 🤑

 

[S'task]

The Sith were defeated with what they couldn’t understand: true and selfless love. That’s both sickeningly sweet and quite profound in some ways.

That extends to Vader himself, by the way. If I remember correctly (according to George Lucas himself) the reason he could take Palpatine by such fatal surprise was because there wasn’t any anger or selfish desire involved. He just wanted to stop his son being hurt, and if it required his life to do so then so be it (the Devil figure of Star Wars was ultimately destroyed by a father’s love).

Anakin’s attachment saved him, his child, and the Galaxy in that moment. A bit of a repudiation of the Post Rusaan Order in and of itself.

And this exact thing is where you see the Christian influence in Star Wars that most people forget / try and write out in favor of a Taoist / Buddhist interpretation.

"Greater love has no one than this, that a person will lay down his life for his friends." - John 15:13.

The idea of sacrificial love, while looked on positively by most other cultures, is a core construction of the Christian worldview and the fact that it was this kind of love and relationship that redeemed Anakin and defeated the Emperor, that this is what everything turned on, is purely an echo of Christianity within Star Wars that so many seem desperate to remove.

 

[Bacle]

Actually, Dromund Kaas was known to the Post-Ruusan Jedi Order, and the Jedi Shadows regularly checked the system. So much so, that IIRC, one of Dooku's first acts as Darth Tyranus was to delete Dromund Kaas' location from the Temple archives, along with those of Kamino. Likewise for Ziost's coordinates. Strangely enough, not Korriban's...unless Yoda used Force Navigation to reach the planet.



They apparently pushed credit completely to the Massassi, who were treated as Yavin natives enslaved first by Naga Sadow and then by Exar Kun. Ignoring the fact that Massassi were Sith in the purest form of the term, but I imagine this helped the lie by putting a grain of truth at its core.



Not so sure about the Green Jedi, but remember that the Green Jedi were essentially the last holdout of the Pre-Ruusan Order by the time of the Clone Wars. They were regarded as borderline heretical by the mainstream Order, but the Green Jedi's ties to the Corellian government, and that same government's fiercely-independent streak and protectiveness of unique features of Corellian society and culture, meant they could do little about it. Corellia's senators would just raise a fuss in the Senate and drown the mainstream Order in red tape.

Basically, too much trouble, and since the Green Jedi tended to keep to themselves on Corellia or operated in tandem with Corellian agencies, they were left alone by the mainstream Order.

For their part, the Green Jedi historically regarded themselves as Corellian first, and Jedi second, and so have always been distant with the mainstream Order. That said, the post-Ruusan Order's downplaying of the Army of Light's heroism and sacrifices (and outright villification of the Jedi Lords) earned them the contempt of the Green Jedi. Unsurprisingly, considering Corellian cultural trends, the Green Jedi had a great deal of respect for the Jedi Lords, and their legacy being cast aside was something that deeply offended the Green Jedi.

So, even if the Green Jedi knew, they might not have been inclined to share with - from their perspective - those sanctimonious assholes from Coruscant.

Korriban was also known to the Clone Wars era Jedi well enough that it was effectively useless to Palp's, and the Sith ghosts there were straight up hostile to Palp's the single time he ventured there.

I'm kinda surprised Palp's didn't order the old Sith Tombs Based Delta Zero'd, once he knew the spirits within were hostile to him.

So I'm guess Dooku/Palp's felt deleting Korriban's location might actually raise red flags, where as they didn't expect anyone would know about Kamino if he deleted the records

 

[Bacle]

And on the topic of 'forgotten' weapons/sites in SW, I find it kinda amazing no one figured out what Centerpoint was/the Corellian Repulsors were till Thracken's faction started fucking with them.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

So in essence, the Green Jedi very much carried on the Jedi Order's historic role in the Old Republic, except downsized to Corellia?

And having read into it, it tickles me pink that this last remnant of the pre-Ruusan Jedi Order ultimately (as an institution, though the Empire devastated their numbers) outlived the Post-Ruusan Order.

