Star Wars Star Wars Discussion Thread - LET THE PAST D-! Oh, wait, nevermind

[Jaenera Targaryen]

Vader Piet is simply Dutch for "Father Pete".

In other news: if you're familiar with the planet Dromund Kaas, it might be amusing to learn that Kaas is Dutch for "Cheese". There's actually a lot of weird Dutch-isms in SW, and I think some of them are intentional. (For instance, there's the Vong shaper
Mezhan Kwaad. And Kwaad means "angry" or "evil" in Dutch.)

A part of me wants to be angry, as a long-time Sith partisan and SWTOR player...but I'm too old and mature for that, so I will just laugh, since it really is hilarious

 

[Husky_Khan]

Uh oh.



Looks like it's official. Head canon is canon! Good bye Sequel Trilogy (among other things).

 

[Zachowon]

That is a good thing then lol

 

[DarthOne]

Uh oh.



Looks like it's official. Head canon is canon! Good bye Sequel Trilogy (among other things).

One of the few times I will be glad of headcanon for something.

 

[Skallagrim]

Ten years, my friends. Ten years today, since Disney cast aside the Expanded Universe. Ten years since they re-branded it as "Legends", and then basically stopped adding anything to it.

Ten years, and still they have never managed to move beyond it. They threw it away, but they didn't have anything better to serve as a replacement. They desperately appropriate bits and pieces of the EU they first derided, and they try to re-animate these individual bits. But without their proper context, they don't resonate. Disney's Thrawn is just a blue-skinned guy.

They've created a zombie canon, shambling along, with no particular direction in sight-- except the dead end that is the hollow finale of the sequel trilogy. All while the EU, the real expansion the epic saga beyond the Lucas-era films, remains alive in spite of careless neglect. It still finds new fans every day; those who seek it out because they can't stand Disney's crap anymore.

Anyway, here's to all the creators who added to the EU. They enriched Star Wars, they literally added millennia worth of stories. They genuinely expanded the universe of this great adventure saga. Disney doesn't offer stories, but "content". Disney doesn't build a universe, but a "franchise". I know what I prefer.

 

[DarthOne]

Ten years, my friends. Ten years today, since Disney cast aside the Expanded Universe. Ten years since they re-branded it as "Legends", and then basically stopped adding anything to it.

Ten years, and still they have never managed to move beyond it. They threw it away, but they didn't have anything better to serve as a replacement. They desperately appropriate bits and pieces of the EU they first derided, and they try to re-animate these individual bits. But without their proper context, they don't resonate. Disney's Thrawn is just a blue-skinned guy.

They've created a zombie canon, shambling along, with no particular direction in sight-- except the dead end that is the hollow finale of the sequel trilogy. All while the EU, the real expansion the epic saga beyond the Lucas-era films, remains alive in spite of careless neglect. It still finds new fans every day; those who seek it out because they can't stand Disney's crap anymore.

Anyway, here's to all the creators who added to the EU. They enriched Star Wars, they literally added millennia worth of stories. They genuinely expanded the universe of this great adventure saga. Disney doesn't offer stories, but "content". Disney doesn't build a universe, but a "franchise". I know what I prefer.

Long live the Expanded Universe! Long live Legends!

 

[Captain X]

Ten years, my friends. Ten years today, since Disney cast aside the Expanded Universe. Ten years since they re-branded it as "Legends", and then basically stopped adding anything to it.

Ten years, and still they have never managed to move beyond it. They threw it away, but they didn't have anything better to serve as a replacement. They desperately appropriate bits and pieces of the EU they first derided, and they try to re-animate these individual bits. But without their proper context, they don't resonate. Disney's Thrawn is just a blue-skinned guy.

They've created a zombie canon, shambling along, with no particular direction in sight-- except the dead end that is the hollow finale of the sequel trilogy. All while the EU, the real expansion the epic saga beyond the Lucas-era films, remains alive in spite of careless neglect. It still finds new fans every day; those who seek it out because they can't stand Disney's crap anymore.

Anyway, here's to all the creators who added to the EU. They enriched Star Wars, they literally added millennia worth of stories. They genuinely expanded the universe of this great adventure saga. Disney doesn't offer stories, but "content". Disney doesn't build a universe, but a "franchise". I know what I prefer.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

They've created a zombie canon, shambling along, with no particular direction in sight-- except the dead end that is the hollow finale of the sequel trilogy. All while the EU, the real expansion the epic saga beyond the Lucas-era films, remains alive in spite of careless neglect. It still finds new fans every day; those who seek it out because they can't stand Disney's crap anymore.