Yeah, the post-Ruusan Order died with the Old Republic, with their successors reverting back to the old ways from before the Ruusan Reformations. Sure, some ultra-orthodox types eventually reared their heads, trying to once again impose age limitations and semi-celibacy rules*, but Luke always shut down the former, and pushed for a compromise about the latter. That is, Jedi could have families, but they must show they're able to balance their duties to the Order and their families.

*IIRC, some members of the post-Ruusan Order at one point wanted complete celibacy, but even the High Council baulked as they suspected at least half the Order would mutiny and just walk out if they tried to enforce such a rule. In the end, they had to settle for the 'no families' thing, and just looked the other way at Jedi having affairs on the side.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Yoda might not have known either, since he was caught by surprise by the existence of Force Ghosts during the Clone Wars

That's likely because Lucas's idea seems to have leaned with Qui Gon being the first Jedi to discover how to become a Force Ghost with all the ghosts seen in the OT having died after Qui Gon made his "discovery". Or at least I haven't seen anything to suggest Lucas explicitly acknowledge any before Qui Gon. The latter's conversation with Yoda, in the deleted film scene and the novelization from what I remember, contain no hint anyone else has done it before him.



Which was the pitfall of the EU. Lucas could wake up one morning and decide a "1000 years" sounds cooler than a "1000 generations" and force a rewrite of the entire established history up to that point.

 

[Bigking321]

I really hate the force ghost technique needs to be learned thing.

It implies that it's more involved than powerful force users can communicate with other force users after death either for a directed purpose or because of emotional connections.

And that it was recently discovered and it's a technique that can be learned even after death since Anakin uses it at the end of return of the jedi and he surely didn't learn it when he was Vader. He had to have learned it in the few hours he was dead before the party.

So it swings back around to why don't they teach the technique to all the dead jedi in force afterlife since being dead isn't a problem.

They tried to solve the problem of why all the prequel jedi don't have force ghosts and in doing so created the problem of why don't they teach all the dead jedi how to have force ghosts and why don't those that do have it communicate effectively with it. Like why doesn't Anakin that clearly knows the technique tell Luke anything about Palpatine not being dead or how to get to Exogal or... anything useful at all.

 

[Jormungandr]

I really hate the force ghost technique needs to be learned thing.

It implies that it's more involved than powerful force users can communicate with other force users after death either for a directed purpose or because of emotional connections.

And that it was recently discovered and it's a technique that can be learned even after death since Anakin uses it at the end of return of the jedi and he surely didn't learn it when he was Vader. He had to have learned it in the few hours he was dead before the party.

So it swings back around to why don't they teach the technique to all the dead jedi in force afterlife since being dead isn't a problem.

They tried to solve the problem of why all the prequel jedi don't have force ghosts and in doing so created the problem of why don't they teach all the dead jedi how to have force ghosts and why don't those that do have it communicate effectively with it. Like why doesn't Anakin that clearly knows the technique tell Luke anything about Palpatine not being dead or how to get to Exogal or... anything useful at all.

Also doesn't explain all the angry Sith ghosts stalking around various worlds and Dark Side nexuses. Even in Disney's shit canon we have Sith Lord ghosts lurking on "Moriband" (seriously? Moriband? smfh).

 

[Bigking321]

It worked fine before.

There weren't a massive amount of force ghosts because Luke didn't have any connection to them and/or that the force didn't need there to be since just Obi-wan was enough to provide guidance with happy cameos from Yoda and Anakin.

Someone like Obi-wan, Yoda, or Ashoka might see prequel force ghosts. But probably not often. Only if they needed some guidance or something.

Heck. We see Yoda interacting with Obi-wans ghost. Yoda didn't seem surprised or concerned in the OT. Like this was just a jedi thing. You sometimes get interactions with dead jedi. No big deal. Well... to jedi anyway.

Sigh. Lucas took something that wasn't broken and broke it trying to fix it. Just like midichlorians...

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

I really hate the force ghost technique needs to be learned thing.

It implies that it's more involved than powerful force users can communicate with other force users after death either for a directed purpose or because of emotional connections.

And that it was recently discovered and it's a technique that can be learned even after death since Anakin uses it at the end of return of the jedi and he surely didn't learn it when he was Vader. He had to have learned it in the few hours he was dead before the party.

Well it being a recent, learned thing does kind of jive with Obi-Wan's "strike me down" comment in ANH which was presumably in relation to becoming a Force Ghost.

Presumably Obi-Wan, Yoda and possibly even Qui Gon helped Anakin "crossover" when he died due to his redemption. This might even explain why Obi-Wan, and Qui Gon before him, initially only could manifest as a voice and only later gained a physical appearance while Yoda and Anakin seemed to master that almost instantly. They had more "help" ascending and didn't have to spend as much time putting themselves back together.

 

[Blasterbot]

force ghosts?

 

[Jormungandr]

force ghosts?

"And you get a lightsaber; and you get a lightsaber; and you get a lightsaber..."

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

That's likely because Lucas's idea seems to have leaned with Qui Gon being the first Jedi to discover how to become a Force Ghost with all the ghosts seen in the OT having died after Qui Gon made his "discovery". Or at least I haven't seen anything to suggest Lucas explicitly acknowledge any before Qui Gon. The latter's conversation with Yoda, in the deleted film scene and the novelization from what I remember, contain no hint anyone else has done it before him.



Which was the pitfall of the EU. Lucas could wake up one morning and decide a "1000 years" sounds cooler than a "1000 generations" and force a rewrite of the entire established history up to that point.

Then I guess it's a good thing I don't give a damn what he thinks anymore.

Well it being a recent, learned thing does kind of jive with Obi-Wan's "strike me down" comment in ANH which was presumably in relation to becoming a Force Ghost.

Even without that, it already works in the context of 'there is no death, there is the Force'.

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Korriban was also known to the Clone Wars era Jedi well enough that it was effectively useless to Palp's, and the Sith ghosts there were straight up hostile to Palp's the single time he ventured there.

I'm kinda surprised Palp's didn't order the old Sith Tombs Based Delta Zero'd, once he knew the spirits within were hostile to him.

Eh, Sith ghosts being hostile to living Sith is pretty much par the course. If anything, Sidious would have been suspicious if they were all friendly and accepting of him. Instead, their attitude is pretty much what he'd expect, and that he'd have to threaten and bargain his way to getting anything out of them. This is pretty much what happened in Dark Empire, with the Sith ghosts offering him Vader's unused tomb when he asked for knowledge to repair his last clone body. When Sidious refused, they just told him that in lieu of a soulless clone body (and unwilling to risk a spiritual battle for control of an adult Force-sensitive body), go and possess an infant Force-sensitive instead.

Granted, there was an element of mockery there, since IIRC, they greeted Sidious on his arrival at the Great Temple (i.e. the old Sith Imperial Academy) with "Oh Emperor of numberless worlds...have you come to take your place among us?"

Funny thing is, when you think about it, only the 'New' Sith could be called obsessed with actual immortality. I mean, the Old Sith also chased after it, but for many, they were content with 'traditional' immortality. That is, to be remembered, and spoken of with awe and honor by future generations, with the greatest of their kind being granted a place in the Valley of the Dark Lords. That, and they knew for a fact that life after death was a thing, as was the possibility of return therefrom. IIRC, there was even a time when the Dark Council grew suspicious about how one of their members seemed to be taking instructions from someone else, and when they investigated, they discovered said Dark Councilor communing with his mother's ghost, a former Dark Councilor herself. The rest of the affair was covered up, but it was apparently a common anecdote to the Sith of the reconstituted Empire, providing proof of life after death and even how death was just another realm to rule over and from for the Sith.

In hindsight, the Sith ghosts offering Sidious a place in the Valley of the Dark Lords was the answer to his plea for help. You are immortal already, the greatest of the Dark Lords of the Line of Bane, so come, take your place on Korriban, as you deserve. His rejection thereof and the subsequent suggestion he possess an infant instead was pretty much a backhanded insult, that Sidious for all his power and might was blind and small-minded.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Then I guess it's a good thing I don't give a damn what he thinks anymore.

Well if you want to talk about the EU, it matters since it had to conform to his view. Again the EU invented an entire reformation just to align itself with a throw away line from AOTC. So clearly Lucas's word holds weight.