Then our victory is all but complete. Give it another ten years and I think Disney Wars will be nought but a bad memory.

Long live the Expanded Universe.

 

[Agent23]

Then our victory is all but complete. Give it another ten years and I think Disney Wars will be nought but a bad memory.

I hope that in less Disney will be a bad memory.

Fuck dewokification and reform, let the whole place burn and be remembered in infamy.

Even it's ashes need to be salted to remind other fools that the wages of woke is not just broke, but utter ruination.

Long live the Expanded Universe.

Quoted asbtruth britbong!

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

The EU had it share of good stories in it but ultimately I think it would have been better if they'd stuck to the "Parallel Universe" as Lucas called it. Establish it is its own separate thing, a what-if of sorts that uses the original films as a launch pad, that didn't have to reflect anything beyond the OT films. That would have spared them headaches with the PT or, even worse, the ST when inevitably, whether its Lucas or Disney, the films wanted to expand upon the original story.

As it was the EU got caught in a bad half-way spot where it was supposed to reflect the Film franchise yet also wanted to tell its own stories and had to trip over themselves trying to retcon things every time Lucas elaborated on almost anything.

The other alternative, if you really wanted to keep canon with the films, is I think placing the EU either far enough ahead or far enough back where it wouldn't interfere with the "present" timeline.

 

[Skallagrim]

The EU had it share of good stories in it but ultimately I think it would have been better if they'd stuck to the "Parallel Universe" as Lucas called it. Establish it is its own separate thing, a what-if of sorts that uses the original films as a launch pad, that didn't have to reflect anything beyond the OT films. That would have spared them headaches with the PT or, even worse, the ST when inevitably, whether its Lucas or Disney, the films wanted to expand upon the original story.

As it was the EU got caught in a bad half-way spot where it was supposed to reflect the Film franchise yet also wanted to tell its own stories and had to trip over themselves trying to retcon things every time Lucas elaborated on almost anything.

The other alternative, if you really wanted to keep canon with the films, is I think placing the EU either far enough ahead or far enough back where it wouldn't interfere with the "present" timeline.

The pre-1999 EU actually had it baked in that they wouldn't elaborate on the prequel era, and that worked fine. Except Lucas, you know... changed his mind on some key things. He literally told Zahn that the Clone Wars happened 35 years before ANH (and presumably agreed, at least implicitly -- since he okayed the plot for the books -- that the clones were referenced as the 'baddies'). And then when he started writing the prequels, he changed things up. That can happen, but as far as "doing your best to elegantly weave things together" goes, the EU was a real masterpiece. Hundreds of authors, and still-- most things really do fit together.

There was real respect for each other (most of the time). Authors read each others' work, and elaborated on things referenced in previous stories. Just look at an absolute walking encyclopedia like Luceno, who managed feats of canon-welding not seen before or since. And when authors didn't respect their peers (*cough*Traviss*cough*), a lot of fans were decidedly not on board with that kind of bullshit. Fans can tell when the creators love the world they're working in.

What I'm saying is: the EU was a multi-decade collaborative work of love, and it shows. That's something we need, to connect to the material. The Disney stuff feels -- at least very often -- like focus-group-tested, designed-by-committee corporate bullshit. And that just doesn't work.

Then our victory is all but complete. Give it another ten years and I think Disney Wars will be nought but a bad memory.

I hope that in less Disney will be a bad memory.

Regrettably, Disney is like the hoarding dragon of the old stories-- always greedy, always unwilling to let go of anything. They'd rather bury it in a copyright vault than let anyone else have it. But I hope that their poor decisions eventually force them to shrink as a company, and to sell off other companies they've bought up (like LucasFilm). And that someone who cares about it gets to run the show, then.

With the main actors getting on in age (and in the case of Carrie Fisher, passed away) I hold that the ideal strategy, now, would be to set up a Star Wars Animated Universe. Base it on the old EU, iron out the most glaring wrinkles, get rid of the few cases of too obvious continuity snarl, and decline to include the really poorly received works in the adaptation. And then... go for it. There's material for countless series. From Dawn of the Jedi to an adapted (and this time, not truncated) version of Legacy. Thousands of years of stories. It's all there. And you know the fans would love it.

 

[Lord Sovereign]

I hold that the ideal strategy, now, would be to set up a Star Wars Animated Universe. Base it on the old EU, iron out the most glaring wrinkles, get rid of the few cases of too obvious continuity snarl, and decline to include the really poorly received works in the adaptation. And then... go for it. There's material for countless series. From Dawn of the Jedi to an adapted (and this time, not truncated) version of Legacy. Thousands of years of stories. It's all there. And you know the fans would love it.

Animation is the future as far as I’m concerned. Imagination if the great limitation of it, although budget does play a part.

And for this project, get the boys from Batman: The Animated Series. Imagine Grand Admiral Thrawn appearing in the art style of the earlier seasons.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

The pre-1999 EU actually had it baked in that they wouldn't elaborate on the prequel era, and that worked fine.

Eh, that's kind of what I'm talking about. Either the EU should have been its own thing, and therefore free to depict the prequal era because it would never be meant to be the same prequel era as Lucas's, or pick an era so far removed from canon it didn't matter what they did.

As it was the EU kind of tried to have its cake and eat it too which bite it in the ass. Too much of its identity was invested in being the continuation of the films, making an Earth-Two alternate continuity difficult to pull off when the ST finally came, while also having built up its own unique world that couldn't be made to fit with Canon.

but as far as "doing your best to elegantly weave things together" goes, the EU was a real masterpiece. Hundreds of authors, and still-- most things really do fit together.

For something done up in the 90's, back before multi-media projects were really a thing, yes its impressive it manages to hold together as well as it does but even out the gate we'd have conflicting depictions like the Thrawn trilogy depicting a singular, if diminished, empire and the Courtship of Princess Leia which depicts one fragmented by warlords. To say nothing of how Zsinj was depicted in his debut, and death, versus how his character would evolve in later works. Retcons were always a part of the EU as bad if not worse than Lucas and his ever changing mind in regards to the Films.

What I'm saying is: the EU was a multi-decade collaborative work of love, and it shows. That's something we need, to connect to the material. The Disney stuff feels -- at least very often -- like focus-group-tested, designed-by-committee corporate bullshit. And that just doesn't work.

I won't deny Disney's better at pumping out "content" then stories but my point was more that even if Lucas had never sold to Disney the EU would still have the issue of not fitting with Star Wars. Hell even if he never made the sequels, The Clone Wars effectively killed it.

 

[f1onagher]

Ten years, my friends. Ten years today, since Disney cast aside the Expanded Universe. Ten years since they re-branded it as "Legends", and then basically stopped adding anything to it.

Ten years, and still they have never managed to move beyond it. They threw it away, but they didn't have anything better to serve as a replacement. They desperately appropriate bits and pieces of the EU they first derided, and they try to re-animate these individual bits. But without their proper context, they don't resonate. Disney's Thrawn is just a blue-skinned guy.

They've created a zombie canon, shambling along, with no particular direction in sight-- except the dead end that is the hollow finale of the sequel trilogy. All while the EU, the real expansion the epic saga beyond the Lucas-era films, remains alive in spite of careless neglect. It still finds new fans every day; those who seek it out because they can't stand Disney's crap anymore.

Anyway, here's to all the creators who added to the EU. They enriched Star Wars, they literally added millennia worth of stories. They genuinely expanded the universe of this great adventure saga. Disney doesn't offer stories, but "content". Disney doesn't build a universe, but a "franchise". I know what I prefer.

Pretty sure I've dropped this video earlier, but its worth resharing if so.



I encourage you to watch when you have the time, but the gist of it is that Star Wars has become modern mythology and like mythology there are a lot of conflicting takes on it. For all of its many, many flaws and missteps the original Expanded Universe has weathered the test of time due to how rich and authentic it is, giving its fans unending material to enjoy and use for their own projects. Just look at all of the Empire at War Expanded mods to get a glimpse of that.

Disney canon on the other hand is... hollow. Derivative, unimaginative, and most importantly incredibly aged. By thrusting so many contemporary political affects into their works Disney has ensured that they will age like milk and be inaccessible to future audiences with different zeitgeists. Disney Wars does have a few good beats, but these beats are all remixes of Legends material and without exception poorly done. Its clearly the work of board rooms, focus groups, and struggle session politics and that provides no soil to grow in.

 

[Skallagrim]

Eh, that's kind of what I'm talking about. Either the EU should have been its own thing, and therefore free to depict the prequal era because it would never be meant to be the same prequel era as Lucas's, or pick an era so far removed from canon it didn't matter what they did.