At the very least its important to better understand Star Wars, the viewpoints involved in its creation and evolution. That understanding Lucas's view better explains Yoda apparent ignorance of force ghosts over your "movie jedi are just ignorant and misinformed".

Even without that, it already works in the context of 'there is no death, there is the Force'.

Yes, but the context of that was in relation to on whether force ghosts are a learned technique or natural to any strong user of the force in which the line makes more sense as a learned technique in my opinion.

There was also the larger point that Lucas's view is perfectly consistent with the OT films from every force ghost we see being connected in some way to Qui Gon to Obi-Wan's line. Which doesn't mean you have to like Lucas's view but it doesn't ruin the films either.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

So here's a what if I don't think has been asked in this thread, apologies if I missed it, but let's say Obi-Wan's mission to Utapau goes horribly wrong and General Grievous manages to kill him. How do the events of the series play out from that PoD?

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

So here's a what if I don't think has been asked in this thread, apologies if I missed it, but let's say Obi-Wan's mission to Utapau goes horribly wrong and General Grievous manages to kill him. How do the events of the series play out from that PoD?

Not much really changes, the Grand Plan's too along to really stop, and this might even give Sidious another way to drive a wedge between Anakin and the Order. That is, the Chancellor wanted him to be the one to deal with Grievous, only for the High Council to override the Chancellor, and send Obi-Wan instead.

In short, Anakin could easily be made to believe it's the Jedi's fault that Obi-Wan is dead. You can imagine how that would go when he finds Sidious at Windu's bladepoint.

 

[StormEagle]

Not much really changes, the Grand Plan's too along to really stop, and this might even give Sidious another way to drive a wedge between Anakin and the Order. That is, the Chancellor wanted him to be the one to deal with Grievous, only for the High Council to override the Chancellor, and send Obi-Wan instead.

In short, Anakin could easily be made to believe it's the Jedi's fault that Obi-Wan is dead. You can imagine how that would go when he finds Sidious at Windu's bladepoint.

It also means that Mustafar never happens and Vader will be completely intact.

How long will Palpatine’s rule last with a non-crippled Vader waiting for the first sign of weakness?

 

[Jaenera Targaryen]

It also means that Mustafar never happens and Vader will be completely intact.

How long will Palpatine’s rule last with a non-crippled Vader waiting for the first sign of weakness?

I'd give it a decade, at most. Probably less, maybe even as early as once Sidious has dealt with Yoda, and before he has a chance to recover (or prepare contingencies to resurrect himself), Vader appears and cuts him down. Mas Amedda immediately tries to curry favor ala that fat guy from Demolition Man, i.e. "I am a very capable administrator, Lord Vader, and I would very happy to continue my service under your reign."

Dunno if Vader would actually claim the title of Emperor in such a scenario, in fact, I think it's more likely that he'll restore a facade of democracy, only with himself as Supreme Commander and de facto military dictator backed by a rubberstamp Senate. The real flashpoint here is Padme, who will almost certainly never go along with Vader's tyranny. She probably still dies in childbirth, but Vader will have his twins, and Vader being Vader, will probably do away with the Rule of Two entirely, and go back to the Old Sith tradition of Sith bloodlines. Both Luke and Leia get Sith training, and will be expected to marry powerful Force-sensitives so as to maximize the potential of their bloodlines, and maybe become co-chancellors of the Sith-dominated Republic in the future. Co-consuls, even, overseeing the Senate while Vader directly oversees the military.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

Not much really changes, the Grand Plan's too along to really stop, and this might even give Sidious another way to drive a wedge between Anakin and the Order. That is, the Chancellor wanted him to be the one to deal with Grievous, only for the High Council to override the Chancellor, and send Obi-Wan instead.

In short, Anakin could easily be made to believe it's the Jedi's fault that Obi-Wan is dead. You can imagine how that would go when he finds Sidious at Windu's bladepoint.

Fully agree there, the ROTS novelization even goes into how the "perfect jedi trap" is one that it doesn't matter if it truly succeeds or not because all you needed was the Jedi to be distracted for that moment.

I suppose my thoughts/curious of would having General Grievous around help the Seppies post ROTS and who would a non-crippled Anakin do to the course of events as @StormEagle suggested.