As it was the EU kind of tried to have its cake and eat it too which bite it in the ass. Too much of its identity was invested in being the continuation of the films, making an Earth-Two alternate continuity difficult to pull off when the ST finally came, while also having built up its own unique world that couldn't be made to fit with Canon.

These are two different points. On the first-- that's a matter of preference, and my own feeling is that the way they did it was better than that "Star Trek approach", which is pretty much what you describe.

On the second point: nobody could anticipate the whole setting being purchased by Disney and getting rebooted. Nobody expected sequels, either, because by the time the EU's approach was outlined, Lucas had decided that he wasn't going to do sequels. In fact, he okayed the Thrawn Trilogy because he made that decision.

It's easy to critique in restrospect, but I remain a great admirer of the work that was done with the EU. Precisely because of this approach, it never really felt as "lesser". It was SW, but on the page instead of on the screen. Which is why to many fans, the things that happened in the EU are the things that happened. That's the real SW, and what Disney puts out is poor-quality fanfic with a meaningless "official" label on it.

(None of which suggests that there can't be different "takes" on SW than what the EU outlined. The EU was pretty much running into trouble -- at least in the post-RotJ era -- during its last years. But replacing it with the shit-tier sequels was by no means an improvement. I'd have liked to see more interesting approaches. Projects like Visions are worthwhile. And in the way they made the comic The Star Wars based on an early draft for ANH, I would love to have seen one or more such comics based on Lucas's various sequel ideas through the years. That kind of thing would have some originality, at least!)

Pretty sure I've dropped this video earlier, but its worth resharing if so.



I encourage you to watch when you have the time, but the gist of it is that Star Wars has become modern mythology and like mythology there are a lot of conflicting takes on it.

Yeah, I really appreciate his takes on things. I think I was first sent to his channel when you first linked to him, actually. So thanks for that!

 

[Agent23]

*SNIP*

Lukas was turning into a senile old idiot even before he sold his IPs to Disney.

Frankly, I consider the prequels very lame and I would not shed a tear if I see them go.

As to your dragon analogy, well it is just bad.

Disney is a for profit corporation.

It is supposed to generate product and sell it to make money to pay its debts and dividends and fund more projects.

Currently they are hemorrhaging money and losing investor confidence.

Your dragon could live indefinitely, hoard stuff and eat the local wildlife to sustain itself.

This dragon actually gains its power and sustenance from entertaining the villagers.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

These are two different points. On the first-- that's a matter of preference, and my own feeling is that the way they did it was better than that "Star Trek approach", which is pretty much what you describe.

There are similarities through the "Star Trek approach" largely avoided a wider continuity, for the most part. Obviously that wasn't a 100%, writers did build upon their own and each other works, but broadly speaking a trek novel was designed to be pretty stand alone and connected more to the series than an "expanded universe".

What I'm suggesting is pretty much the EU we got just acknowledged from the outset it was in its own continuity from the films much like how Marvel's 616 universe and the MCU are separate.

On the second point: nobody could anticipate the whole setting being purchased by Disney and getting rebooted. Nobody expected sequels, either, because by the time the EU's approach was outlined, Lucas had decided that he wasn't going to do sequels. In fact, he okayed the Thrawn Trilogy because he made that decision.

The issue through isn't any one particular event or trilogy being created. Its more the hybrid continuity the EU went with where the Thrawn Trilogy can be made solely because Lucas, at that moment, doesn't think he'll ever write those stories. That it is both bound by the film continuity but apart from it.

That the issues and the inherent contradictions of its status that made Disney's decision to ax the EU were present all the way back in its foundation.

It's easy to critique in restrospect, but I remain a great admirer of the work that was done with the EU. Precisely because of this approach, it never really felt as "lesser". It was SW, but on the page instead of on the screen. Which is why to many fans, the things that happened in the EU are the things that happened. That's the real SW,

But replacing it with the shit-tier sequels was by no means an improvement.

I feel you are trying to force a qualitative comparison when that was not my intention and, in my view, largely beyond the scope of my point. Disney canon is, for the most part, a joke and would be whether there was an EU or not. That it is not "real Star Wars" not because it disregarded the expanded universe but because it failed to understand the OT and just blindly copied it like some cheap Chinese knockoff.

Now on a personal, subjective, level I will not note that many of the elements I dislike about the ST such as the "Empire" still existing decades past ROTJ rehashing the Civil War, having yet another super weapon or Emperor Palpatine just being alive again are all lifted from the EU.

On the subject of the EU and its approach, yes it worked wonderfully in the 90's but was doomed from the moment new Film continuity started being produced. That, regardless of how it felt, the EU was made "lesser" by this approach always having to conform to Film material. That Lucas more or less viewed the EU exactly the same as Disney does, a boneyard to pick the odd idea he likes and discard the rest.

 

[Skallagrim]

What I'm suggesting is pretty much the EU we got just acknowledged from the outset it was in its own continuity from the films much like how Marvel's 616 universe and the MCU are separate.

That's pretty much what I'd have in mind for a hypothetical SW Animated Universe, but that approach has the advantage that the film saga is done now (and in practice, has been since 2005). Back in 1989 (when the co-ordinated EU was thought up), they were living with the fact that three more films were going to be made (in fact, Lucas decided to commit to those at the exact same time). And then they had to choose: either go for an EU that was always non-canonical and thus free to contradict the three future films... or don't mention details about the prequel era, so that everything can mostly just fit together, even after the prequels are made.

They chose the latter. Lucas outright insisted on it. And I really think he was right, even though it didn't work perfectly. It worked well enough, and I think it was a way better attitude than an approach that would always shunt the EU off into complete "non-canon" status. I think that if they'd done that, the EU would have been far less impactful for the fandom.

You may disagree. That's fine. But I really see no reason to keep debating this particular point.

But again: what you suggest is pretty much the approach I'd also take now, since there's presently an old EU, and there's Disney SW. If you add anything to the EU continuity, it will obviously ignore all Disney-era films. And if we create a third continuity in the form of an animated universe (as I suggested), then that will be free to ignore both other continuities... even though I'd personally base it very directly on the old EU.

I feel you are trying to force a qualitative comparison when that was not my intention and, in my view, largely beyond the scope of my point.

I believe that you were responding to my post (here), and I was going for that comparison from the start. So forgive me for being at bit blunt, but you're the one forcing your preferred topic/viewpoint on the discussion here, not the other way around. The comparison you say you want to ignore was literally the substance of my original post.

 

[Bacle]

Uh oh.



Looks like it's official. Head canon is canon! Good bye Sequel Trilogy (among other things).

Fine, then it's my headcanon Isard didn't die when she was shot and was instead held prisoner/pumped for info for years, only serviced/seen by droids, in the bow of the Lusankya until it rammed itself in that Vong Worldship.

Edit: The more I think about it, this would actually fit canon very well.

How else would the New Republic have been able to keep Lusankya from falling into Thrawn or the Reborn Empire's hands, than by having someone onboard who might have known Palp's had something up his sleeve and what Thrawn's tactics/best way to hide from him might be.

How did Luke come to know there were possible cloning tanks on Courscant that Palp's might have been using; who else beside Pestage and Mas Ammedda would Palp's have possibly trusted with that sort of task. It would explain where Isard's own clone came from, too.

 

[Crom's Black Blade]

That's pretty much what I'd have in mind for a hypothetical SW Animated Universe

Of course, along with your idea to have spun the Legends into a proper, continuing, er, continuity rather than axing it. You talked about that on an earlier page, citing IIRC comics ability to have multiple realities and continuities without the audience being confused. Hence my somewhat surprise by you of all people's virile disagreement since it was, for the most part, a mirroring of your earlier ideas.

You may disagree. That's fine. But I really see no reason to keep debating this particular point.

I mean of course I "disagree". This entire chain started with you disagreeing with something I said. If I agreed with you I obviously wouldn't have said what I said in the first place.

It goes without saying you don't have to agree with me. Most people do that. But I do object to the implication I'm somehow forcing this discussion.

They chose the latter. Lucas outright insisted on it. And I really think he was right, even though it didn't work perfectly. It worked well enough, and I think it was a way better attitude than an approach that would always shunt the EU off into complete "non-canon" status.

Shrug. To me that only makes sense if Lucas was going to play ball. If it was mutual. The one-sided nature of the arrangement pretty much means it can only work if Lucas doesn't ever do anything. I mean we saw how well not depicting the Prequal era worked out for the pre-1999 EU.

I believe that you were responding to my post

Not directly nor specifically about the very particular qualitative comparison you seem to find so important. I didn't quote you or directly reference anything you said beyond the existence of the EU. My interest in the discussion being different matters entirely and, at the time, didn't think it was a particular hot take that the EU would have been better off if it had been its own thing rather than forced to twist to conform itself to the cgi Star Wars or what have you.